What if I really do cause it?
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Originally Posted by readerbaby71 
Blue Chair never stated that the OP did anything to trigger her husband to drink. In fact, she never stated that anyone triggers anyone to drink, just that triggers are real. Addicts sometimes use their triggers as an excuse to drink, and she did not refute that. People DO affect (not cause) each other's behavior. I think she is being very misunderstood in this thread. Just because she has a differing opinion (that she has explained very well if you read all her posts), she does not deserve to be attacked or talked down to.
We've all seen posters on here who seem to revel in the drama of their situations. The OP is new and even if you believe in "triggering" there is no reason to accuse her of being one or even to legitimize the ridiculousness of the speculation. All posts like yours do is harm the OP. Hope that's clear how I feel about the "argument".
This new "blame the spouse" trend on here, especially because those who use it ONLY have the guts to use it on new and struggling posters, is very troubling. That's about the argument too.
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Originally Posted by Santa
I wasn't attacking Blue Chair or talking down to her. I think 'cursing and throwing pans' as an example of triggers is simplistic and condescending. Who throws pans?
Some (many?) of us spent years as codependents trying to remove all triggers from our addict's environment....a sublimely frustrating, anxiety-producing, fruitless exercise. For someone to say that it may be the nonalcoholic spouse's entire personality that is a trigger - that borders on the blaming and shaming we hear from the addict. I think that is a very false and damaging concept. In fact it's a rage trigger for me. Just my opinion to which I also am entitled.
Some (many?) of us spent years as codependents trying to remove all triggers from our addict's environment....a sublimely frustrating, anxiety-producing, fruitless exercise. For someone to say that it may be the nonalcoholic spouse's entire personality that is a trigger - that borders on the blaming and shaming we hear from the addict. I think that is a very false and damaging concept. In fact it's a rage trigger for me. Just my opinion to which I also am entitled.
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I can imagine that if one believes that they must be careful not to trigger their spouse, they are going to end up sicker than the alcoholic, due to the anxiety of taking that burden on.
I too think that its bunk for an A to say his spouse triggers him to drink. I think triggers are more like hanging around bars, going to drinking parties, walking past a liquor store on the way home, and of course, getting mad at someone else's posts on here-its my fault if I get mad at something you say...I am responsible for how I react to everything in the world.
Alcoholics drink to avoid conflict sometimes. Naturally an argument might make them drink... but its not because it triggered them, it's because they want to drink to escape the situation instead of dealing with it. to lessen their anxiety, or to feel that comforting buzz, which makes it go away for a while. of course, tomorrow, you will have been the trigger....
I feel strongly that the more you worry about your spouse's triggers, the more codependent that makes you. love and support of your spouse is one thing, but worrying yourself sick by thinking you have the power to make them want to drink, or not to, is just more emotional abuse.
I too think that its bunk for an A to say his spouse triggers him to drink. I think triggers are more like hanging around bars, going to drinking parties, walking past a liquor store on the way home, and of course, getting mad at someone else's posts on here-its my fault if I get mad at something you say...I am responsible for how I react to everything in the world.
Alcoholics drink to avoid conflict sometimes. Naturally an argument might make them drink... but its not because it triggered them, it's because they want to drink to escape the situation instead of dealing with it. to lessen their anxiety, or to feel that comforting buzz, which makes it go away for a while. of course, tomorrow, you will have been the trigger....
I feel strongly that the more you worry about your spouse's triggers, the more codependent that makes you. love and support of your spouse is one thing, but worrying yourself sick by thinking you have the power to make them want to drink, or not to, is just more emotional abuse.
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Originally Posted by soverylost
Code, you're right. I need to figure out those three c's and start believing them. the only thing I'm getting out if this is stress. It's enough. I realized this morning that it has to change. I have to change.
I understand what BC was saying. I don't think BC was blaming anyone, just showing that our spouse can trigger when in a bad situation. BC didn't condone it, only explained it. I hadn't thought about things that way and I need to evaluate how i present myself. Either I need to set a boundary and stick to it, which I have problems doing, or i need to be supportive, whatever the situation calls for.
The situation, my situation, changes with me. I control it. I finally get it. It's crazy how i didn't see this before.
I understand what BC was saying. I don't think BC was blaming anyone, just showing that our spouse can trigger when in a bad situation. BC didn't condone it, only explained it. I hadn't thought about things that way and I need to evaluate how i present myself. Either I need to set a boundary and stick to it, which I have problems doing, or i need to be supportive, whatever the situation calls for.
The situation, my situation, changes with me. I control it. I finally get it. It's crazy how i didn't see this before.
Whoop Whoop! Yay!
