Red flags vs issues
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An occasional visitor to my alanon home group posed an interesting question; her "alanon-isms" prompted her to change red flags to green in her relationships, and I think the reverse is also possible; green flags turned to red.
In her case she shared about her excitement addiction; where the unavailability and volatility of the alcoholics to which she was attracted were red flags but she found the excitement turned them green with the expected consequences. I propose the reverse based upon a later share where she discussed a "safe" relationship ie "green" indications were made red because they weren't exciting enough.
I've certainly lived some of the latter- not so much from excitement but out of fear of rejection; as moving forward increased my fear of rejection; in effect I would abandon my role and defer action to my partner. Being paralyzed by fear I would turn an obvious green situation into red.
In her case she shared about her excitement addiction; where the unavailability and volatility of the alcoholics to which she was attracted were red flags but she found the excitement turned them green with the expected consequences. I propose the reverse based upon a later share where she discussed a "safe" relationship ie "green" indications were made red because they weren't exciting enough.
I've certainly lived some of the latter- not so much from excitement but out of fear of rejection; as moving forward increased my fear of rejection; in effect I would abandon my role and defer action to my partner. Being paralyzed by fear I would turn an obvious green situation into red.
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One big red flag would be a dysfunctional FOO. Many people overcome this and live healthy lives but it takes a lot of will power. If a partner has a warped FOO and thinks it's normal, well watch out.
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Originally Posted by Lilro 
What's a FOO?
We have a list of acronyms
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-acronyms.html
but I see it is lacking FOO and FOC, so I will go add them.
Mike
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There is another thing. I used to see the reg flags 10 years ago just as well as I see them today. But today, I do not have the attitude of "love conquers all" and living an illusion that my love could fix him, that is, that he will "see the light." And probably, because of this illusion, back then, the red flags were only "issues" that I thought we could overcome.
A lot of recovery comes with growing old and maturity, IMHO. My expectations of people are probably (hopefully?) more realistic.
A lot of recovery comes with growing old and maturity, IMHO. My expectations of people are probably (hopefully?) more realistic.
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Ok--I think when someone says they have an issue they could just as well be saying they have a 'problem'- problems can run the gamut--is it a big problem; so big it's going to have a big impact on your life in a not very good way?? Or is it a type of problem that isn't going give you too much grief?? To me a serious 'issue' can serve as a red flag...
A red flag is like a warning sign.... Or it is a bad sign of something very serious. Red flags -- if we pick up on them -- should sort of warn us away from danger...but sometimes we don't take heed to a red flag when we are in love--Love is blind--sometimes we don't even notice those warning signs--pretty hard to pay heed to something you don't notice or are in denial about...
A red flag is like a warning sign.... Or it is a bad sign of something very serious. Red flags -- if we pick up on them -- should sort of warn us away from danger...but sometimes we don't take heed to a red flag when we are in love--Love is blind--sometimes we don't even notice those warning signs--pretty hard to pay heed to something you don't notice or are in denial about...
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Fourourgirls.....if you would like to dig more deeply into the business of attraction in relationships.....you might want to read some about Imago Theory....which was proposed by Harville Hendrix. (he is a well-known relationship therapist who has published a lot and you might have seen him on Oprah a few times). It is thought provoking.
Basically, he proposes that part of what we are attracted to in a partner is unconscious. That what we seek is a composite of the many parts of our influential caretakers as we were growing up....both the positive and negative parts. This is important...because the negative is just as important as the p ositive. We tend to match up with others whose composit is very similar to our own. *even if it doesn't look the same n the surface).
I found the basic theory (Imago Theory)....very interesting and informative.
A word of warning, though....he has founded a well known school of training for therapists.....and has written a lot of books for couples...but, he does not recommend this to be applied in relationships where there is addictions or abuse of any kind.
If you ever do delve Into this theory of attraction...I would be interested in hearing your opinion......
dandylion
Basically, he proposes that part of what we are attracted to in a partner is unconscious. That what we seek is a composite of the many parts of our influential caretakers as we were growing up....both the positive and negative parts. This is important...because the negative is just as important as the p ositive. We tend to match up with others whose composit is very similar to our own. *even if it doesn't look the same n the surface).
I found the basic theory (Imago Theory)....very interesting and informative.
A word of warning, though....he has founded a well known school of training for therapists.....and has written a lot of books for couples...but, he does not recommend this to be applied in relationships where there is addictions or abuse of any kind.
