What should recovery look like 2 1/2 years later?
Wifeofteoyearssober
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 24
What should recovery look like 2 1/2 years later?
Hello all,
I am the wife of a recovering alcoholic.
Yes, it's true that once they stop drinking, all the other childhood issues arise.
When my husband stopped drinking, he went into an intensive day program. So for the first 4 months or so, he either worked or was at the treatment center.
Then he went to 3-4 AA meetings a day. He has gone in and out of counselors, and we've even done marriage counseling.
When I found out that he was an alcoholic I was so forgiving and supportive. He said that helped him want to go into treatment.
Since then, however pretty much all he can do is go to work, watch you tube or go to counseling or AA meetings. Did I mention that he's also taking medication for ADHD?
Anyway, he has decided from the beginning that he needs to work on himself and doesn't include me in his recovery, or really in any part of his life.
I'm the mom, who still keeps the house going so that he can do what he wants. Kind of like what so did when was drinking.
I have been to years of individual counseling myself, and have gone to Alanon, and gone through intensive counseling where aid went through the 12 steps but not through Alanon with a sponsor.
However, my husband walks around saying he's changed, and I haven't. That I won't be changed until I get a sponsor and do the 12 steps.....which he really hasn't done himself.
I am educated enough to know that he is still trying to find every excuse to avoid emotional intimacy with me, and to find an excuse to don whatever he wants. Plus if you don't spend time with people you will eventually drift apart. It's biological.
He is the kind of person who doesn't want to feel any emotion and does whatever he can to dstract himself from anything that makes him uncomfortable. And talking to me makes him uncomfortable.
We have been married for 14 years and basically he didn't and doesn't have a care in the world. I've done everything for him.
However, now that Ive learned how to step back and allow him to be responsible for his own life, I'm still the bad guy. I never was mean or ugly or anything after he came clean with his past 10 years of drinking behavior and drug use. I forgave him and it took him 2 years to even feel a little bit of remorse for all the things he put me through.
Now, as I said, it seems he is trying to find every excuse in the book to mend or even have any type of relationship except an acquaintance or a business partner, we do own a business together.
I thought that he'd be thankful to have the love and support of a spouse in recovery, but he doesn't act that way.
Is 3 meetings a week plus counselor, plus meeting with a sponsor normal for 2 1/2 years after the alcoholic stops drinking?
And Im ready to separate physically even though it would devastate the kids, this is a second marriage for both of us, but what are the kids learning about marriage except that the dad plays and the mom is the scapegoat for everything.
I like myself. I dont need my husband to survive. I'd like to share my life with him, but I can't make him want to share it with me. He still doesn't do any amends except an apology, and he's hurt me sooooooo incredibly much and I've always forgiven him.
Last thing. Time is my love language, for anyone who's read the book, and we never get to spend time together, if I suggest he miss an AA mtg he gets all mad(although he'll do it for other things), anyway, he spend weekends away from me to "go over the steps with his sponsor" while deer hunting.
Which I would have been ok with, except he never did anything with me before or after, or anything to help me feel better about him bring gone. He turned it all around, like he usually does, and makes it all about him, how he's hurt. Funny, for some reason he's the only one in our marriage who can be hurt and needs amends.
I am healthy enough that I think I see exactly what he's doing, and any Alanon sponsor and counselor will too, although for some reason he blindly thinks they'll somehow make me accept his behavior.
He doesn't know how long his recovery will last and he won't include he in it. Bottom line. He's emotionally unavailable and doesn't know when he will be. And he'll wear the selfish self entered label like a badge of honor just to get out of having to make amends.....he says that's just how alcoholics are ....that I can't expect anything from him.
He's afraid of failure. He's fearful of everything, and there is nothing that is can go.
I don't know if anyone will actually read this until the end, but I just wanted to know what other people have had experience with.
Does it get better or will he stay this way for years?
I am the wife of a recovering alcoholic.
Yes, it's true that once they stop drinking, all the other childhood issues arise.
When my husband stopped drinking, he went into an intensive day program. So for the first 4 months or so, he either worked or was at the treatment center.
Then he went to 3-4 AA meetings a day. He has gone in and out of counselors, and we've even done marriage counseling.
When I found out that he was an alcoholic I was so forgiving and supportive. He said that helped him want to go into treatment.
Since then, however pretty much all he can do is go to work, watch you tube or go to counseling or AA meetings. Did I mention that he's also taking medication for ADHD?
Anyway, he has decided from the beginning that he needs to work on himself and doesn't include me in his recovery, or really in any part of his life.
I'm the mom, who still keeps the house going so that he can do what he wants. Kind of like what so did when was drinking.
I have been to years of individual counseling myself, and have gone to Alanon, and gone through intensive counseling where aid went through the 12 steps but not through Alanon with a sponsor.
However, my husband walks around saying he's changed, and I haven't. That I won't be changed until I get a sponsor and do the 12 steps.....which he really hasn't done himself.
I am educated enough to know that he is still trying to find every excuse to avoid emotional intimacy with me, and to find an excuse to don whatever he wants. Plus if you don't spend time with people you will eventually drift apart. It's biological.
He is the kind of person who doesn't want to feel any emotion and does whatever he can to dstract himself from anything that makes him uncomfortable. And talking to me makes him uncomfortable.