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Originally Posted by soverylost
So tonight he wasn't even drinking and I'm a horrible person. He's at a hotel that we can't afford. Tells me our family is over. All my fault because he didn't want me to talk to him and I did after four hours of leaving him alone. It's always my fault.
He had been battling addiction and was able to maintain sobriety for a few years. During that time, we had a very happy marriage and he had great relationships with his family. We traveled, talked about our future and enjoyed our lives. He relapsed and everything changed.
All of a sudden, he complained about EVERYTHING and it was always somebody else's fault. He went from telling me how much he loved me, how grateful he was that I had stood by him, how happy he was, etc. to stating how miserable he was and how nobody understood him.
When he was sober, he had a clear mind, a clear conscience and he was at peace. Once he relapsed, the addiction poisoned his heart, his mind and his soul and I became an easy target for his pain.
Right now, you are the target of you husband's pain. Someone once said that when we do bad, we feel bad. He knows he's messing up, but rather than work on himself, it's easier to attack you. Like previous posters said, it's all just quacking.
I'm sorry he is putting you through this and I hope you come back and continue to post. You'll find a lot of support here (and yes, different opinions too!). As they say, take what you need and leave the rest.
Hugs
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Originally Posted by soverylost
Thanks allforcnm for the CRAFT information. I want to look into that more.
Much of the conflict I see on this thread after reading it again today - I feel is based on differences between programs (once again)…. But it has highlighted an important point I believe... we need to add some information to the stickies of this forum regarding CRAFT / Smart. I think it might help make the forum more peaceful if we understand alternate views are actually sometimes supported by valid programs that have proven successful to many individuals.
And newcomers such as yourself can explore varying options... there are actually people who use both alanon and Craft.... by taking what they need and leaving the rest.
I will contact the forum moderator /admin about seeing what we can do to make this happen.
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Originally Posted by soverylost
BlueChair, that is what I am wondering. We were married for what I thought were 10 happy years before he started drinking. Then, after 9 years of drinking (3 of those years heavy drinking), he tells me he wasn't really happy the whole time, I drove him crazy, I stifled him, I didn't support and love him enough, I was too stubborn ... and for all that time he held it inside until he snapped.
Of course, there were other things that happened right around the time of his drinking - he had a surgery that was very serious and is still recovering from 9 years later, and there has been ongoing emotional and verbal abuse issues with his parents.
But, what if I really am his trigger? What if my mannerisms, my actions, my words, trigger him?
Of course, there were other things that happened right around the time of his drinking - he had a surgery that was very serious and is still recovering from 9 years later, and there has been ongoing emotional and verbal abuse issues with his parents.
But, what if I really am his trigger? What if my mannerisms, my actions, my words, trigger him?
Alcoholic: I am immature and can't deal with my feelings. I don't know how to communicate, or deal with difficulty. When things are fine, I'm fine. I blame you for not making my life perfect. If you made everything perfect, I wouldn't have to deal with my feelings--and I wouldn't have to drink.
Family member/friend: Ummm, I am supposed to control everything around us, so you never feel inadequate or have an urge to drink?
Alcoholic: Yes!! Stop making me want to drink!! It's your fault!! If you wouldn't have done XYZ, this wouldn't be happening!! Quack, quack!!
We are not the cause. The inability to interact maturely with people, relationships, LIFE, is what creates urges in some alcoholics.
There's a saying that you can't cover the whole world with rubber so no one steps on a thorn--instead, each of us needs to put on our own shoes.
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Originally Posted by CodeJob
Home - The 20 Minute Guide
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You aren,t that powerful.
Originally Posted by soverylost
Yes I've heard the three c's but I'm having a very hard time accepting them. I haven't been a perfect wife, but I didn't think I was so bad as to cause someone to drink. Yet those are the thoughts and words that echo thru my head. I've heard all the sayings in relation to other people - " no wonder he drinks", "she drove me to drinking", "I'd drink too if i were married to her" and so on. So what if it's actually true? what if I really did, "drive him to drinking?"
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He's one for you. My AH used to tell me that I (and the kids) cause him to drink. That he didn't want to come home to us so the only alternative was the pub.
To back it up he used to report that his psychiatrist was the one that came up with the theory....that indeed, I was the cause.
Turns out he has borderline personality disorder....and deals with ANY feeling, thought or emotion with drink. I caused feeling, thought and emotion so ergo....I 'made' him drink. But the psych explained that this is AH's mechanism to deal with anything, and anyone....and if it wasn't me that 'made' him drink, it would be his boss, his dad, his friend, the tram diver, the person serving him at the checkout.
He responds to stuff by drinking...maybe your SH also responds to stuff by drinking. Not your fault.
To back it up he used to report that his psychiatrist was the one that came up with the theory....that indeed, I was the cause.
