When did you know you had to get off the ride?
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IMO, the "alcoholism is a disease" metaphor is a fundamentally flawed analogy because in most cases, and certainly in the case of the OP, the alcoholic avoids treatment at all costs. Most thinking people, given a diagnosis of a slow but terminal illness (which alcoholism is), in contrast would do anything to get better.
The analogy I would offer instead is this...the person you love has decided to commit suicide by burning the house down and you both with it. Love and tolerance shouldn't mean that you go out for lighter fluid, stock up on matches, and then stand by murmuring words of support and encouragement.
The analogy I would offer instead is this...the person you love has decided to commit suicide by burning the house down and you both with it. Love and tolerance shouldn't mean that you go out for lighter fluid, stock up on matches, and then stand by murmuring words of support and encouragement.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Originally Posted by jojo82 
Aye. Self hate is certainly not monopolized by the alcoholic.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Originally Posted by jojo82
That any relationship become truly abusive I support detachment.
Please refrain from advising abuse victims to "detach" without seeking the advice and assistance of a DV professional.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: atlanta, ga
Posts: 3,581
Originally Posted by jojo82
Sneaking drinks is something he does not control. It is compulsive and part of the disease.
You said it - there is nothing shocking about it at all!
Love and tolerance is our code.
You said it - there is nothing shocking about it at all!
Love and tolerance is our code.
Whenever I read someone referring to alcoholism with Cliche's akin to a romantic movie you know what I am sure of?
Their situation at home sucks just as bad as everyone else. They just sugar coat it to make that swallow tolerable. That's the only "tolerance" there is.
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 62
Originally Posted by redatlanta
"Love and Tolerance is our Code"
Whenever I read someone referring to alcoholism with Cliche's akin to a romantic movie you know what I am sure of?
Whenever I read someone referring to alcoholism with Cliche's akin to a romantic movie you know what I am sure of?
Their situation at home sucks just as bad as everyone else. They just sugar coat it to make that swallow tolerable. That's the only "tolerance" there is.
Tolerance requires work.
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Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 59
I knew when I no longer believed his magical thinking. He actually said to me the day before it all blew up that he could "see my future and it was a beautiful thing and I had nothing to worry about."
I knew when I remembered that I deserve more than to watch someone I wanted to build a life with continually sabotage his life (and, I if I had stayed with him, mine too) - after I had worked SO hard to get my life to the point where I wanted it to be and I was finally so at peace with myself - my staying with him was jeopardizing all the positive things I had done for myself.
I knew when he drank that last time and I realized how truly sick he is and that he is nowhere near having it under control and that I was tired of being anxious, of worrying about him, and of worrying about upcoming social engagements where alcohol might be a temptation for him. It was the last straw.
I knew when the fear of being single again was less worrisome than the fear of living in this rollercoaster of a relationship.
The first big signs of his alcoholism (which I did not recognize as such at the time because I was pretty naïve to addiction) appeared to me last NYE. We were at a fancy dress dinner party with my friends. He brought a bottle of wine and drank the whole thing - did not offer any to me. He got sloppy, sad drunk (there was also wine at the table for everyone). He pawed me and my dress all night and at the stroke of midnight laid a really gross slobbery kiss on me and wouldn't let me go even though I was clearly not enjoying it. He spilled wine on my friend's suit and when my friend said "hey!" he made fun of him. I was completely embarrassed. I drove him home - he did not want to stay at my place - I told him I was upset about his behaviour and he started bawling, cursing, and ranting about his problems etc etc in the car and then he stormed out to his apartment in a huff. It actually scared me and I was happy to not have him come stay at my place that night. I cried myself to sleep. The next day he was chagrined and we "made up" but I was on edge about it for weeks! I probably should have left then but I did not see it yet for what it really was.
This NYE I went stag, in an absolutely drop dead dress, felt amazing, and there was not one iota of crying or feeling sad. Such a relief.
I knew when I remembered that I deserve more than to watch someone I wanted to build a life with continually sabotage his life (and, I if I had stayed with him, mine too) - after I had worked SO hard to get my life to the point where I wanted it to be and I was finally so at peace with myself - my staying with him was jeopardizing all the positive things I had done for myself.
I knew when he drank that last time and I realized how truly sick he is and that he is nowhere near having it under control and that I was tired of being anxious, of worrying about him, and of worrying about upcoming social engagements where alcohol might be a temptation for him. It was the last straw.