We have been married for 14 years and basically he didn't and doesn't have a care in the world. I've done everything for him.
However, now that Ive learned how to step back and allow him to be responsible for his own life, I'm still the bad guy. I never was mean or ugly or anything after he came clean with his past 10 years of drinking behavior and drug use. I forgave him and it took him 2 years to even feel a little bit of remorse for all the things he put me through.
Now, as I said, it seems he is trying to find every excuse in the book to mend or even have any type of relationship except an acquaintance or a business partner, we do own a business together.
I thought that he'd be thankful to have the love and support of a spouse in recovery, but he doesn't act that way.
Is 3 meetings a week plus counselor, plus meeting with a sponsor normal for 2 1/2 years after the alcoholic stops drinking?
And Im ready to separate physically even though it would devastate the kids, this is a second marriage for both of us, but what are the kids learning about marriage except that the dad plays and the mom is the scapegoat for everything.
I like myself. I dont need my husband to survive. I'd like to share my life with him, but I can't make him want to share it with me. He still doesn't do any amends except an apology, and he's hurt me sooooooo incredibly much and I've always forgiven him.
Last thing. Time is my love language, for anyone who's read the book, and we never get to spend time together, if I suggest he miss an AA mtg he gets all mad(although he'll do it for other things), anyway, he spend weekends away from me to "go over the steps with his sponsor" while deer hunting.
Which I would have been ok with, except he never did anything with me before or after, or anything to help me feel better about him bring gone. He turned it all around, like he usually does, and makes it all about him, how he's hurt. Funny, for some reason he's the only one in our marriage who can be hurt and needs amends.
I am healthy enough that I think I see exactly what he's doing, and any Alanon sponsor and counselor will too, although for some reason he blindly thinks they'll somehow make me accept his behavior.
He doesn't know how long his recovery will last and he won't include he in it. Bottom line. He's emotionally unavailable and doesn't know when he will be. And he'll wear the selfish self entered label like a badge of honor just to get out of having to make amends.....he says that's just how alcoholics are ....that I can't expect anything from him.
He's afraid of failure. He's fearful of everything, and there is nothing that is can go.
I don't know if anyone will actually read this until the end, but I just wanted to know what other people have had experience with.
Does it get better or will he stay this way for years?
Member
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 773
Hi there and welcome!
Firstly - 3 meetings per week is absolutely normal. Spending a whole weekend away - probably occasionally ok, but a little bit alarming.
Many "recovering alcoholics" remain self absorbed and child-like. Case in point - my RXAH called today (and every day) to complain how hard his life is and how much he is doing and that I expect too much from him. This is after I asked him to send me a schedule for DS visitation. Alcoholics in early recovery can be worse than drunk ones.
Your situation is familiar - it felt like pulling teeth doing anything with him for years - and I always initiated. Grew tired after a while.
Bottom line - you can bend over backwards and he still won't behave in a way you expect him.
Try to stop worrying about him and take care of yourself, go to your meetings, go out with girlfriends, get manicures.
Live your life and he may or may not want to join in
Firstly - 3 meetings per week is absolutely normal. Spending a whole weekend away - probably occasionally ok, but a little bit alarming.
Many "recovering alcoholics" remain self absorbed and child-like. Case in point - my RXAH called today (and every day) to complain how hard his life is and how much he is doing and that I expect too much from him. This is after I asked him to send me a schedule for DS visitation. Alcoholics in early recovery can be worse than drunk ones.
Your situation is familiar - it felt like pulling teeth doing anything with him for years - and I always initiated. Grew tired after a while.
Bottom line - you can bend over backwards and he still won't behave in a way you expect him.
Try to stop worrying about him and take care of yourself, go to your meetings, go out with girlfriends, get manicures.
Live your life and he may or may not want to join in
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: CA, USA
Posts: 206
No amends, taking your inventory, and a self-centered attitude are red flags. He may not really be working the program, or he may not be getting fully honest in his program. In other words, he may be taking "half-measures" as it says in the big book. 3 meetings a week is a normal amount for maintenence. But just because somebody goes to meetings doesn't mean they have fully embraced the program. The program is the 12 steps of recovery. Meetings are support.
2 1/2 years is a decent amount of time sober. But how much time somebody has sober isn't necessarily a good indicator of how much recovery they have. A person with only 1 year who is working a really strong program and who is 100% committed to it, including the honesty required, can demonstrate better recovery than someone with several years who is taking half measures.
If he is in fact working a good program, then I imagine he'd be receptive when you communicate to him that you're feeling left out.
2 1/2 years is a decent amount of time sober. But how much time somebody has sober isn't necessarily a good indicator of how much recovery they have. A person with only 1 year who is working a really strong program and who is 100% committed to it, including the honesty required, can demonstrate better recovery than someone with several years who is taking half measures.
If he is in fact working a good program, then I imagine he'd be receptive when you communicate to him that you're feeling left out.
Sober since 10th April 2012
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6,047
Hi 2years, your frustration comes out with every sentence. I agree that a marriage has little chance of survival if the couple never spend quality time together, unless both of them are ok with that. You're obviously not.
Nata makes a good point that emotional maturity and empathy are not the strong points of many alcoholics, especially those who have been drinking since their teens.
