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Old 10-25-2017, 10:08 AM   #61 (permalink)
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As hard as this sounds, yes, yes you do just stand by and let it happen. She is in control of her own life, and there is nothing you can do about the choices she makes.

Time to focus on you and getting yourself into a better head space so the next person you are with actually deserves you.

I say this gently friend.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:23 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GoodguyJoel View Post
Do we have to just stand by and let it all happen?
Have you had a choice so far about anything she does?

Your choices all revolve around YOU.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:35 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Goodguy.....I echo what hopeful said...and, yes....you do stand by and let it happen.
The things that you did during the relationship that you feel bad about...are typical things that most all of us have done when trying to control a situation---because, we did not understand that we couldn't control it! You were desperately trying to control the alcoholism. Nobody tells us, growing up, that what might work in a normal relationship is completely topsy-turvy in a relationship with an addict.
The helplessness that we feel when we realize that we can't control something...can lead us to try even harder to control it....the helpless feeling causes us extreme psychic discomfort....
You are still in the depth of the ruminating part of the grief process......
One way that you will know that you are moving along the grieving continuum, is when you notice some decreases in the amount of ruminating....it may take several more weeks...***If you call her...it will slam you back, and the ruminating time will take longer....Your choice.....
You may get some relief by beginning to try to compartmentalize the ruminating.....things, like...taking one or two hours at a certain hour, at night...lighting a candle and ruminate your heart out...(the important key to this is...once you start--you must not cut the time short!! For example...if you say that you will ruminate for 45minutes...you have to do it for 45 minutes.
You can change the time to a lower amount, at any time you feel like you need to. (this is also a mini type of wailing wall...not the full out thing)....(this was when I played my tear jerking songs...lol...Ronnie Milsap can make me cry on a dime)....
Another technique is to pretend that your best friend is sitting beside you on the couch (while you are ruminating) and talk to them about these things...out loud....like, the kinds of things that you wrote about in this post....

A couple of points.....of course, the stuff that alcoholics do, all, pretty much, fall into narcissistic behavior. That is why clinicians won't make a concrete diagnosis while a person is not into real treatment for a good period of time.
You must remember that the alcoholic thinking continues for quite a long time....even in treatment...
The brain is still affected...in the physiological sense, for several months after the alcohol consumption ceases. Neuronal function is really warped by the alcohol....
Another thing...we tend to forget that the alcoholic does not remember a lot of what happens when they are drunk....or may remember only sketchy parts of it...While WE have every detail tattooed into our brains!

The pain that you are in, while grieving, is actually the beginning parts of the healing process....every day that you plow through this is another day closer to the end of it.....this is not for nothing...it is part of your healing, in the big picture....
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:45 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Oh...one more point....you won't find a diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder attached to very many people, by a qualified clinician. This is because it is almost impossible to get anyone with that actual personality disorder into treatment of any kind...long enough to make a diagnosis. You won't even see many of them in a rehab program or anything of the sort...short of being forced there by the courts, employer, or such thing.
Even in couples therapy...(which they will rarely attend)...they are usually so good a presenting a good picture and manipulating that it is of no avail. Anyway, the behaviors that they do to another person can often be observed, only, outside of the clinical setting...in certain contexts.....
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Old 10-25-2017, 12:01 PM   #65 (permalink)
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GoodGuy: Ah, narcissism. Here's something I discovered about MYSELF!! Yikes. To tell you the truth, when I first read up on narcissism...I saw myself in some of it and got to thinking: OMG, am I a narcissist? So, I brought it up with my therapist and she said, if you're truly worried about being a narcissist, you may not be that as much as you think. IOW-those that are more profoundly narcissists don't stop and even think about it that much. Well, I agree with what you wrote that we all fall on the scale somewhere. I know I can definitely be selfish and I feel as though I have been battling that much of my life.

