Haven333

[QUOTE=tomsteve;6653658] I wouldn't have asked her to marry me if I didn't have a genuine feeling I knew who she was

In your initial post, you emphasized two things - her physical beauty and your plan to take care of her financially (and thus the immasculating sting of her running off with a man who is wealthier than you are). It's clear you didn't know who she really is, which is okay - as people on this board show, that's common.

That said, I'd ponder to what degree your love for her was built around your self image. I think you wanted to be a successful man with a beautiful wife, and now that the beautiful wife part of that is gone, it's giving you an identity crisis for yourself.

Also, I think your wanting to take care of her was a key part of your relationship, so stepping back and letting her go is extra hard.

I'm glad you didn't send the puppy photo, as I think doing so would've been cruel to her. She needs to focus on herself, her recovery, and putting a life together. She doesn't need the ex she dumped sending her manipulative texts that rub in what she's lost.

GoodguyJoel

Whoa whoa, look, I may be off my rocker because of what happened but its not like I’m not trying to read every post and just glance past the ones I don’t like. I have taken to heart each one, and have taken them seriously. I get that there is lots i may not want to hear but is true regardless, and I’m trying to address as many as possible.

I will say that please remember that not every relationship is the same and that what I feel and know about my relationship is solely mine. I can grasp that there are elements of this person that I may have never truly understood, and can admit that her behavior recently is beyond terrible.

As for the puppy picture, there was no alterior motive to manipulate or rub in her face what she is missing, I just wanted to send a simple positive thought.

As for the beauty side of things, I’ve talked about this before. I didn’t care so much about this, just wanted to speak of her career and subsequent changes so we could discuss if that played a role in her drinking. I should hope I would be physically attracted to someone I wanted to spend my life with...but that was just part of who she was, not the whole. I don’t believe I ever gave the impression I wanted to be the shallow successful man with a trophy wife?! Any relationship should build self esteem, not break it. And it did until her abuse of alcohol became unsustainable. I helped her financially because she would do the same for me when her success was good, and I just was making grad student money. It was a two way street for the majority of the relationship. During my confusion of what was going on, and her behaviors after rehab do seem gold digger-like but that is why I asked all of you, to see if the brain can be so dramatically changed to draw out the worst in a person? I look at what has happened and can only assume this all got so out of control, so far fetched, so grandiose that she was helpless to even the highest trained therapist at that point of precontemplation. I also have to imagine she WILL see this as the biggest mistake of her life. Again, I will refer to what I know of our relationship and say it was a beautiful thing up until alcohol really kicked in full gear.

Please don’t assume I am shallow or a simpleton only looking for the answers I want or that I only paint the good side of things to ignore the bad. I mentioned how traumatic this all has been, and in processing it, I know I am confused and have been feeling like this is Civilian PTSD. I/we had so many good people, good events, good healthy care for one another until alcoholism took over. And although this is the past, it has only been still about 2 months since this happened. It’s not something I can just shove under the rug and call it a day. And now that she has failed again, and the drinking only got worse, I am saddened by this, not angry. And I do immensely care about her sobriety.

I just don’t know where she stands, the previous posters talking of the hazy mind set just reinforces that she isn’t in a place to see things clearly. And I get that I shouldn’t impose our relationship on her at this stage. But why is it so bad for me to want to reach out, or just send a positive thought? I haven’t said a thing to this person for a month, but she has tried to reach out to me numerous times, and we have no clue why. I have continued to do my things, and pursued my life, but is it really so bad to want to find out what’s going on? Especially now that she’s back in town? Or even to see what her plan is, or if there is a plan for rehab/AA?

AnvilheadII

I haven’t said a thing to this person for a month, but she has tried to reach out to me numerous times, and we have no clue why

drunk dialing?