So he's not listening, or hearing you and his reaction is to push the blame back on you - avoidance. You've both been to counsellors, and he may never open up.
You say you're a SAH Mum? I suggest you start looking for a job, putting money aside and planning for an independent future. It may not be necessary but it won't hurt either.
Consider going away for the weekend and leaving him with the kids.
Nata makes a good point that emotional maturity and empathy are not the strong points of many alcoholics, especially those who have been drinking since their teens.
So he's not listening, or hearing you and his reaction is to push the blame back on you - avoidance. You've both been to counsellors, and he may never open up.
You say you're a SAH Mum? I suggest you start looking for a job, putting money aside and planning for an independent future. It may not be necessary but it won't hurt either.
Consider going away for the weekend and leaving him with the kids.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 93
Im about nine months into my recovery and I'm not a big AA guy. I go when I feel like I need to stay connected to the program. Maybe once per week sometimes more but I do see a therapist weekly for mindfulness therapy which has helped me get a toolbox full of tools to deal with life in a healthy and productive way. It works for me and I believe recovery is individual but the common denominator of success seems to be doing whatever it takes to become integrated back into society with a life that is in balance. He seems to be out of balance. I learned how to deal with the stress of work, family, spouse, and everyday ups and down without my number one coping tool...booze. Sounds like he does too. It also sounds like you guys don't communicate and he is way out of touch with your needs as a partner. Have you guys tried going for walks without any distraction and simply checking in with each other and seeing where the conversation may go. Before I got clean, my wife and I talked but the conversations were about as deep as a puddle. Now we talk about her codependency and her fears as well as my. We talk about acceptance and moving forward. Really whatever is on our minds and we still aren't ready to say we are all in on our 27 year marriage. It's hard work but worth it. It's a journey.
Better when never is never
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Wisconsin near Twin Cities
Posts: 1,745
I would forget about everything he is doing and focus on what my boundaries and needs are for a marriage. I would then ask myself if those boundaries and needs are being met in the current circumstances. We can either work on those things as a couple or I can focus on the things I can change on my own.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Wareham, Mass
Posts: 7,067
I am very sorry for your sadness and trouble, Twoyears. Your spouse does sound very cut off from his emotions. Sad but true that life doesn't get perfect after the drinking stops. Sometimes, at least for a while, it gets worse because the drink was helping to mask other difficulties.
I don't know your back story. Has your husband always been this way, even before the drink took over? My alcohol dependent sib was a selfish, self-centered person long before his drinking reached epic proportions.
At the end of the day, this may be the partner you have. Only you can decide if that is enough. Peace.
I don't know your back story. Has your husband always been this way, even before the drink took over? My alcohol dependent sib was a selfish, self-centered person long before his drinking reached epic proportions.
At the end of the day, this may be the partner you have. Only you can decide if that is enough. Peace.
Wifeofteoyearssober
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 24
Thank you for all the good insight.
Thanks everyone for all of the good comments.
I appreciate the time and thought you've given me. 🙂
Mindfulness is a great practice. It was suggested by one of his previous therapists and while he was doing mindfulness meditations he seemed more in touch with me.
He has gone up and down with how well he has been working his recovery program, and admittedly he says he has drifted into the dry drunk phase on more than one occasion, but eventually he got back on track.
He seems to be easily led but whatever therapist he has says, and doesn't seem to grasp the true meaning of some psychological concepts.
First therapist said do mindfulness. He tried. Second one said look at codependency and tough love. He did, but thought tough love was yelling at me and admitted he was codependent but didn't really do anything about it and dropped the mindfulness. Third therapist said set your boundaries and so he said we can't have a relationship until I go back to Alanon on a regular basis and work the 12 steps p,us he says there is a certain way to work them. (Did I mention he's a perfectionist?)
Anyway, the sad part is that he doesn't talk to me unless I initiate the conversation, and he even says he's too scared to talk to me because he's afraid of getting yelled at. Which is odd since I don't yell at him when he talks to me. I only get frustrated when he doesn't. And last night he yelled at me, first time he's even spoken more than three sentences to me in months, about getting a counselor and doing the twelve steps, like then Ill suddenly be worthy enough to speak to.
He also assimilates with whatever group he's with. It used to be me, now it's AA, he just goes wherever he thinks he can get the most attention and kudos. His counselor even said he acts like a immature teenager, and no one wants to be married to a child.
If he would just make any step, take any action to have a relationship with me, that would be something, but all he says is to leave him alone and to take care of myself, which I have, but obviously he doesn't think it's doing what he thought it would do.
He just doesn't take responsibility for anything. And he's teaching our kids not to either. If I wasn't around to lean on as a crutch then he'd have to do all the adult things himself and grow up. Sometimes teens don't grow up until they leave the nest.
Plus, if he says he wants to work on himself and me on myself, then there us no relationship there anyway.
He thinks doing nothing means he's doing nothing wrong, but ignoring someone hurts just as much.
Will continue to seek advice of counselors and Alanon, but I asked him if hey suggested I leave him, what would he do. And he said that Ishould just leave.
So much for him wanting to wanting to do something to keep me around....
I appreciate the time and thought you've given me. 🙂
Mindfulness is a great practice. It was suggested by one of his previous therapists and while he was doing mindfulness meditations he seemed more in touch with me.