If you ever do delve Into this theory of attraction...I would be interested in hearing your opinion......
dandylion
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Generally speaking, I'm not a big fan of Cosmo as a source of relationship advice. But this article just popped up on one of my news pages, and I think it's pretty right on: 20 Signs You're With the Man You Should Marry. Seems to me that if you've got a lot of those going for you, it's pretty promising. Most guys with the major "red flags" aren't going to make us feel like that.
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^^Well-then something happened bc our relationship hit pretty much all of those at the beginning. Once addiction enters the picture, and truthfully we were both just drunks-only I didn't want to be and always knew I would pull myself out, it changes-and ruins-all of those good things.
Dandy-interesting; I will have to take a looksee at that book-very thought provoking topic. Something my therapist and I have gone over so much in therapy is the "why did you do that"....so, why did I pick my ex? Well, he most likely resembled my dad-which us what I knew of men-and he was an addict that maybe of he quit for me (oh how romantic!) that it would validate me. Major self esteem issues, codependence and fears-of abandonment, etc. Felt I would be complete if someone loved me enough to marry me. Sad to admit...when you see it written out. And I think we as humans just do what we know unless radically and purposely choose healing, truth and a different direction/path. As much as my ex slowly morphed into his abusive delusional angry father, I too morphed slowly fr a fun person to my mother! And my life was starting to play out just like hers bc it's all I knew-spending nights crying by myself bc of something he had done to me, feeling stuck, and just trying to put on a happy face abd play the part when around others. He did succeed at tearing my self esteem down to nothing-he seemed proud of that. When sober he was great/terrific...when drunk he was literally his father-a drunk little bully. He tore me down bc he felt so little about himself. I know that. It was surreal-I think as much as he searched out independent, smart driven women (which is what he stated he loved about me), he truly did not want those and honestly wanted his mother. Seriously. He literally wanted me to love him like she did. And toward the end he treated me the same way his dad treated his mom-which was the opposite of love. We both had dysfunctional families - only my sister and I grew up and decided to not live in denial anymore and have confronted our parents multiple times-and drew boundaries (thst my mom doesn't like), etc. My therapist truly thinks my ex hates his mom somewhere deep down bc she didn't take care of him as a child-and God knows whst other secrets he carries-not mine to judge. It was twisted to say the least and it was like that at the beginning-I just chose not to run bc I did love him. Love is blind.
Dandy-interesting; I will have to take a looksee at that book-very thought provoking topic. Something my therapist and I have gone over so much in therapy is the "why did you do that"....so, why did I pick my ex? Well, he most likely resembled my dad-which us what I knew of men-and he was an addict that maybe of he quit for me (oh how romantic!) that it would validate me. Major self esteem issues, codependence and fears-of abandonment, etc. Felt I would be complete if someone loved me enough to marry me. Sad to admit...when you see it written out. And I think we as humans just do what we know unless radically and purposely choose healing, truth and a different direction/path. As much as my ex slowly morphed into his abusive delusional angry father, I too morphed slowly fr a fun person to my mother! And my life was starting to play out just like hers bc it's all I knew-spending nights crying by myself bc of something he had done to me, feeling stuck, and just trying to put on a happy face abd play the part when around others. He did succeed at tearing my self esteem down to nothing-he seemed proud of that. When sober he was great/terrific...when drunk he was literally his father-a drunk little bully. He tore me down bc he felt so little about himself. I know that. It was surreal-I think as much as he searched out independent, smart driven women (which is what he stated he loved about me), he truly did not want those and honestly wanted his mother. Seriously. He literally wanted me to love him like she did. And toward the end he treated me the same way his dad treated his mom-which was the opposite of love. We both had dysfunctional families - only my sister and I grew up and decided to not live in denial anymore and have confronted our parents multiple times-and drew boundaries (thst my mom doesn't like), etc. My therapist truly thinks my ex hates his mom somewhere deep down bc she didn't take care of him as a child-and God knows whst other secrets he carries-not mine to judge. It was twisted to say the least and it was like that at the beginning-I just chose not to run bc I did love him. Love is blind.
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I met a longtime friend for lunch today-she said she had decided on her own to read "the psychopath next door" or sonething like that (cabt recall exact title). She grabbed my hand and said-yes, I know you loved him-the good stuff-BUT his demons were hallmarks abd reading this book I could not help think of your ex and all the red flags that were there. She begged me to never overlook red flags again and I promised her (and myself) that I wouldn't.
God is good and always answers right on time.