Occam's Razor might apply here......if at least two explanations are possible, usually the simpler one, with fewer assumptions, is likely correct.

dandylion

Goodguy.....You have been hurt very deeply....wounded into your core.....after all, this is one of the most painful experiences that we can go through, in life.
This is going to take you quite a while to work your way through this....and, you will go through a whole spectrum of emotions, as that is happening....
I honestly, don't see anything that I would consider outside of the norm for the situation.....Feelings/emotions are what they are...they are all legitimate (managing them is another subject)....they belong to us and cannot be judged...
After one has bonded with their love object, and the bonds have been threatened or broken....one yearns intensely to connect to the love object...so much so that it can override almost anything else, at times.....
I have been there...so I know this to be true....and, I have walked beside many others who were going through this.....
My heart goes out to you....as a compassionate human being....

Around here, the advice is often given to...."take what you need and leave the rest".....

Lol...I must confess, that everytime I read one of your posts, this song pops into my head!!! I guess it must be because I think it captures where I think you must be, emotionally, at this time......?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVUOtH8feoI

Ariesagain

There are some things in life that we can’t fix. No amount of effort, intellectualizing, analysis, standard lowering, revisionism, or discussion on our part will change a reality that really, really sucks scissors.

That is possibly the single hardest of life’s lessons. It was (and remains so) for me.

Based on a ton of life experience painfully gained by people here, this situation from here looks like a problem you can’t fix and she doesn’t want to (she hurts people and LAUGHS about it???)

It sounds like you may want to conclude differently and try again. Please be careful...don’t comingle your finances or your living situation or really anything that could hurt your future.

Hope for the best...plan for the worst. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

Wishing you well.

OpheliaKatz

I'm so sorry. She doesn't love you. She never loved you. She was using you. So sorry. The same happened to me. It doesn't mean I don't love him, it just means it's over and I wasn't paying attention when it was happening to know that I should have never started the relationship.

I wouldn't judge you if you went back to her. I often think of going back to my A. Then I read SR and think of how sick (or dead) I'd be in 5 years if I did. It s*cks to hurt.

GoodguyJoel

You’re right. They are my own words. And I look at them, and see the decline of a person, her. Honestly, rather quickly too only heavy over the past year. I know there is nothing I can do, and don’t expect my involvement to change that, per se. I am the one living this and not forgetting a single memory. This is my dilemma. It’s a whirlwind of good and then bad. The more recent traits and behavior have never been displayed to anyone, and this is all new to see this unfold for everyone involved. The traits of drinking were starting to pop up long before me...but I didn’t see it for years because things were good, and she didn’t drink all the time. This “popping off” of crazy in rehab is so new and different, and it’s hard to say if she was acting as a dry drunk, or just plain thinking unclear/hazy. Now she hasn’t drank for a few days, and I don’t know if she plans for a real attempt at recovery. Or if she plans to involve me in anyway. Or if she is trying to get back with the guy. I am doing my thing...I am having fun with the dog today, but it still racks my mind very frequently. I am trying to avoid circular thinking, but this is why I ask if I should/should not get involved?

Im already in an emotional stew and can’t imagine I could be hurt more. So what is the risk? I’m not asking her to move back and just continue. I just want to share kindness and hope it could bring her to a pleasant place...to straighten her thoughts. But do you think it would only make things worse for her? Like I said, I don’t want to hurt her. I just wish I could bring back some positivity to a depressed mixed up person.

biminiblue

Yes. I think it would make things way worse for her. She has enough on her plate.

But more to the point, it would make things way worse for you.

It's over. Let it be over.

~Signed, Alcoholic/Codie in Recovery.

rae145

Quit worrying about making things worse for her. Do what you need to do for youself.
Believe me she aint and never has worried about making things worse for you. Why? Because she is entitled

tomsteve

maybe your unique and can do that.maybe youre an exception to the rule- if you have a read around here, you will read there have been HUNDREDS UPON HUNDREDS that TRIED that to no avail.
and sunk even deeper themselves.
thats just on this site alone.
as for me, there wasnt one person in the 7 billion on this planet that could do that until i wanted to straighten my thoughts out.
even then, someone that had NEVER been in my shoes, someone that has no clue what its like to be in the throws of alcoholism,someone that has no experience with the feeling i had, someone that isnt an alcoholic..............
they didnt have a thing i wanted to hear. they had no clue what i needed to hear. they had no clue how i needed to hear.

i wish you the best,joel, and truly hope and pray ya work on the addiction/obsession problem ya have.