He has gone up and down with how well he has been working his recovery program, and admittedly he says he has drifted into the dry drunk phase on more than one occasion, but eventually he got back on track.
He seems to be easily led but whatever therapist he has says, and doesn't seem to grasp the true meaning of some psychological concepts.
First therapist said do mindfulness. He tried. Second one said look at codependency and tough love. He did, but thought tough love was yelling at me and admitted he was codependent but didn't really do anything about it and dropped the mindfulness. Third therapist said set your boundaries and so he said we can't have a relationship until I go back to Alanon on a regular basis and work the 12 steps p,us he says there is a certain way to work them. (Did I mention he's a perfectionist?)
Anyway, the sad part is that he doesn't talk to me unless I initiate the conversation, and he even says he's too scared to talk to me because he's afraid of getting yelled at. Which is odd since I don't yell at him when he talks to me. I only get frustrated when he doesn't. And last night he yelled at me, first time he's even spoken more than three sentences to me in months, about getting a counselor and doing the twelve steps, like then Ill suddenly be worthy enough to speak to.
He also assimilates with whatever group he's with. It used to be me, now it's AA, he just goes wherever he thinks he can get the most attention and kudos. His counselor even said he acts like a immature teenager, and no one wants to be married to a child.
If he would just make any step, take any action to have a relationship with me, that would be something, but all he says is to leave him alone and to take care of myself, which I have, but obviously he doesn't think it's doing what he thought it would do.
He just doesn't take responsibility for anything. And he's teaching our kids not to either. If I wasn't around to lean on as a crutch then he'd have to do all the adult things himself and grow up. Sometimes teens don't grow up until they leave the nest.
Plus, if he says he wants to work on himself and me on myself, then there us no relationship there anyway.
He thinks doing nothing means he's doing nothing wrong, but ignoring someone hurts just as much.
Will continue to seek advice of counselors and Alanon, but I asked him if hey suggested I leave him, what would he do. And he said that Ishould just leave.
So much for him wanting to wanting to do something to keep me around....
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Twoyearssober.....a question---how would you feel about this situation if he were NOT an alcoholic?
I sounds like you have made reasonable accommodation for him to have the time for his recovery activities and therapy.
I get the image, from what you write, that you have spent time assuming that drinking was the core of the problems and that if he quit consuming alcohol and went into a recovery program....that the relationship would meet your needs.
That hope and compliance has been the "wind beneath your wings", for some time.....lol...how is that working out? Sounds, to me, like your needs have dropped by the wayside...
Actually, I have never been married to an actively drinking alcoholic....and, never one in recovery. However, I can tell you about two other women, who I have known for years. whose husbands have been in recovery for years. And, both women did attend alanon....one went for 5yrs. Both have stayed in the marriage with no plans of moving on.....
In both cases...these women are chronically unhappy with their husbands....
Now, I have met both of these men, socially, on some occasions....and, I can tell you that I felt like they were "jerks" (for lack of a better word)...both seemed to be very rigid and self centered...
It appears, to me, like these women decided that this is the best that it is going to be....and they are willing to accept that---a this was the price they have to pay to remain in the marriage. They seem to have accommodated to this state of affairs and adjusted their live and have adjusted to their husbands" personalities and needs.
There are not any children left in the home, in both cases, and they both have careers of their own and totally run their homes....
These are the choices that they have made......and, are totally entitled to....
Personally, for me...I can't imagine living the way that they do....
I chose to divorce my first husband...my children's father....I just couldn't face living in the Unhappiness Prison for the rest of my life! My first husband wasn't an alcoholic, either! go figure.....
By the way, that was years and years ago....he remarried...but, still hasn't changed...AND his new wife has chosen to stay with him...forever....
Go figure, again....
Each of us gets to decide what we can/will tolerate....what we want to live with....there is no right or wrong answer to this...just YOUR answer....
***on a side note---there is more to the treatment of adhd than just the medication. Learning to live with adhd partners can be a journey, in itself. It requires lots of knowledge about the condition and lots of patience and wiliness to accommodate to the condition, by both partners.
I find it interesting that you say your love language is "time" (lol...I have read the book..and, I think it is a good one).....for adhd people...time is a sticky wicket...
Another thought...I think a person could starve to death, living on a diet of hope, only
I sounds like you have made reasonable accommodation for him to have the time for his recovery activities and therapy.
I get the image, from what you write, that you have spent time assuming that drinking was the core of the problems and that if he quit consuming alcohol and went into a recovery program....that the relationship would meet your needs.
That hope and compliance has been the "wind beneath your wings", for some time.....lol...how is that working out? Sounds, to me, like your needs have dropped by the wayside...
Actually, I have never been married to an actively drinking alcoholic....and, never one in recovery. However, I can tell you about two other women, who I have known for years. whose husbands have been in recovery for years. And, both women did attend alanon....one went for 5yrs. Both have stayed in the marriage with no plans of moving on.....
In both cases...these women are chronically unhappy with their husbands....
Now, I have met both of these men, socially, on some occasions....and, I can tell you that I felt like they were "jerks" (for lack of a better word)...both seemed to be very rigid and self centered...