Anyways, Joel, you are a very good writer, so keep up the good work...it IS work in progress, this co-dependency thing. You are very good at expressing your thoughts well. I am sorry for all the grief you're going through. She sounds like a piece of work!

I'm with the others...cut ties...don't respond...let her go...she has shown you her true colors. Sorry for what grief she has put you through, friend.
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Old 10-25-2017, 12:15 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Dandylion-

I agree with your last comment. And am going to explore more ways to properly address the emotions, such as what you mentioned.

With regard to the context...I don't believe I am conflating the situation in any way...and in fact, it is vastly worse than I present in some ways. I am being very careful to ensure I present what is factual, apart from my emotions. In fact, I really do not want to misconstrue the facts or skew it in the hopes that I get real answers. I wouldn't be on these forums if I didn't genuinely care, and all I wanted was to be patted on the back. I came here looking for good people like yourselves who have genuine experience, and can truly speak to the topic.

My current feelings right now: I am standing along side of a run away train. This train has no intention of stopping. In fact, it seems like the train (her) is enjoying the ride and is getting thrills out of it.

She told me right after this all happened that she loved this guy, and that she will probably marry him. I have a sneaking suspicion that this may be coming true as we speak. We took three years before I proposed, and grew together while she was still sober (or mostly sober). But with the train analogy, it seems like she wants to rush towards that. I can't comprehend how someone can say they love someone they just met, what to others would seem to be dire circumstances, and she grips on to him like its the best thing ever...way better than I could ever give. Many of you say that this is likely just rebound or rehab romance behavior, and that it isn't likely to sustain. But this all terrifies me, and I know I shouldn't talk to her, but I so badly wish I could. I understand the comment about talking to her would only open the wound again, but if this is a forever decision, I never got closure. Likewise, I want to see if there is empathy or if she still has feelings. I know it would be best to keep our relationship out of the first time talking, but I want to know why she still calls me, and wants me to call her back.

She did forward her mail to herself, and so that part of us is drying up. I just don't know why she wants so badly to have me out of her life. I still can't see how I was toxic, or was a trigger for drinking, or how we don't see eye to eye. Is it that triggering to alcoholics to be told to please stop drinking, or know that your closest loved one doesn't approve of it? This is why I keep coming back to the idea of running away to whats easier, a fresh start, even if the future prospects are unsure.

But she knew what she had in me...even if I didn't do everything right, even if life currently wasn't outstanding because I was finishing my degree...she knew the next steps were to be big and beautiful. So how she can just negate that and run is beyond me. Maybe it was a fear of marrying me...being stuck...or as she said, a concern of potentially not being happy. But anyone with a solid head on their shoulders will likely admit that love and marriage isn't all just fun and games. It should be great, but can take work, and I don't know why I wasn't worth the work, especially since things were going well until her heavy addiction. I mean even if there were short bouts of complacency, we would always revamp or respice things up. I just couldn't do fancy vacations or promise where we would end up after my PhD (location-wise).

No matter what I say, this doesn't just seem like unhappiness and a regular break up. It seems to be heavily linked to her addiction, and potential internal struggles/issues. I know the world can be unfair and cruel, but it just doesn't seem right. In any of your experiences, did your ex-AH/W's just forget you immediately, or never contact you again? Did they just move on and that was that? Or did many of you get a chance to talk things through and still come to the same conclusion (of being apart)? Did anyone successfully talk through things after time apart, even if they entered another relationship?

It is terrifying to me to feel as though my hands are tied...before it was to try to fight her addiction...now it is the loss of someone I love, and I cannot even talk it through (partly my choice not to answer her, assuming she would even talk about it).