Haven333

Straight talk - this is BS. I believe you consciously told yourself that you just wanted to send her positive thought, but come on. I assume she loved/loves this dog. Is a really cute photo of the dog, whom she hasn't seen in a couple of months and won't see ever again unless she interacts with you, a positive thought? Or would it just make her miss the dog more and feel even worse?

Subconsciously, this was a power play temptation on your part, and I'm glad you didn't give into it. She loves the dog. You control the dog. The only way she can see the dog again is by interacting with you. Your brain thought it'd be a good idea to remind her of this so that it'd increase the odds that she'd come back to you.

You say you're trying to avoid circular thinking, but I think you're so set on a certain narrative and self image that you aren't able to process and move forward.

As others have said, please seek out Al Anon and/or aggresive therapy.

GoodguyJoel

All valid comments, all realistic. No reason to argue, just people being straight forward. So thank you.

I thought I did mention in previous posts that I have been attending Al Anon since this happened. I have been seeing a counselor since the same time.

And the picture wouldn’t have been of the dog with her and I from the past, I wanted to send a cute one I took of just him from a few days ago. But who am I to say that I am not subconsciously doing something, hence it being subconscious.

If I wasn’t out with my parents today trying to have some positive fun, I would be reading all the new links. Rest assured when I sit at home alone tonight, I will.

I’m not trying to be a bad guy here. I’m not trying to obsess. I’m trying to get my life back and trying to understand how this can happen. I never dealt with addiction before this and I came to this great site looking for the shared wisdom of all of you while telling my story. I was raised to treat others the way I want to be treated, and altruistically I still want to be that even if I never receive the reciprocation. It’s not a wish to injure myself more, I just feel compelled to be good. Or at least try to be.

Still no word from her, and I haven’t said a thing or sent anything. I will keep it that way until I figure out my thoughts and inform my future actions.

DontRemember

Take the booze out of the picture here and what are you left with? A cheater that left you. You have to see that for what it is and get on with your life in a mentally healthy fashion. You're becoming obsessed with this woman that cheated on you multiple times. Come on,buddy.

Needabreak

This statement you made feels very manipulative to me, in a slippery, codependent way.

You treat others the way you want to be treated, not out of the goodness of your heart, but because you then expect them to treat you the same way.

Well, this woman is NOT treating you the way you would want to be treated, unless you have some inner self-hatred and need to be hurt, which could be the case, I guess.

But you seem to think that if you just keep treating her good, sending pretty puppy pictures and good thoughts -- if you're just good good good, so good, such a good, emasculated man who overlooks being cheated on -- she will come around to seeing how good you are and start treating you good too.

Did you have this kind of a relationship with your mother, where she would reward you and love you for being good? Maybe a better word than good would be behaving well. Or complying with her demands.

Dysfunction begins in our families. The rest of the world doesn't always work by the same rules that we grow up with in our families, and many of our codependent issues arise because of this.

I may sound cutting in this post, but your current state resonates with my own codependent past. Many of my own codependent issues arose due to a narcissistic father and an overdeveloped need to be the people pleasing little girl who wanted to please everybody. Going thru hell with an addict, led me to understanding that my people pleasing needs had left me vulnerable. Because of my blind spots, I had volunteered for unhappiness and misery. Overcoming my faulty childhood programming was a huge part of my own work in recovery from codependence.

Frankly, when you're an adult, no one really cares whether you are good (in the sense that you describe above) or not. Except for addicts and narcissists. Who see a manipulable person who they can groom to enable them.