God is good and always answers right on time.
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Forourgirls-
I did find the work that Dandy talked about helpful......it gave me a "purpose" for why I had choosen the relationship that I did with a problem drinker. I choose it to work out and heal from my FOO stuff.....and it gave me permission to do that without being IN the relationship any longer. It helped me to see that there was a purpose to the acute discomfort and pain I experienced as it had to get that uncomfortable to force me to choose differently.
I am quite some time out from my relationship and still don't think I am ready to date.
I think the questions you pose about issues and flags are important but I wanted to add another piece.
I won't be ready for dating for a bit yet. I won't be ready until it matters less what another's issues/red flags are and more THAT regardless of what they are I KNOW that I am the most important person in my relationship and I can choose to remove myself whenever those concerns appear and I decide if I cannot live with them or not.
I think my concern is that I know the red flags of addiction of my exAH, but another's red flags will be different. If I just have a list of previous concerns or a list from this wise fellowship I can guarantee that it will be another red flag that I will find in a relationship. If I keep my needs, my self-care and myself in the proper proportion in ALL my relationships (intimate or not) I can't go wrong because I now have the skills to get out of them when needed.
I did find the work that Dandy talked about helpful......it gave me a "purpose" for why I had choosen the relationship that I did with a problem drinker. I choose it to work out and heal from my FOO stuff.....and it gave me permission to do that without being IN the relationship any longer. It helped me to see that there was a purpose to the acute discomfort and pain I experienced as it had to get that uncomfortable to force me to choose differently.
I am quite some time out from my relationship and still don't think I am ready to date.
I think the questions you pose about issues and flags are important but I wanted to add another piece.
I won't be ready for dating for a bit yet. I won't be ready until it matters less what another's issues/red flags are and more THAT regardless of what they are I KNOW that I am the most important person in my relationship and I can choose to remove myself whenever those concerns appear and I decide if I cannot live with them or not.
I think my concern is that I know the red flags of addiction of my exAH, but another's red flags will be different. If I just have a list of previous concerns or a list from this wise fellowship I can guarantee that it will be another red flag that I will find in a relationship. If I keep my needs, my self-care and myself in the proper proportion in ALL my relationships (intimate or not) I can't go wrong because I now have the skills to get out of them when needed.
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Originally Posted by Forourgirls
^^Well-then something happened bc our relationship hit pretty much all of those at the beginning. Once addiction enters the picture, it changes-and ruins-all of those good things.
All of that contributed to why it has taken me so long to finally reach where I am now. I just can't believe that it's all gone. It seemed so real once upon a time--it WAS real, as real as all the things he fixed/built/did for me over the years. But yet the lying and hiding and stealing went on underneath it all, even as he bragged about me and opened car doors for me.
I don't have an answer for the OP, but this is a good topic and thanks for raising it.
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I don't think there always ARE red flags. It's like my foundation problem with my house--I did all the right stuff, had it inspected, but unknown to me, there was a problem that simply had not yet developed to the point where it was visible.
There are no guarantees in life, whether it's houses or relationships. Sometimes they go bad without a whole lot of obvious clues until you're already invested, ya know?
There are no guarantees in life, whether it's houses or relationships. Sometimes they go bad without a whole lot of obvious clues until you're already invested, ya know?
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From a male perspective here. Red means caution or beware. Issues are facts of life or events. Some can be redflags, but the more we live and gain wisdom, the more we can deal with an issue and put on the brakes to a red flag.
And a lot depends on how open the person is about taking about and owning it.
Example. I met a woman for a casual date. Nothing more than a light dinner and discussion . Turns out her ex was a convicted felon for Medicare fraud. She owned that, didn't try and hide it, and was clearly having to make the best of this for the sake of the children . It was an issue at that point. Not even a particularly big one by then. However had she not been upfront and it got discovered later, it had potential to be a red flag. I am not going to run from someone that may have experienced something in thier lives I haven't. But I'm willing to listen.
Look some people live with thier parents to provide care for them. I listen to the issue and the circumstance. Unless or until it's just a screaming red flag. I am probably super sensitive to anyone that likes drinking too much. Or sex. Or anything to excess. But that is .y personal level of tolerance. You may feel differently.
And a lot depends on how open the person is about taking about and owning it.