It appears, to me, like these women decided that this is the best that it is going to be....and they are willing to accept that---a this was the price they have to pay to remain in the marriage. They seem to have accommodated to this state of affairs and adjusted their live and have adjusted to their husbands" personalities and needs.
There are not any children left in the home, in both cases, and they both have careers of their own and totally run their homes....
These are the choices that they have made......and, are totally entitled to....
Personally, for me...I can't imagine living the way that they do....
I chose to divorce my first husband...my children's father....I just couldn't face living in the Unhappiness Prison for the rest of my life! My first husband wasn't an alcoholic, either! go figure.....
By the way, that was years and years ago....he remarried...but, still hasn't changed...AND his new wife has chosen to stay with him...forever....
Go figure, again....
Each of us gets to decide what we can/will tolerate....what we want to live with....there is no right or wrong answer to this...just YOUR answer....
***on a side note---there is more to the treatment of adhd than just the medication. Learning to live with adhd partners can be a journey, in itself. It requires lots of knowledge about the condition and lots of patience and wiliness to accommodate to the condition, by both partners.
I find it interesting that you say your love language is "time" (lol...I have read the book..and, I think it is a good one).....for adhd people...time is a sticky wicket...
Another thought...I think a person could starve to death, living on a diet of hope, only
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
Hi, 2Years. Your story has a couple of similar components to mine - specifically the ADHD diagnosis is what jumped off the page for me right away.
My husband is 5 years into recovery but relapsed at around 2.5 years. He was recently diagnosed with ADHD officially, although we've suspected it for many years. About 18 months ago, dandylion suggested a book to me, "Is It You, Me, or ADHD?" by Gina Pera. This book was a game-changer in my life because it's written for the spouse of the ADHD person, not the affected one. It made me feel sane for the first time in many, many years.
I don't know how new his diagnosis is or how long he's been medicated, but we've seen tremendous growth for RAH since getting his ADHD under control a few months ago. We are still observing his ongoing changes because it's still early in the process for him but he's verbalizing a question I've been pondering since reading that book - could it be that his ADHD is really his primary issue & the alcoholism was a dependency developed as a result of it? Something he developed in the absence of other tools to fall back on when every area of his life hit a moment of crisis, seemingly simultaneously?
Now that he's had a taste of clarity he's also working to differentiate how much he truly relates to something vs. whether he just accepted the labels as they were handed to him without examining it to see if it "fit", sort of like you describe here:
It doesn't matter - it was imperative for him to start taking accountability no matter what the reasons. He also needed to be responsible for the choices he could be making to improve his quality of day-to-day living (taking his meds, making adjustments to sleep, diet, etc.) because managing his ADHD is more than just popping a pill, we've found. I think his recovery actually helped in this area by giving him useable tools like HALT, etc. .... but not until he really embraced his ADHD & started to educate himself about it and again, accountability is Key. He had to WANT to be better.
I started a thread about it here: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...adult-add.html
This isn't a boundary - boundaries dictate self-behavior & are full of "I" statements - "I" this & "I" that. Boundaries don't dictate the behavior of someone else, that's called rule-making & that requires both parties to agree to the terms.
Welcome to SR, sorry you have a need to be here but glad you found us!
My husband is 5 years into recovery but relapsed at around 2.5 years. He was recently diagnosed with ADHD officially, although we've suspected it for many years. About 18 months ago, dandylion suggested a book to me, "Is It You, Me, or ADHD?" by Gina Pera. This book was a game-changer in my life because it's written for the spouse of the ADHD person, not the affected one. It made me feel sane for the first time in many, many years.
I don't know how new his diagnosis is or how long he's been medicated, but we've seen tremendous growth for RAH since getting his ADHD under control a few months ago. We are still observing his ongoing changes because it's still early in the process for him but he's verbalizing a question I've been pondering since reading that book - could it be that his ADHD is really his primary issue & the alcoholism was a dependency developed as a result of it? Something he developed in the absence of other tools to fall back on when every area of his life hit a moment of crisis, seemingly simultaneously?
Now that he's had a taste of clarity he's also working to differentiate how much he truly relates to something vs. whether he just accepted the labels as they were handed to him without examining it to see if it "fit", sort of like you describe here:
He seems to be easily led but whatever therapist he has says, and doesn't seem to grasp the true meaning of some psychological concepts.
I started a thread about it here: http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...adult-add.html
Originally Posted by Twoyearssober 
Third therapist said set your boundaries and so he said we can't have a relationship until I go back to Alanon on a regular basis and work the 12 steps p,us he says there is a certain way to work them. (Did I mention he's a perfectionist?)
Welcome to SR, sorry you have a need to be here but glad you found us!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
[QUOTEAnyway, he has decided from the beginning that he needs to work on himself and doesn't include me in his recovery][/QUOTE]
This is the right approach, recovery is a solo trip. However that doesn't mean he shouldn't work with you on your relationship. I suggest asking if the relationship works for you then making decisions. We can't control other people, only our own words and actions.
This is the right approach, recovery is a solo trip. However that doesn't mean he shouldn't work with you on your relationship. I suggest asking if the relationship works for you then making decisions. We can't control other people, only our own words and actions.
Wifeofteoyearssober
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 24
Very glad I found this forum.
I appreciate very much the different points that everyone has to offer.