Needabreak

I feel the same way, Sylvie. As much as my relationship with my ex-addict hurt at the time, the amount of self-growth and self-knowledge that arose from it is something I wouldn't trade for the world.

After going through the hell of an addict partner, I became aware of just how naive I was, and how strong I really could be. I finally grew up and became an adult, comfortable in my own skin, and I no longer look for validation from ANYONE -- friend, lover or relative -- outside of me.

amy55

Hi Joel,

There were 2 things that you said that had made me realize the relationship (married for 26 years) was not right for me.

In post # 138 you mentioned circular thinking. I had this, I described it a little differently. I called it having a one track mind, with the same tape being constantly replayed. It was always the "what if I did this", or "what if I did that" or perhaps it I had acted differently or had listened more, or.... or.....or.... and more what ifs. How could I have made this work? How could I change?

This was all I thought about. Sure, one in awhile I had to think about something else, but this was all I really thought about.

Then post # 129 where you mentioned "Civilian PTSD". Do you know that you were referring to complex PTSD? I was diagnosed with that. Complex PTSD is defined as having many traumatic events happen. You've had many. I had many.

I think the thing that happened to me was I would get through each one, and when I did that it was like I minimized the affect that it had on me, so that when the next one happened, the last one was still there, but I minimized it, almost like it didn't happen. I did this over and over again. Why? Because I had a one track mind at that time, and I was just concentrating on how I could fix this, never realizing that I could not fix or change another person.

Thinking back on all of it now, I really think that I wanted things to change, and for my marriage to work, only because I needed validation. I needed the validation from the person that was hurting me the most.

That one track mind, that circular thinking had me in it's grip. It kept me in a marriage for at least 15 years longer, possibly even the entire 26 years. See, I was a "fixer". I wanted to fix everything. I knew I couldn't fix him, so I tried to fix me. I was willing to compromise. Soon I found out that I compromised everything about me, that I wasn't even "me" anymore. I transformed myself into someone that he wanted me to be, but he didn't like that person either.

I found that I was "walking on eggshells" just to survive. Is that the life you want? You have but one life. Do you want children? Is this the way you see the rest of your life going? or do you want better for yourself?

I'm also an alcoholic. Not picking up for a day, a week, or a month, is nothing to me. It's the not wanting to pick it up again. It takes a lot to get to that point.

My life is terrific now. I did "Stop Walking on Eggshell" (there is a book by this name). I have a really good relationship with 2 of my children. Thinking about moving nearer to them. I no longer wonder what I could have done right or better in my relationship with my ex. There was never an answer to that question, and I learned to accept that. That "tape" stopped playing a long time ago. I got to be "me" again, and I like "me" now.

I'm really happy that you are posting here and letting all of your emotions out. I think it is helpful for you (instead of keeping all that circular thinking in your own head), and I also think it is helpful for anyone reading this thread.

Thank you,
((((((((((hugs)))))))))
amy

DesertEyes

Okay people, how about you all back off a bit. I see a lot of posts bordering on negativity, a lot of folks getting triggered, and lots of lecturing and not much personal experience. The only person I see staying serene is the Original Poster.

Go walk around the block people, get some fresh air, call your sponsor, go to a meeting. Come back tomorrow and find a thread that does not trigger you.

Mike
Moderator, SR

Eauchiche

Thanks Mike
I was tempted to jump in earlier too, but had some time to reflect.

Goodguy,
My heart goes out to you. There is no grief quite like the one you, and most of us have experienced in losing a loved one this way.

Hawkeye13

I agree--you've been through a lot Joel and processing it all takes time.

I wish you, her, and both your families healing and peace

OpheliaKatz

Okay, this is what I'm going to say. It's really easy to want to try to control things. You may want the best for someone, but that's still wanting something FROM them.