Last edited by GoodguyJoel; 10-25-2017 at 12:22 PM. Reason: forgot something
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Old 10-25-2017, 12:42 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Goodguy...I don't th ink anyone has inferred that you are conflating....why in the world would you think that we might think that?

to answer your question, if you remember my story, from my previous posting about it.....yes, he did come back...during that year....a couple of visits....but, there were other people present. We didn't get into a deep conversation...on one of those occasions,we attended a wedding that we had been committed to for a long time....
One year after the breakup....I was with the wonderful man that I had met 6months later...who I later married.
He was in town, and called me...asking to see me...I invited him to come to dinner with me and my new person. He agreed (I had the day off, and my future husband was still at work). We went to the store, together, to get the food for the dinner. We chatted and behaved, really, like two people who had just known each other for a long time. After my other person came home...we had a nice dinner together. Just conversation.
After the dinner, I walked him down the long driveway to the car...I hugged him....I hugged him and gave him a kiss on the cheek....and we said goodbye...and, he drove away, with tears streaming down his face....
I walked back up to the house..to my future husband, with a feeling of inner serenity...knowing that I had come full circle....
I do think that he came back because he might have been missing me, or to see if it could start up again...I don't really know for sure. But, that ship had already sailed for me....that is thanks to my many months of severe grieving! I healed and came to know that he was not the one for me...

It is amazing that one year before that, I could hardly breath, I was hurting so bad......I didn't think I would ever love again...I thought it was all over for me.....
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Old 10-25-2017, 12:55 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Good Guy-Sometimes we don't get very good closure from the other person, even if we do get the chance to talk to them again. We sometimes find they have changed and are almost nothing like the person we fell in love with. So, how are you supposed to get closure from that? You're doing a great job exploring your feelings and writing it out and seeking support and what answers you CAN find through the ESH of others. Hang in there.
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Old 10-25-2017, 01:05 PM   #69 (permalink)
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if you strip away all the "addiction" related bits you still have an ex-gf who took up with someone else. that's the bare bones of it.

break ups happen. one person can THINK everything is FINE, while the other has secretly been clawing at the wallboard to get out. we see what we WANT to see, in circumstances and in our Other.

bottom line, she left and moved on. i guess one might want to ask themselves why they would wait around and see if the New flames out and THEN the ex comes crawling back to us, as an afterthought. i should think that would be more of a kick to the ole self esteem than the original departure.
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Old 10-25-2017, 01:38 PM   #70 (permalink)
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My current feelings right now: I am standing along side of a run away train. This train has no intention of stopping. In fact, it seems like the train (her) is enjoying the ride and is getting thrills out of it.
Reminds me of the song by Soul Asylum – Runaway Train…………..bought a ticket for a runaway train. Like a madman laughin at the rain. Little out of touch, little insane……just easier then dealing with the pain.

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and I cannot even talk it through (partly my choice not to answer her, assuming she would even talk about it).
It appears to me that you are analyzing her and this relationship through a filter of logic and what should be normal but we cannot expect an active A to use logic or normal. There is no talking anything out with them, you coud never possible get any real answers or truths.
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Old 10-25-2017, 03:18 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I do agree completely. It just didn't appear that way. She was always outspoken, and had dumped her other two long term relationships before me when things weren't going the way they ought to. Maybe she struggled with guilt to leave, and finally this was enough and she ran out with a new person, knowing it would be final.

According to her friends and family though, she never once mentioned leaving me, and the small complaints she had of me (which I listed before) still don't add up to such a decision. I know exactly what you are saying about seeing what you want to see in the significant other, and I can't deny this might be the case. It just still doesn't fit that bill, and if it did, I would openly admit it...and likely would not be on this forum. I do see the idea of "take away the alcohol" and you still have a cheater/liar, but this isn't who she was for so long. Now, true colors are true colors, but I can't imagine why she would want to hurt me...coming back to narcissism and alcohol.

Everyone does say walk away, but I guess I don't want to. Back to the idea of multiple doors: I have this door in which she walked out of, but I don't have to close it behind her. But I also don't have to stand in it waiting forever (which I am trying my hardest not to do). This also means I can explore or open new doors, and maybe close the door temporarily to her, but it doesn't mean I have to forever. Where I currently am, and someone made note of it, was that I am standing in the doorway. And I do feel as though I very much so am, however tough I may seem, and holding true to no contact.