I understand that there is not a one size fits all approach to anything, so having people see different angles to the same situation is very refreshing. Glad we're not all the same...
It's difficult to say which came first, the ADHD or the alcoholism. It's like the chicken and the egg conundrum, since ADHD people if not on medication seem to find a way to "self medicate," and he's done that his whole life, starting from chocolate/ food as a child, dip/alcohol as a teen, more alcohol/smoking/ drugs in college and young adulthood.
I caught him following g his divorce, at a come to Jesus moment, when he had supposedly given all that up way before I entere the picture, but since neither of us understood ANYTHING about addictions, needless to say, none of his efforts stuck. His dad smoked and drank but was one of those people who one day just decided to quit, and did, so I guess that's what we thought all people did... wrong.
HRA knew that I wouldn't date or marry anyone who smoke or drank etc. so when the infatuation of the relationship wore off, we were married by then, he started back in with the dipping, but tried to hide it so he could do it and "wouldn't hurt me." Plus in his world, everybody did it, them it was ok. But then we had the trust issue come up and once again, since we knew nothing at the time about ADHD or addictions, I didn't know the struggle he was facing. I always said I would support him in recovery of those things, but he always refused my help. I guess because he really wasn't ready to give it all up.
We didn't know about ADHD until his daughters were diagnosed with it, and then looked back at his life and the light bulbs started to go off.
I didn't get enough therapy after my first divorce, and since I was a daughter of a gambler, same thing, and so was attracted to same kind of guy as the first. Thought he was different as first husband was controlling, second let me do whatever I wanted, although come to find out that also meant doing everything for him too.
When we were both practicing our Christian faith, things were good, but then when we didn't things got bad, add a horrible custody battle from my ex and his, plus a bankruptcy and disabling back injury following a car accident for husband, and anyone without extremely amazing coping skills would be driven to drink. In fact every counselor we saw would be amazed that we hadn't both jumped off a bridge, but RAH was coping by drinking, I just didn't know it yet.
So when recovery started 2 years ago, I was hopeful that he was ready to work on his issues, and he started off with a bang, graduating top of his classes in outpatient therapy, but "it only works if you work it." And he fell into lapses with other addictions, like t.v. , now you tube and constantly has ear phones in listening to something while home.
So, I have spent the last 5-6 years really in my own recovery, and now am pretty objective about the whole thing.
I don't want to stay in a marriage for the sake of marriage, because then it's just a joining of property and not anything Christian at all, because that would require the spouses giving to each other, listening to each other, attempting to understand each other. And right now it seems he's just stuck I the alcoholic rut.
Actually, there didn't seem to be anything in the big book, or any stories at AA meetings, or any advice from therapists to tell the alcoholic what to do when his family wasn't so angry at him that they were making his life miserable. No one had a situation where the wife actually was loving and accepting and wanted to help him in his recovery.
So then it was like the situation became reversed. All of a sudden he resented me, and didn't know if he could forgive me for all the wrongs? I did for him, when the whole time I should have had some huge resentments against him for the past 10 years of hell he put me through.
Yes, he was the baby of the family, and openly would say how he could manipulate people. So he constantly would turn the situation around where he would always end up the victim of the situation, even if it started that he had done something to hurt me. Another childhood wound to address and recover from....
I know that he has a lot of issues to work out, we all do, but at some time the goal is to emotionally mature so that we can start giving to others around us instead of simply just taking from others.
And he was lucky enough to have someone who actually wanted to grow with him, yet its like he wants to bite the hand that feeds him.
Why is that? Why can't two people get together who actually want to both give to each other?
It seems that I don't hear a lot of those stories. It's all about one spouse doing everything they can and the other taking them for granted. Maybe it's human nature, but I would hope that if I was shown kindness, that I wouldn't take it for granted.
I love the quote from the big book where Bill W. says..."Since the home has suffered more than anything else, it is well that a man exert himself there. He is not likely to get far in any direction if he fails to show unselfishness and love under his own roof. We know there are difficult wives and families, but the man who is getting over alcoholism must remember he did much to make them so."
I understand that there is not a one size fits all approach to anything, so having people see different angles to the same situation is very refreshing. Glad we're not all the same...
It's difficult to say which came first, the ADHD or the alcoholism. It's like the chicken and the egg conundrum, since ADHD people if not on medication seem to find a way to "self medicate," and he's done that his whole life, starting from chocolate/ food as a child, dip/alcohol as a teen, more alcohol/smoking/ drugs in college and young adulthood.
I caught him following g his divorce, at a come to Jesus moment, when he had supposedly given all that up way before I entere the picture, but since neither of us understood ANYTHING about addictions, needless to say, none of his efforts stuck. His dad smoked and drank but was one of those people who one day just decided to quit, and did, so I guess that's what we thought all people did... wrong.
HRA knew that I wouldn't date or marry anyone who smoke or drank etc. so when the infatuation of the relationship wore off, we were married by then, he started back in with the dipping, but tried to hide it so he could do it and "wouldn't hurt me." Plus in his world, everybody did it, them it was ok. But then we had the trust issue come up and once again, since we knew nothing at the time about ADHD or addictions, I didn't know the struggle he was facing. I always said I would support him in recovery of those things, but he always refused my help. I guess because he really wasn't ready to give it all up.