I knew when the fear of being single again was less worrisome than the fear of living in this rollercoaster of a relationship.
The first big signs of his alcoholism (which I did not recognize as such at the time because I was pretty naïve to addiction) appeared to me last NYE. We were at a fancy dress dinner party with my friends. He brought a bottle of wine and drank the whole thing - did not offer any to me. He got sloppy, sad drunk (there was also wine at the table for everyone). He pawed me and my dress all night and at the stroke of midnight laid a really gross slobbery kiss on me and wouldn't let me go even though I was clearly not enjoying it. He spilled wine on my friend's suit and when my friend said "hey!" he made fun of him. I was completely embarrassed. I drove him home - he did not want to stay at my place - I told him I was upset about his behaviour and he started bawling, cursing, and ranting about his problems etc etc in the car and then he stormed out to his apartment in a huff. It actually scared me and I was happy to not have him come stay at my place that night. I cried myself to sleep. The next day he was chagrined and we "made up" but I was on edge about it for weeks! I probably should have left then but I did not see it yet for what it really was.
This NYE I went stag, in an absolutely drop dead dress, felt amazing, and there was not one iota of crying or feeling sad. Such a relief.
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,699
Is there not a difference between self love and love of self?
One being of ego, the other of service.
Neighbor as ourselves would place us second. No?
One being of ego, the other of service.
Neighbor as ourselves would place us second. No?
Many people here are clawing their way out of unhealthy relationships. We are learning self love for the first time in our 30's, 40's, 50's and beyond. We are beginning to understand alcoholism and codependency, and to turn our focus from their problem to correcting our flaws and building a healthy and happy life for ourselves - something we ALL deserve. We are trying to do this many times after being left next to nothing because we've dedicated a large portion of our lives thus far to someone skilled in taking, and incapable of giving.
Many of us contemplated leaving for YEARS before we found the courage and ability to do so. When our symptoms cause us to labor upon ourselves excess and unhealthy levels of guilt, shame, romanticization of abuse and self sacrifice, suggesting that "there is always an option to stay" in response to a question asking for experience in when we knew it was time to get off feels pretty triggering.
You are absolutely entitled to disagree with any of us and feel the way you do. Maybe starting your own thread for discussion on what you have done to get through the pains of loving an alcoholic, and why staying is beneficial to you would help curb the derailment of this thread by people like me. I believe many of us landed here feeling the way you do. I know I did - I felt my relationship was perfect if it weren't for his alcohol addiction. And I had no desire to leave - only to help him get better.
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 60
It wasn't an exceptional moment when I knew. I was just being ranted at again, nothing unusual, happened hundreds of times before. It was just all words coming out of him when he wanted to get effed up at 7 in the morning but he couldn't. He was raging at me because I wasn't enabling him enough, basically, and I needed to make it easier for him to get high.
But I wasn't afraid this time, and I wasn't doubting myself. For once I was really hearing the words coming out, and realized I was with a really sick person. It was the final drop in the cup that made it overflow.
But I wasn't afraid this time, and I wasn't doubting myself. For once I was really hearing the words coming out, and realized I was with a really sick person. It was the final drop in the cup that made it overflow.
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Western US
Posts: 9,017
Originally Posted by Ariesagain
IMO, the "alcoholism is a disease" metaphor is a fundamentally flawed analogy because in most cases, and certainly in the case of the OP, the alcoholic avoids treatment at all costs. Most thinking people, given a diagnosis of a slow but terminal illness (which alcoholism is), in contrast would do anything to get better.
The analogy I would offer instead is this...the person you love has decided to commit suicide by burning the house down and you both with it. Love and tolerance shouldn't mean that you go out for lighter fluid, stock up on matches, and then stand by murmuring words of support and encouragement.
The analogy I would offer instead is this...the person you love has decided to commit suicide by burning the house down and you both with it. Love and tolerance shouldn't mean that you go out for lighter fluid, stock up on matches, and then stand by murmuring words of support and encouragement.
I don't know if it is "love of self" or "self love" but either way, loving yourself at all means get out of that house and stay out until/unless your beloved puts away all flammable materials and starts figuring out why they wanted to burn the house/self down in the first place.
I do know we have folks here who stayed with their alcoholic and even those whose alcoholic sought and maintained recovery; however, at least here, it has been a rare story.