Example. I met a woman for a casual date. Nothing more than a light dinner and discussion . Turns out her ex was a convicted felon for Medicare fraud. She owned that, didn't try and hide it, and was clearly having to make the best of this for the sake of the children . It was an issue at that point. Not even a particularly big one by then. However had she not been upfront and it got discovered later, it had potential to be a red flag. I am not going to run from someone that may have experienced something in thier lives I haven't. But I'm willing to listen.
Look some people live with thier parents to provide care for them. I listen to the issue and the circumstance. Unless or until it's just a screaming red flag. I am probably super sensitive to anyone that likes drinking too much. Or sex. Or anything to excess. But that is .y personal level of tolerance. You may feel differently.
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Another male perspective, for what it's worth.
Red flags are things that are indicators of a potential problem, which should warn us to be perceptive of the presence of other red flags.
For example, here are a list of red flags for a diagnosis of sociopathy:
- Glibness or superficial charm,
- Manipulative and cunning,
- Grandiose sense of self,
- Pathological lying,
- Lack of remorse, shame, or guilt,
- Shallow emotions,
- Incapacity for love,
- Constant need for stimulation,
- Callous / lack of empathy,
- Impulsive,
- Early behavior problems,
- Irresponsibility,
- Promiscuity,
- Parasitic lifestyle,
- Engages in harmful or reckless behavior.
Now, if you come across a toddler who is grabby with their toys (i.e. won't share) and lies a lot, you won't jump to the conclusion that this toddler is a sociopath who should be avoided at all costs. Similarly, if you accused a skydiver of being a sociopath simply because they seek constant thrills, you would very likely be wrong in your assumption. It is only the presence of a significant number of red flags that allow a threshold to be crossed in saying "yes, this person is probably a sociopath/alcoholic/whatever."
Things that show a blatant standalone warning such as abuse, constant binge drinking, etc... those I would refer to as "stop signs." Because really, you don't need any more hints about what is going on there.
Finally, when I think of the term "issues," I think of aspects of somebody's personality or lifestyle that I don't necessarily like, but which I wouldn't call red flags or stop signs. For example, I've started to look into online dating websites and they match me with a lot of people, but many of them list themselves as social drinkers on their profiles. Being a social drinker isn't a red flag, and it isn't a stop sign, but for me it's an issue because I only want to look for people who don't drink at all.
Red flags are things that are indicators of a potential problem, which should warn us to be perceptive of the presence of other red flags.
For example, here are a list of red flags for a diagnosis of sociopathy:
- Glibness or superficial charm,
- Manipulative and cunning,
- Grandiose sense of self,
- Pathological lying,
- Lack of remorse, shame, or guilt,
- Shallow emotions,
- Incapacity for love,
- Constant need for stimulation,
- Callous / lack of empathy,
- Impulsive,
- Early behavior problems,
- Irresponsibility,
- Promiscuity,
- Parasitic lifestyle,
- Engages in harmful or reckless behavior.
Now, if you come across a toddler who is grabby with their toys (i.e. won't share) and lies a lot, you won't jump to the conclusion that this toddler is a sociopath who should be avoided at all costs. Similarly, if you accused a skydiver of being a sociopath simply because they seek constant thrills, you would very likely be wrong in your assumption. It is only the presence of a significant number of red flags that allow a threshold to be crossed in saying "yes, this person is probably a sociopath/alcoholic/whatever."
Things that show a blatant standalone warning such as abuse, constant binge drinking, etc... those I would refer to as "stop signs." Because really, you don't need any more hints about what is going on there.
Finally, when I think of the term "issues," I think of aspects of somebody's personality or lifestyle that I don't necessarily like, but which I wouldn't call red flags or stop signs. For example, I've started to look into online dating websites and they match me with a lot of people, but many of them list themselves as social drinkers on their profiles. Being a social drinker isn't a red flag, and it isn't a stop sign, but for me it's an issue because I only want to look for people who don't drink at all.