Turns out he has borderline personality disorder....and deals with ANY feeling, thought or emotion with drink. I caused feeling, thought and emotion so ergo....I 'made' him drink. But the psych explained that this is AH's mechanism to deal with anything, and anyone....and if it wasn't me that 'made' him drink, it would be his boss, his dad, his friend, the tram diver, the person serving him at the checkout.
He responds to stuff by drinking...maybe your SH also responds to stuff by drinking. Not your fault.
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Wow. This is an interesting thread. I feel I have to weigh in. Ultimately yes. It is the addicts decision to turn to their DOC and use or not. But to think loved ones can not influence that at all is quite short sighted. Triggers come in all shapes and sizes. Stress at work. Bad marriage. Whatever. If a "loved one" knows something is a trigger and continues to do what it is that has been identified as a trigger, be it the silent treatment, manipulation or whatever, then yes. They are contributing. No, it is not a gun to the head, but pretty freaking close. Addiction is a disease. If your loved on has the flu, would you intentionally open the windows on a cold rainy day? If they have lung cancer would you blow smoke in their face? No. Of course not. So if your loved one is an addict and you "push their buttons" what's the difference between that and opening the window on that cold rainy day? Loved ones have more responsibility then some think. Take a couple of children entering their school years. One receives constant verbal praise. She has a foundation for success. The other told she will amount to nothing. She is dumb. She will not succeed. Why bother trying. Think she will get straight A's. I highly doubt it. Should we simply tell that girl to suck it up and ignore daddies words? Just simply tell her to choose to get an A? Think that will work for her? Let's not be so quick to wash our hands of 100% responsibility. While it is true only the addict can choose to pick up or not. His supposed love ones can surely influence him more than most people think.
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I think a spouse can be a positive or negative influence on anything you do in life. That includes sobriety. Still, the decision not to get stoned every time something goes wrong lies completely on me. There is no getting around that. Nobody can MAKE you use and no one can MAKE you not use except yourself.
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Originally Posted by mkintexas
Wow. This is an interesting thread. I feel I have to weigh in. Ultimately yes. It is the addicts decision to turn to their DOC and use or not. But to think loved ones can not influence that at all is quite short sighted. Triggers come in all shapes and sizes. Stress at work. Bad marriage. Whatever. If a "loved one" knows something is a trigger and continues to do what it is that has been identified as a trigger, be it the silent treatment, manipulation or whatever, then yes. They are contributing. No, it is not a gun to the head, but pretty freaking close. Addiction is a disease. If your loved on has the flu, would you intentionally open the windows on a cold rainy day? If they have lung cancer would you blow smoke in their face? No. Of course not. So if your loved one is an addict and you "push their buttons" what's the difference between that and opening the window on that cold rainy day? Loved ones have more responsibility then some think. Take a couple of children entering their school years. One receives constant verbal praise. She has a foundation for success. The other told she will amount to nothing. She is dumb. She will not succeed. Why bother trying. Think she will get straight A's. I highly doubt it. Should we simply tell that girl to suck it up and ignore daddies words? Just simply tell her to choose to get an A? Think that will work for her? Let's not be so quick to wash our hands of 100% responsibility. While it is true only the addict can choose to pick up or not. His supposed love ones can surely influence him more than most people think.
No one wants to wash their hands of responsibility, but as codependents our instinct is to take on all of the responsibility for someone else's choices, and that's what the Three C's are all about. We repeat them to ourselves so that we remember to stay on our side of the street and leave the addict to the consequences of his or her own choices.
I understand triggers as well as any addict, so I work to make better choices for how I will respond to those triggers. That is what recovery is to me. What I must not do is blame the person who triggered me for the bad choices I make based on the trigger -- we never get better while we continue to blame others instead of taking responsibility for ourselves.
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I am not a babysitter. I did EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING possible to support and encourage my XAH. He still drank, he still drank and was a mean drunk. He still hurt our children emoationally, me as well. So....yes, you can encourage someone, but you cannot control if they pick up or not. Everyone in life has to decide how to handle stress in life as it's never ever going to go away. Some stress eat, some stress drink, some shut down, etc. It's taking the time and effort to learn how to cope and deal with life as the key to recovery, for anyone. It's up to each individual how much they are willing to put into THEIR OWN recovery.