On the good side, the relationship with my qualifier was a wake up call to look at my own wounds and dysfunction. I gleaned a lot of humility and compassion from the experience. But man oh man was it difficult and Jojo and Smarie if either of you wind up spending your entire lives with your active user, I get it. I could have done that so easily.
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Coast
Posts: 1,235
Well, my sister is obviously not my Significant Other but I'll throw in my two cents.
My mom had threatened suicide after deciding to quit her anti-depressants (prescribed after her cancer diagnosis). Her doctors and I said she had to check herself into the ER for a psych eval or else we would call 911. My mom and dad were livid at me but I wasn't going to take any chances. I cried so hard I think I ran out of tears.
I called my ASister afterwards to tell her what happened and she said "I'm sorry, I can't help but start laughing." I still remember her cold, cold voice.
And that's when I knew I was done.
My mom had threatened suicide after deciding to quit her anti-depressants (prescribed after her cancer diagnosis). Her doctors and I said she had to check herself into the ER for a psych eval or else we would call 911. My mom and dad were livid at me but I wasn't going to take any chances. I cried so hard I think I ran out of tears.
I called my ASister afterwards to tell her what happened and she said "I'm sorry, I can't help but start laughing." I still remember her cold, cold voice.
And that's when I knew I was done.
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,805
I Posted this on a previous thread, but it bears repeating:
I guess my story is a little different because my alcoholic is my mom. I went no contact with she and my enabling father about 9 months ago. It was Easter Sunday. My family and I had gone to my parents' house to visit. My sister and her family were staying with them. The visit went reasonably well. In fact, driving on the way home my husband remarked that it had been a fine, no drama day. I remember thinking about that and how our holidays were always hijacked by wondering which way it was going to go with my alcoholic mom's behavior. I remember thinking that it really wasn't fair that we were "relieved" when she was reasonably behaved. That we shouldn't have to spend our holidays "in hope" that events would be "fine."
Anyway, in the middle of that night, I received one of the worst phone calls of my life. My mother was in a mean, callous drunken mood and was informing me that she and my sister had gotten into an argument and that my sister had gone missing in her pjs, without her purse or phone. The police, my father and my brother-in-law were all searching the beach for my sister. My mother was on the phone with me, matter-the-factly saying that I needed to be there for my mother, that my mother didn't want to alarm me, but it was like my sister was saying "good-bye." My mother was in CYA mode putting my sister and her husband down in the meanest of ways with my young niece and nephew within earshot. She was not in any way interested in looking for my sister. I was absolutely hysterical. Luckily, my sister was found, physically unharmed. A complete, total calmness came over me that night after I knew my sister was alright and I had such complete clarity that I would no longer accept any more of the drama and abuse that comes with my mother's issues. I would no longer expose myself or my family to the pain and suffering and unpredictability that comes from loving an alcoholic.
I used to read this forum a lot but I left it in January, feeling like I had everything under "control." Since most of the people on this forum are in marriages or partnerships with alcoholics, I often felt I couldn't relate. I would look at their stories and think, "GET OUT! Why would you subject yourself to this horrible relationship?" I never really saw that I was just the same.
When the light bulb goes off, when the clarity is so bright it almost blinds you, when your pitcher of tolerance is so full it can't possibly take another drop, there is also a steadfast calm serenity of just knowing. I guess it is surrender and it is such a relief.
I guess my story is a little different because my alcoholic is my mom. I went no contact with she and my enabling father about 9 months ago. It was Easter Sunday. My family and I had gone to my parents' house to visit. My sister and her family were staying with them. The visit went reasonably well. In fact, driving on the way home my husband remarked that it had been a fine, no drama day. I remember thinking about that and how our holidays were always hijacked by wondering which way it was going to go with my alcoholic mom's behavior. I remember thinking that it really wasn't fair that we were "relieved" when she was reasonably behaved. That we shouldn't have to spend our holidays "in hope" that events would be "fine."