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Honeypig-yep! My ex wore his mask well-constantly bragging about he while getting rip roaring drunk at home and doing God knows what. I recalled (after your post) about my sisters wedding last summer (2014). My ex drank a ton and then of course we had to leave the weddibg-it was around 11. We are walking our kids back with another couple and they say sonething like you're a lucky man-your wife is beautiful-sonething like that. He responds in all his glory proclaiming that he is indeed lucky bc thank God for me, I keep him sane. We go back to hotel room and he decides he wants a burger-naturally I know that's code for "I want to drink more". So he leaves me in the room with two tired screaming kids and gets a burger. Returns over an hour later with bloodshot eyes and slurring about how the cook was slow and it just took forever. I shared the burger with him and did not confront him-pointless. I laid down beside my 5 year old (at the time) and tried to go to sleep. He started touching me and pawing me telling me how stunning I was. I was disgusted as he couldn't even talk straight. I pushed him off and he said, God-you fu**ing suck, and went to sleep. I awoke in the middle if the night to my then 16 month old screaming bloody Mudder bc she didn't know where she was-and I pry open my eyes and see my husband dragging her crib around the room and yelling at her. Wtf?! I grabbed her and calmed her down abd he slurred he was looking for his room keys and wallet. Wtf?! Then he passed out. I confronted him the next day and of course he got plastered that night and cursed me out-told me he was sleep walking (uh, yeah-never sleep walked ever). So-hmmm....mask of making everyone think he was sooooo great to me and how he cherished me-only I got to see the real him-the person nobody believed was him. There are still a lot of people that only see his mask-and I don't try to convince anyone-nor do I defend my actins-I got away from a crazy person-case closed. And I'm a better mom, friend and human with him gone. Covert abuse at it's finest I tell you!
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I laid down beside my 5 year old (at the time) and tried to go to sleep. He started touching me and pawing me telling me how stunning I was. I was disgusted as he couldn't even talk straight. I pushed him off and he said, God-you fu**ing suck, and went to sleep. I awoke in the middle if the night to my then 16 month old screaming bloody Mudder bc she didn't know where she was-and I pry open my eyes and see my husband dragging her crib around the room and yelling at her. Wtf?! I grabbed her and calmed her down abd he slurred he was looking for his room keys and wallet. Wtf?! Then he passed out. I confronted him the next day and of course he got plastered that night and cursed me out-told me he was sleep walking (uh, yeah-never sleep walked ever).
My ex did this exact type of stuff. He'd drink to the point where he lost any semblance of control, lie about ridiculous things. He was a sexual bully, and nasty and crude when he didn't get his way. He'd terrorize the me and the kids and literally remember nothing about it the next day, but make up ludicrous excuses when confronted or get raging angry when faced with the reality of his behavior.
It was such a demoralizing way to live, the fear and shame and exhaustion. I feel horrible for subjecting my children to it. Especially because I should have known better, being an acoa.
I'm just really gun shy about starting a new relationship. If I'm attracted to someone, I almost feel like that's a red flag in and of itself because my judgement and choice of relationship partners has been so bad in the past. If I like him, he's probably be an alcoholic, animal torturing, child molesting, serial killer or something.
My ex did this exact type of stuff. He'd drink to the point where he lost any semblance of control, lie about ridiculous things. He was a sexual bully, and nasty and crude when he didn't get his way. He'd terrorize the me and the kids and literally remember nothing about it the next day, but make up ludicrous excuses when confronted or get raging angry when faced with the reality of his behavior.
It was such a demoralizing way to live, the fear and shame and exhaustion. I feel horrible for subjecting my children to it. Especially because I should have known better, being an acoa.
I'm just really gun shy about starting a new relationship. If I'm attracted to someone, I almost feel like that's a red flag in and of itself because my judgement and choice of relationship partners has been so bad in the past. If I like him, he's probably be an alcoholic, animal torturing, child molesting, serial killer or something.
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Well I've dated some real whoppers since I left my XAH....it's hard to see the flags BUT what I've gotten better at is seeing them faster. So I dated one control freak (codie to the max...OMG worse than the A let me tell you) and one person that was plain old too young.
With the too young guy that wasn't his issue but mine - no Aeryn you can't expect a serious relationship with someone so young! Duh.
With the control freak...here are the flags I missed:
**a big one was his claim his was always "honest"...and he was but he would always give his "honest opinion"... at the expense of someone's feelings! Not cool.
**Another one was getting mad and over focused on small things that don't matter...things like Taco Bell giving him the wrong taco sent him in a tailspin. Weird, annoying and not cool.
I wasted a bit of time with both of these guys but lessons learned...moving forward.
With the too young guy that wasn't his issue but mine - no Aeryn you can't expect a serious relationship with someone so young! Duh.
With the control freak...here are the flags I missed:
**a big one was his claim his was always "honest"...and he was but he would always give his "honest opinion"... at the expense of someone's feelings! Not cool.
**Another one was getting mad and over focused on small things that don't matter...things like Taco Bell giving him the wrong taco sent him in a tailspin. Weird, annoying and not cool.
I wasted a bit of time with both of these guys but lessons learned...moving forward.
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