I think my biggest mistake in my relationship with my ex is that when he told me that he was an addict, years ago, I didn't know much about it. I just said, well okay, just stop using drugs then. I said you will prevail, you are strong, you can be whatever you want to be... blah, blah, blah. But he DID say, "Okatz, I am an addict." I. AM. AN. ADDICT. He didn't say, "Okatz, I want to go to rehab." He said, "Okatz, I am an addict." Then he heard me say (for years), "don't worry, you can get over it, you can stop." So in his mind, he thinks, "this woman doesn't really listen to me... and she buys me stuff... she's not listening to me and she's a malfunctioning ATM... and cook... and cleaner... and nurse. She's oblivious. I can work this! I can have a normal life, a normal relationship, and ALSO use drugs. I can use drugs and be NORMAL! SCORE!" This is probably not what he was literally thinking, but I'm sure that deep down inside, it probably went something like this. I think this is when he started lying regularly and the lying became a snowball that nearly killed both of us (and probably will kill him eventually). I didn't listen to him.

I look at my family of origin and my parents were "fixers". You did something wrong? You have something wrong with you? You feel sad, angry, uncomfortable? Let's fix it. You can't afford something? Tie a bunch of sticks together with duct tape and Mcguyver it. We were the opposite of Wreck-It-Ralph. We fixed things. We tried to fix people. Meanwhile, my father has not had a vacation for the past 10 years. You are in grad school? I was too. People who are high achievers often do not take no for an answer -- not from themselves or anyone else. They find it hard to believe that they can't "fix" something. They want to understand everything. But human beings are not a PhD thesis. Being able to intensely focus on something outside yourself is useful when you're writing a thesis (you forget to eat, you drink too much coffee, you barely sleep, just to get the work done), but it's a totally useless skill for relationship building.

I am now only stopping and taking stock of the mental issues that brought me to the point where my qualifier almost beat me up and then became a hobo (for a time... although who knows if he didn't have an extra woman waiting for him to move out of my house? Because I did not tolerate or hear his truth: he could not stop the drugs... he also did NOT want to). It didn't have to get to this. I didn't have to stand in his way and fall in love with the reflection of my fantasy life that I saw whenever I looked at him -- it was like I was looking not AT him but at a mirror, in which I only saw what I wished FROM him. He knew this... in some way he must have known this. How small it must have made him feel. How little he must have valued himself that he accepted this from me -- I was a person who did not see HIM when I looked at him. So he did not respect me. He could not. I suspect this is why your ex doesn't respect you either.

The more you want something from your addict partner, the more you risk provoking a build-up of narcissistic rage, because you will be asking for more than they can give. From the addict's point of view, you are asking them for things that are unreasonable -- for them to be sober is unreasonable. For their families and friends and loved-ones to NOT accept their choices/need to drug/drink, is actually rejection of them. They feel rejected. They feel that the reasons for their addiction are dismissed by you, who wants them to "go to rehab". While they resent that you don't see them for who they are, they don't want to see themselves for who they are either.

I often wonder if by loving my ex, I made him sicker. I think in some ways, I did. I made it possible for him to avoid responsibility. I stuck by him. I should not have.

I know how much you miss her. People go through so much pain on both sides -- it's just that your ex numbs her pain, you wallow in it. I don't even post pictures of our formerly shared pets on social media because... it would be cruel if my ex saw it. It's better for my ex if he just disliked me enough to move on with his life (but not so much that he had a vendetta). I want him to be happy. I also want him to be healthy but these are just fantasies. It's good enough for him to just be happy. If drugging himself into an early grave is going to give him happiness, well.... I love him enough to say he should do what he wants with his life. I mean, I'm out of the picture, he can do what he wants now without someone worrying about him. It makes me sad that he might continue using drugs way into his mid 40s (if he even survives that long). Nothing I want to say to him will be heard by him. Nothing I have said to him was ever heard by him. I can't even say goodbye.

It's very hard to let go. I let go when I had nothing left to hold on to... except hope, which was dangerous. I hope you don't wait that long.