Anyway, in the middle of that night, I received one of the worst phone calls of my life. My mother was in a mean, callous drunken mood and was informing me that she and my sister had gotten into an argument and that my sister had gone missing in her pjs, without her purse or phone. The police, my father and my brother-in-law were all searching the beach for my sister. My mother was on the phone with me, matter-the-factly saying that I needed to be there for my mother, that my mother didn't want to alarm me, but it was like my sister was saying "good-bye." My mother was in CYA mode putting my sister and her husband down in the meanest of ways with my young niece and nephew within earshot. She was not in any way interested in looking for my sister. I was absolutely hysterical. Luckily, my sister was found, physically unharmed. A complete, total calmness came over me that night after I knew my sister was alright and I had such complete clarity that I would no longer accept any more of the drama and abuse that comes with my mother's issues. I would no longer expose myself or my family to the pain and suffering and unpredictability that comes from loving an alcoholic.
I used to read this forum a lot but I left it in January, feeling like I had everything under "control." Since most of the people on this forum are in marriages or partnerships with alcoholics, I often felt I couldn't relate. I would look at their stories and think, "GET OUT! Why would you subject yourself to this horrible relationship?" I never really saw that I was just the same.
When the light bulb goes off, when the clarity is so bright it almost blinds you, when your pitcher of tolerance is so full it can't possibly take another drop, there is also a steadfast calm serenity of just knowing. I guess it is surrender and it is such a relief.
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Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 430
My comment doesn't answer the OP, but I want to point out that sometimes staying with an active alcoholic may be doing everyone a disservice, which begs the question posed by Jojo about what "love" is.
Someone has already mentioned the idea of getting out of the way of the other person's addiction; in my case, leaving my STBXAH contributed to his getting more sober than he has been in 30 years. Now he has to do Soberlink to have our kids. He wants partial custody, so he complies and doesn't drink during his custodial period. I was never, never, able to nudge him to anything close to that length of sobriety when we were together.
Someone has already mentioned the idea of getting out of the way of the other person's addiction; in my case, leaving my STBXAH contributed to his getting more sober than he has been in 30 years. Now he has to do Soberlink to have our kids. He wants partial custody, so he complies and doesn't drink during his custodial period. I was never, never, able to nudge him to anything close to that length of sobriety when we were together.
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Western US
Posts: 9,017
Originally Posted by DoubleDragons
I Posted this on a previous thread, but it bears repeating:
I guess my story is a little different because my alcoholic is my mom. I went no contact with she and my enabling father about 9 months ago. It was Easter Sunday. My family and I had gone to my parents' house to visit. My sister and her family were staying with them. The visit went reasonably well. In fact, driving on the way home my husband remarked that it had been a fine, no drama day. I remember thinking about that and how our holidays were always hijacked by wondering which way it was going to go with my alcoholic mom's behavior. I remember thinking that it really wasn't fair that we were "relieved" when she was reasonably behaved. That we shouldn't have to spend our holidays "in hope" that events would be "fine."
Anyway, in the middle of that night, I received one of the worst phone calls of my life. My mother was in a mean, callous drunken mood and was informing me that she and my sister had gotten into an argument and that my sister had gone missing in her pjs, without her purse or phone. The police, my father and my brother-in-law were all searching the beach for my sister. My mother was on the phone with me, matter-the-factly saying that I needed to be there for my mother, that my mother didn't want to alarm me, but it was like my sister was saying "good-bye." My mother was in CYA mode putting my sister and her husband down in the meanest of ways with my young niece and nephew within earshot. She was not in any way interested in looking for my sister. I was absolutely hysterical. Luckily, my sister was found, physically unharmed. A complete, total calmness came over me that night after I knew my sister was alright and I had such complete clarity that I would no longer accept any more of the drama and abuse that comes with my mother's issues. I would no longer expose myself or my family to the pain and suffering and unpredictability that comes from loving an alcoholic.
I used to read this forum a lot but I left it in January, feeling like I had everything under "control." Since most of the people on this forum are in marriages or partnerships with alcoholics, I often felt I couldn't relate. I would look at their stories and think, "GET OUT! Why would you subject yourself to this horrible relationship?" I never really saw that I was just the same.
When the light bulb goes off, when the clarity is so bright it almost blinds you, when your pitcher of tolerance is so full it can't possibly take another drop, there is also a steadfast calm serenity of just knowing. I guess it is surrender and it is such a relief.
I guess my story is a little different because my alcoholic is my mom. I went no contact with she and my enabling father about 9 months ago. It was Easter Sunday. My family and I had gone to my parents' house to visit. My sister and her family were staying with them. The visit went reasonably well. In fact, driving on the way home my husband remarked that it had been a fine, no drama day. I remember thinking about that and how our holidays were always hijacked by wondering which way it was going to go with my alcoholic mom's behavior. I remember thinking that it really wasn't fair that we were "relieved" when she was reasonably behaved. That we shouldn't have to spend our holidays "in hope" that events would be "fine."