I feel lower than low, and don't want to go on sometimes. I want to do everything everyone has mentioned, but honestly it is too hard sometimes to face up to it. Letting go. I just can't. For some, this would be so easy, but I was so proud of her even though she degraded due to alcohol. I was ready to get our lives back, and help one another achieve all our dreams that we even talked about recently. I can't get over that we were intimate right up to the end, which is hard to fake, or as I said, she would have been outspoken if she didn't want me.

Her attraction to another man is eating me alive. I just don't understand how someone I cared for could be so cruel. This happened to me in my previous relationship before her, but it was so clear that this person (who didn't suffer from addiction) was just cruel, and didn't care anymore and I got past it. This time, its so very different, but ended the same way. In the earlier relationship, it was coming for some time, and didn't work out in the end. This time, it was a total bomb, and I don't think she even saw it coming. I could be wrong, and she could have been clawing to get out, but it doesn't seem that way, even from what she told me when she broke off the engagement. It seems like the plan was to lie to the therapist, and leave with this guy in haste. This change, I cannot doubt happened because of shacking up in rehab and connecting on similar life events. Likewise, big grandiose dreams while in the hazy recovery that he went along with I'm sure to impress her. What a s***head for knowing we were engaged, and getting between us...all is fair in love and war...if you are a terrible person. She is just as guilty obviously, but vulnerability was a trademark for her at these end stages. And they went on to drink together, and god knows what else.

I am really having a rough day...I wish I could just speak to her...and that time may come soon. I know you will all disagree that I should, but what if I need it for me? To see if anything has changed. To see why she was calling. I had a friend tell me that his wife ran off soon after getting married (no substance abuse), and that down the road, she saw it as the worst mistake of her life. He didn't take her back, and the way he saw it is that she is not with this guy for 4 years, and they haven't got married. He said it seems as though she is making the best of a bad situation. I can't but wonder if my ex knows this is the same thing... She knows the incredible impact of her choice, and that there is no going back...so make the best of it you can. It may have seemed like a good idea, but her mom said she was worried about the guy going through some tough things (Im guessing with his addiction to sleeping pills and maybe other drugs). All in all, i'm sure she feels good getting new attention, but eventually the honey moon phase does die down...And then you are left with what? Two addicts. I don't want anything bad to come of her or to her, but I do just wish we could talk things out...maybe see where we both stand. I didn't agree to the decision she made, it was all her. I know it takes two to tango, but she did abandon our dog, and all of her close supporters and friends. I know she occasionally tries to reach out to some of the friends in hopes of keeping that, but many are angry with her, that she lied to them, and then ran off. Including how she treated me they are angry about. But yet she is unaffected. This is why I always ask how long it takes to get out of the haze if sober. Or if not sober, what I should expect. I think it lies somewhere in between...she probably isn't drinking like she did at the end, but may again or likely will, but is still absolutely thinking she can control it.

Problem is exactly as all of you say...she may not be emotionally available. I am guessing you mean this with regard to being an active alcoholic. Or do you mean that she has emotionally checked out? It's probably a combination of the two currently...but I am left wondering if she thinks of us...not just me, not just her. If she truly misses us. Including our little puppy, which she called her second love (second only to me). What a damn crummy situation to be in. I can hardly think straight even a month and half into this. Using logic is truly getting me no where, but it isn't all about applying logic to me, it is about trying to work through the details. Not gossip, just the details. And from what you all have read and heard, I hope it is clear that we were very much so in love...I as well as many others said they never saw her or I shine so bright. It was once the alcohol took hold that her spark for life went down. And I don't imagine that is because of me (although I could be wrong, and please check me on this if I am). I know this is all rose colored glasses thinking, but it is hard to ignore what seemed to be a beautiful future up until the alcohol.