We didn't know about ADHD until his daughters were diagnosed with it, and then looked back at his life and the light bulbs started to go off.
I didn't get enough therapy after my first divorce, and since I was a daughter of a gambler, same thing, and so was attracted to same kind of guy as the first. Thought he was different as first husband was controlling, second let me do whatever I wanted, although come to find out that also meant doing everything for him too.
When we were both practicing our Christian faith, things were good, but then when we didn't things got bad, add a horrible custody battle from my ex and his, plus a bankruptcy and disabling back injury following a car accident for husband, and anyone without extremely amazing coping skills would be driven to drink. In fact every counselor we saw would be amazed that we hadn't both jumped off a bridge, but RAH was coping by drinking, I just didn't know it yet.
So when recovery started 2 years ago, I was hopeful that he was ready to work on his issues, and he started off with a bang, graduating top of his classes in outpatient therapy, but "it only works if you work it." And he fell into lapses with other addictions, like t.v. , now you tube and constantly has ear phones in listening to something while home.
So, I have spent the last 5-6 years really in my own recovery, and now am pretty objective about the whole thing.
I don't want to stay in a marriage for the sake of marriage, because then it's just a joining of property and not anything Christian at all, because that would require the spouses giving to each other, listening to each other, attempting to understand each other. And right now it seems he's just stuck I the alcoholic rut.
Actually, there didn't seem to be anything in the big book, or any stories at AA meetings, or any advice from therapists to tell the alcoholic what to do when his family wasn't so angry at him that they were making his life miserable. No one had a situation where the wife actually was loving and accepting and wanted to help him in his recovery.
So then it was like the situation became reversed. All of a sudden he resented me, and didn't know if he could forgive me for all the wrongs? I did for him, when the whole time I should have had some huge resentments against him for the past 10 years of hell he put me through.
Yes, he was the baby of the family, and openly would say how he could manipulate people. So he constantly would turn the situation around where he would always end up the victim of the situation, even if it started that he had done something to hurt me. Another childhood wound to address and recover from....
I know that he has a lot of issues to work out, we all do, but at some time the goal is to emotionally mature so that we can start giving to others around us instead of simply just taking from others.
And he was lucky enough to have someone who actually wanted to grow with him, yet its like he wants to bite the hand that feeds him.
Why is that? Why can't two people get together who actually want to both give to each other?
It seems that I don't hear a lot of those stories. It's all about one spouse doing everything they can and the other taking them for granted. Maybe it's human nature, but I would hope that if I was shown kindness, that I wouldn't take it for granted.
I love the quote from the big book where Bill W. says..."Since the home has suffered more than anything else, it is well that a man exert himself there. He is not likely to get far in any direction if he fails to show unselfishness and love under his own roof. We know there are difficult wives and families, but the man who is getting over alcoholism must remember he did much to make them so."
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
Our stories are very similar. And yes - it's a chicken & egg thing between the dual diagnoses. The common factor in everything boils down to HIS desire to change at a Core, Foundational Level. It sounds like he just isn't ready to put in the effort for that, or doesn't see the need.
You know, I'm not sure about this. First off - many people wait until they are so far down the rabbit hole that their spouses & families have had to abandon their efforts in order to save their own sanity. And those that DID have the luck of both loving support AND enough awareness to do something about it early on often don't stick around to share their stories - they get on with living their lives with living amends.
I recently read a book where the author spoke about how therapy is WONDERFUL but it's also intended to be a "boat" that carries you through turbulence to safer places. That we're meant to, at some point, get OFF the boat. That kind of resonates for me except that in my personal experience of recovery, it's more like I keep getting back in the boat & travelling new pathways through new waters to new places. More of a continual growth process for me as a person. I long-ago abandoned my "qualifying" reasons for needing a recovery & started to simply focus on being a Whole Person.
Now, the bolded part, above? I'm sure you've heard this before but the only way I have ever "helped" RAH in his recovery is by staying the heck out of the way. From his therapies to fixing his own consequences to addressing his childhood issues - it all HAD to come from inside him first in order to create any kind of sustainable recovery.
Actually, there didn't seem to be anything in the big book, or any stories at AA meetings, or any advice from therapists to tell the alcoholic what to do when his family wasn't so angry at him that they were making his life miserable. No one had a situation where the wife actually was loving and accepting and wanted to help him in his recovery.
I recently read a book where the author spoke about how therapy is WONDERFUL but it's also intended to be a "boat" that carries you through turbulence to safer places. That we're meant to, at some point, get OFF the boat. That kind of resonates for me except that in my personal experience of recovery, it's more like I keep getting back in the boat & travelling new pathways through new waters to new places. More of a continual growth process for me as a person. I long-ago abandoned my "qualifying" reasons for needing a recovery & started to simply focus on being a Whole Person.
Now, the bolded part, above? I'm sure you've heard this before but the only way I have ever "helped" RAH in his recovery is by staying the heck out of the way. From his therapies to fixing his own consequences to addressing his childhood issues - it all HAD to come from inside him first in order to create any kind of sustainable recovery.
Wifeofteoyearssober
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 24
Amen to that!
Thanks for the reminders.
We need to hear them to keep us going.
I do believe you have to eventually get off the boat, so to speak, but some people aren't very secure and sure of themselves, like some adult kids, and don't want to leave.