Anyway, in the middle of that night, I received one of the worst phone calls of my life. My mother was in a mean, callous drunken mood and was informing me that she and my sister had gotten into an argument and that my sister had gone missing in her pjs, without her purse or phone. The police, my father and my brother-in-law were all searching the beach for my sister. My mother was on the phone with me, matter-the-factly saying that I needed to be there for my mother, that my mother didn't want to alarm me, but it was like my sister was saying "good-bye." My mother was in CYA mode putting my sister and her husband down in the meanest of ways with my young niece and nephew within earshot. She was not in any way interested in looking for my sister. I was absolutely hysterical. Luckily, my sister was found, physically unharmed. A complete, total calmness came over me that night after I knew my sister was alright and I had such complete clarity that I would no longer accept any more of the drama and abuse that comes with my mother's issues. I would no longer expose myself or my family to the pain and suffering and unpredictability that comes from loving an alcoholic.
I used to read this forum a lot but I left it in January, feeling like I had everything under "control." Since most of the people on this forum are in marriages or partnerships with alcoholics, I often felt I couldn't relate. I would look at their stories and think, "GET OUT! Why would you subject yourself to this horrible relationship?" I never really saw that I was just the same.
When the light bulb goes off, when the clarity is so bright it almost blinds you, when your pitcher of tolerance is so full it can't possibly take another drop, there is also a steadfast calm serenity of just knowing. I guess it is surrender and it is such a relief.
Deep respect here for what you are doing and to me this is true love: for yourself, your husband and your children. I remember watching my foster sister hang up on her father when he was drunk and realizing she was doing the right thing AKA getting out of the burning house. Really tough stuff.
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 994
"Sneaking drinks is something he does not control. It is compulsive and part of the disease. "
Well Joojo sneaking drinks was what he did cos he is sneaky and a liar and he knew full well that he was taking money that belonged to the household bills to pay for things like food and heating.
Well Joojo sneaking drinks was what he did cos he is sneaky and a liar and he knew full well that he was taking money that belonged to the household bills to pay for things like food and heating.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Originally Posted by Lilro
Hey Redatlanta!!
It's crazy how you just one day SNAP, right?!?!?!? After all the BS and the smallest thing sets you off and running.... Love that!!!
Head up girl... You are on your way!!! Go, Go, Go.........
It's crazy how you just one day SNAP, right?!?!?!? After all the BS and the smallest thing sets you off and running.... Love that!!!
Head up girl... You are on your way!!! Go, Go, Go.........
I've experience both kinds of "moments of clarity"--when the fog lifts and you can suddenly SEE.
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,699
It's not unlike the "moment of clarity" that alcoholics get when they KNOW they have to get sober, whatever it takes.
I've experience both kinds of "moments of clarity"--when the fog lifts and you can suddenly SEE.
I've experience both kinds of "moments of clarity"--when the fog lifts and you can suddenly SEE.
And so much of my awakening came down to me not being able to live with myself they way I had become anymore...more so than the alcoholics progression.
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Arizona
Posts: 407
After 20 years of marriage (3 years ago), the occasional disdain for my ideas and suggestions emerged as constant contempt. For me and our DD. Nothing we said or did had any redeeming value, and he constantly belittled us, at least until he passed out around 7pm.
Experts say that a marriage is doomed once one of the partners shows contempt, and it was true in our case. I recognized that I could not live the rest of my life or protect our DD from his verbal assaults under those circumstances. Who knows! I may not have been so eager to end it if he hadn't been so nasty, but I am so much happier now that I am out of that situation.
Experts say that a marriage is doomed once one of the partners shows contempt, and it was true in our case. I recognized that I could not live the rest of my life or protect our DD from his verbal assaults under those circumstances. Who knows! I may not have been so eager to end it if he hadn't been so nasty, but I am so much happier now that I am out of that situation.
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miles from Nowhere
Posts: 396
IMO, the "alcoholism is a disease" metaphor is a fundamentally flawed analogy because in most cases, and certainly in the case of the OP, the alcoholic avoids treatment at all costs. Most thinking people, given a diagnosis of a slow but terminal illness (which alcoholism is), in contrast would do anything to get better.
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