Any further thoughts would be appreciated. Or things I haven't considered...let me know please.
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Old 10-25-2017, 03:50 PM   #72 (permalink)
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people change, Joel......people change their minds, change who they seem to be, where they live, what they do, who they are with.

i know you had a lot of hopes and dreams INVESTED in this relationship, and your dreams relied heavily on HER being and acting and doing certain things. in the midst of it all, her addiction reared its ugly head. it had perhaps been simmering for a long time, she may have hidden it well, you may just not have been paying attention. but there it is......during what was for you the 'happiest times in your life' with all the promises and dreams, she was drinking more and more and more. and it wasn't out of sheer JOY that she did so.

she has stuff. so do you. so do i. and FOR HER, her path took her THAT way, while yours took you THIS way. i am not trying to make light, but ACCEPTANCE of that basic notion will go a long way. you can stop looking under EVERY rock. analyzing every THING.

i was with my last husband for a lotta years, 14, and then i bailed. there was NOTHING wrong with him.....he was, IS, a perfectly fine man. i just didn't belong with him anymore. my path went THAT way.....it was just time for me to go. i did it as swiftly and painlessly as possible. and that was that.
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Old 10-25-2017, 03:57 PM   #73 (permalink)
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GgJoel - Heartbreak is the absolute worst and having alcoholism tangled in the mix just makes it even worse. I think a lot of us hear struggle with the dreams of a life that will go unrealized because of our loved ones addiction, I know I do. I've gone back and forth being mad at my STBXAH and the alcohol but the truth is I can't separate them or at least I shouldn't.

I am not sure which thread I read this today but I think it applies to your situation so if it was earlier on this thread and you've already ready it, I apologize in advance:
"When God takes something from your grasp, he's not punishing you, but merely opening your hands to receive something better."

If you don't mind, I'd like to gently recommend that you start channeling some of your energy away from trying to understand another person who has treated you badly and who treats themselves badly by abusing alcohol and perhaps start focusing your energy on YOU. Do something good for yourself and hopefully little by little you'll get to where you're meant to go FROM here.

Best of luck to you!
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Old 10-25-2017, 04:27 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GoodguyJoel View Post
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According to her friends and family though, she never once mentioned leaving me, and the small complaints she had of me (which I listed before) still don't add up to such a decision.
welp, this happening in the past:

"and had dumped her other two long term relationships before me when things weren't going the way they ought to."

seems to make it all add up
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Old 10-25-2017, 04:35 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Goodguy.....I know that you are suffering terribly. I don't expect you to accept this or "get over it" any time soon. Grief takes it's own time. I, also, realize that you can't absorb very much of what is being said to you, right now. (though you may remember it later, and use it)....
Grieving occurs in 24hr. segments at a time. Many, many tear stained days.
Over time, it will settle down. Like the tidal waves coming on to crash on the shore, then receding back again to calmer waters. The crashing waves will start to come less frequently, and will not last quite as long....
One must regard each 24hrs. as a victory, and a little bit closer to the end.
I was like you for 6months...for the worst part.....
You cannot get around this....you must, like all humans...let yourself be carried through it. This is Mother Nature's healing plan.
As one member here, said...."I thought people died before they suffered this much"....She lived through it...and, the sun did shine for her again.
It will for you too.

I hope you can use the techniques that I described for you...I did those and they gave me merciful relief....
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Old 10-25-2017, 04:45 PM   #76 (permalink)
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GoodGuy...I am dedicating the following song for you. I think it describes the universal feelings that you are going through....
It is an old song, before your time....but, I believe that you can relate to it very much...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVUOtH8feoI
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Old 10-25-2017, 06:09 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Well everyone. I got some news.