I would think that a therapist would say something after a few years, since true behavioral modification is only supposed to take something like 60 or 90 days to entrain a new way of thinking. Or move them to another therapist if they can't help them after that time.
My RAH is not willing to get off the boat, but I prefer not to drift aimlessly through life with him. I like the metaphor of going on different boats to more self discovery.
It's difficult though, as we all know, and that's why it's good to be here and give each other support. To see the light at the end of the tunnel from people,e who have been there and done that. Yes, everyone has a different journey, but that just adds to the amount of info that we can draw from.
One Day at a Time right?
I did find that in Alanon, many people were either at the shock phase of their just hitting bottom and trying to heal from all of their grief, or they just had kids who were alcoholics and they were trying to do the best they could for them, but a spouse is different, because you choose to love the other and when you stop making that choice then your spouse has the choice of whether to support your choice by staying or support your choice by leaving if the alcoholic spouse makes life with them unlivable.
Thanks for the prayers and support and I will be praying for all of you too that we have the courage and love to be able to take care of ourselves, and the alcoholics in our lives in whatever form that takes, even if it's from afar.
We need to hear them to keep us going.
I do believe you have to eventually get off the boat, so to speak, but some people aren't very secure and sure of themselves, like some adult kids, and don't want to leave.
I would think that a therapist would say something after a few years, since true behavioral modification is only supposed to take something like 60 or 90 days to entrain a new way of thinking. Or move them to another therapist if they can't help them after that time.
My RAH is not willing to get off the boat, but I prefer not to drift aimlessly through life with him. I like the metaphor of going on different boats to more self discovery.
It's difficult though, as we all know, and that's why it's good to be here and give each other support. To see the light at the end of the tunnel from people,e who have been there and done that. Yes, everyone has a different journey, but that just adds to the amount of info that we can draw from.
One Day at a Time right?
I did find that in Alanon, many people were either at the shock phase of their just hitting bottom and trying to heal from all of their grief, or they just had kids who were alcoholics and they were trying to do the best they could for them, but a spouse is different, because you choose to love the other and when you stop making that choice then your spouse has the choice of whether to support your choice by staying or support your choice by leaving if the alcoholic spouse makes life with them unlivable.
Thanks for the prayers and support and I will be praying for all of you too that we have the courage and love to be able to take care of ourselves, and the alcoholics in our lives in whatever form that takes, even if it's from afar.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
dear twoyears - here is something to think about......even IF he had been doing everything "perfectly" in recovery, by the book, meetings, steps, service work, community involvement, and baking you pancakes for breaksfast on sundays......that doesn't mean it's "enough" for you.
alcoholism CHANGES people.....and recovery CHANGES them again....but not always into the perfect partner, or the most sensitive, intuitive, hardworking person ever. often the "conversion" is on a much smaller scale. if they were self absorbed jerks before, they will now be SOBER self absorbed jerks, with maybe a smidge less attitude. or anger. recovery cannot touch any parts that the person does not which to be touched or changed. there must be a willingness, an offering up of SELF, only then can any REAL change take place.
alcoholism CHANGES people.....and recovery CHANGES them again....but not always into the perfect partner, or the most sensitive, intuitive, hardworking person ever. often the "conversion" is on a much smaller scale. if they were self absorbed jerks before, they will now be SOBER self absorbed jerks, with maybe a smidge less attitude. or anger. recovery cannot touch any parts that the person does not which to be touched or changed. there must be a willingness, an offering up of SELF, only then can any REAL change take place.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 11,481
Twoyears, I get where you're coming from. When XAH was allegedly in recovery, I was still unhappy--all the same problems we'd been having all along seemed to still be there. It seemed nothing had changed other than that he went to meetings several times a week. And I felt guilty b/c, according to him, I had "gotten my way" and so I should be content w/that. What the hell did I WANT, anyway??
The wise folk here told me that I didn't owe it to anyone to remain in an unhappy relationship, whether there was recovery or not. It was hard for me to take that in...after all, I'd been so sure that if he'd only stop drinking, everything would be just peachy, and he seemed to have stopped drinking, so why wasn't it peachy?!?
As it happened, I learned that he was never sober for more than a few days at a time, if that, and the "recovery" was all a front to appease me, so in the end, I didn't have to deal w/justifying my decision to end the marriage. Your situation is different in that your A apparently really IS sober, but he is NOT someone you can be comfortable or happy with, so it might be harder for you to make that break. For me, the question "if you met him now, would you even do a second date, let alone marry him?" helped clarify matters. Maybe it will for you too.
The wise folk here told me that I didn't owe it to anyone to remain in an unhappy relationship, whether there was recovery or not. It was hard for me to take that in...after all, I'd been so sure that if he'd only stop drinking, everything would be just peachy, and he seemed to have stopped drinking, so why wasn't it peachy?!?
As it happened, I learned that he was never sober for more than a few days at a time, if that, and the "recovery" was all a front to appease me, so in the end, I didn't have to deal w/justifying my decision to end the marriage. Your situation is different in that your A apparently really IS sober, but he is NOT someone you can be comfortable or happy with, so it might be harder for you to make that break. For me, the question "if you met him now, would you even do a second date, let alone marry him?" helped clarify matters. Maybe it will for you too.
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