Tonight the step father called me and told me she flew back in town last night. She apparently had seizures there and the guy threw her on a plane and sent her off. She was apparently drinking the whole time and I know how much it takes to get to that point, a lot. A few things:

1. She is staying at her parents
2. I think it makes sense why she called the other day now hoping she could stay with me. Remember I didnít answer.
3. The guy was confronted by the mother on the phone and said if you done take her to the hospital and she dies, the blood is on his hands.
4. Iím sure this freaked him out and he probably now sees the reality of the situation. Likewise, he probably sees the mirror held up to himself of what life oils be with a hardcore active alcoholic.
5. He said he will be driving her car back with all her stuff and she isnít coming back. Although she thinks otherwise.
6. Iím guessing it was a party since day 1 there, and probably involved drugs too. That being said, he probably doesnít want the police involved and is looking out for number one(himself) and could care less what happens to her.
7. Her mother had to give her alcohol when she got back because she was out of her prescription drugs for seizures, and to keep her from having one gave her some wine. Then today took her to the hospital.
8. The mother and step father are besides themselves, the step father is so angry but called this day one when it happened. The mother is taking off work and doesnít know what to do.
9. I am now going to have to more promptly prepare myself for encountering or speaking with her.
10. I am going to be heavily guarded and prepare notes so that I donít let emotions get the better of me.
11. She hasnít called me since back yet, probably out of shame.
12. I know better than to expect much, but I can only tell her at this point that I would only support her in seeking sobriety and help. I would only do/talk to her on my terms.

Holy crud did this throw a wrench in my day and everything I was feeling. It doesnít mean I will just revert back, and if anything I will just stay on the course I was on to my own recovery. Now, I just have to face that sheís back and I know I will eventually talk and encounter her. We will see if she is hostile, apparently she is telling the parents that she is only drinking wine because ďwine is different than other alcoholsĒ and she is drinking because xyz(excuses). She is in denial this is still a problem after many more seizures since.

This does answer one question though...the drinking was certainly not due to me.

Any thoughts?
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Old 10-25-2017, 07:44 PM   #78 (permalink)
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thoughts...

her fling blew up.
she's still using.
her new guy sent her home, to mom and dad.
she hasn't called you yet.

kinda right where things were before she left for rehab.
more drama.
more addiction.

you can unsubscribe at any time.
or you can stay involved.
that's up to you.......
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:14 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Oh I donít plan on racing back. And she did call a few days ago. I assume she isnít calling out of shame now, or realizes the impass she has put up.

Trust me when I say Iím not that foolish. Itís just amazing that I stood by the woman for a year and a half and this guy leaves her in less than two months. The universe is funny that way. I just hope she seeks real help this time, thatís all. Itís sad to see the self destruction. As well as amazing to see that what we all knew to be true was very very true in reality. Iím not thriving on validation, Iím just glad to know Iím not going nuts. It brings me no thrill knowing she suffered seizures again...and that sooner or later Iím sure I will have to face her. Like I said, I just have to now think hard about what I am going to say when I do. Focused, calm, collected, resolved is my approach, just need to get the words right before hand. To protect myself.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:39 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GoodguyJoel View Post
Well everyone. I got some news.

Tonight the step father called me and told me she flew back in town last night. She apparently had seizures there and the guy threw her on a plane and sent her off. She was apparently drinking the whole time and I know how much it takes to get to that point, a lot.

7. Her mother had to give her alcohol when she got back because she was out of her prescription drugs for seizures, and to keep her from having one gave her some wine. Then today took her to the hospital.
....

This does answer one question though...the drinking was certainly not due to me.

Any thoughts?

to me it sounds a lot like borderline personality disorder . . .

i knew a woman fairly well for many years who was diagnosed with this that behaved similarly to your problem.

this kind of crazy will kill you in your sleep, change your phone number, move.

have you done any reading on sociopaths/narcissists/borderline ?

start with the sociopath next door.

Reading your level of upset and reaction from your first post , your emotions and confusion is similar to anyone who's been burned by a sociopath.

this is not to be taken lightly - get the fk out and get away asap. fool me once... expression... just move on, stop thinking about it...
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alcoholism , break ups with an addict , narcissism , rehab , rehab romance


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