XXX
XXX
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Originally Posted by mkintexas
Wow. This is an interesting thread. I feel I have to weigh in. Ultimately yes. It is the addicts decision to turn to their DOC and use or not. But to think loved ones can not influence that at all is quite short sighted. Triggers come in all shapes and sizes. Stress at work. Bad marriage. Whatever. If a "loved one" knows something is a trigger and continues to do what it is that has been identified as a trigger, be it the silent treatment, manipulation or whatever, then yes. They are contributing. No, it is not a gun to the head, but pretty freaking close. Addiction is a disease. If your loved on has the flu, would you intentionally open the windows on a cold rainy day? If they have lung cancer would you blow smoke in their face? No. Of course not. So if your loved one is an addict and you "push their buttons" what's the difference between that and opening the window on that cold rainy day? Loved ones have more responsibility then some think. Take a couple of children entering their school years. One receives constant verbal praise. She has a foundation for success. The other told she will amount to nothing. She is dumb. She will not succeed. Why bother trying. Think she will get straight A's. I highly doubt it. Should we simply tell that girl to suck it up and ignore daddies words? Just simply tell her to choose to get an A? Think that will work for her? Let's not be so quick to wash our hands of 100% responsibility. While it is true only the addict can choose to pick up or not. His supposed love ones can surely influence him more than most people think.
If we understand addiction and alcoholism then we also should know someone under the influence, detoxing, coming down also has changes taking place in their brain. Long term users may even have brain damage that could be permanent, or could take months for them to recover from. They may also have other issues like anxiety, sleep deprivation which are REAL problems to cope with. They are not up to a 100% mental capacity, and then we purposely trigger them, lack knowledge on their illness and make things worse. Much like opening up the window for the person with pneumonia. Oh its not my fault I cant control it, I didn’t cause it, I cant cure it. Did their pneumonia get worse? Duh ,You contributed to it.
In the same way family can cause harm, we can also HELP by using your knowledge of addiction, and our influence based on the relationship. This is what CRAFT has taught me, along with the understanding Im not codependent because I choose to think this way. This is normal, responsible, caring behavior UNLESS I take it too far and become obsessed, crazy, or fully neglect my own self-care or that of my kids (if I had any). Not everyone is codependent and if you take normal people and apply methods to manage codependency then you can end up emotionally unhealthy and begin on a path of behaviors that destroy relationships.
All my humble opinion of course.
And now all my haters can come out and say boo hoo, but Im tired of being bullied so have at it ! My opinions are just as valid and this is an open forum for family.
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Originally Posted by BlueChair
Thank you MK for your post ! I agree with what your saying and I think your example is excellent. One point you mentioned was “if we know” IF we know our significant other is triggered by certain things, behaviors or actions which are in our control, and we knowingly continue these patterns I think we need to be held accountable for our actions. This is where I think the Three C’s lead are misleading , and are actually an excuse for family members to take responsibility off themselves. Oh I will just quote these words and I carry no burden, the BLAME is all on the addicted person because they cant make good choices or cope well.
If we understand addiction and alcoholism then we also should know someone under the influence, detoxing, coming down also has changes taking place in their brain. Long term users may even have brain damage that could be permanent, or could take months for them to recover from. They may also have other issues like anxiety, sleep deprivation which are REAL problems to cope with. They are not up to a 100% mental capacity, and then we purposely trigger them, lack knowledge on their illness and make things worse. Much like opening up the window for the person with pneumonia. Oh its not my fault I cant control it, I didn’t cause it, I cant cure it. Did their pneumonia get worse? Duh ,You contributed to it.
In the same way family can cause harm, we can also HELP by using your knowledge of addiction, and our influence based on the relationship. This is what CRAFT has taught me, along with the understanding Im not codependent because I choose to think this way. This is normal, responsible, caring behavior UNLESS I take it too far and become obsessed, crazy, or fully neglect my own self-care or that of my kids (if I had any). Not everyone is codependent and if you take normal people and apply methods to manage codependency then you can end up emotionally unhealthy and begin on a path of behaviors that destroy relationships.
All my humble opinion of course.
And now all my haters can come out and say boo hoo, but Im tired of being bullied so have at it ! My opinions are just as valid and this is an open forum for family.
If we understand addiction and alcoholism then we also should know someone under the influence, detoxing, coming down also has changes taking place in their brain. Long term users may even have brain damage that could be permanent, or could take months for them to recover from. They may also have other issues like anxiety, sleep deprivation which are REAL problems to cope with. They are not up to a 100% mental capacity, and then we purposely trigger them, lack knowledge on their illness and make things worse. Much like opening up the window for the person with pneumonia. Oh its not my fault I cant control it, I didn’t cause it, I cant cure it. Did their pneumonia get worse? Duh ,You contributed to it.
In the same way family can cause harm, we can also HELP by using your knowledge of addiction, and our influence based on the relationship. This is what CRAFT has taught me, along with the understanding Im not codependent because I choose to think this way. This is normal, responsible, caring behavior UNLESS I take it too far and become obsessed, crazy, or fully neglect my own self-care or that of my kids (if I had any). Not everyone is codependent and if you take normal people and apply methods to manage codependency then you can end up emotionally unhealthy and begin on a path of behaviors that destroy relationships.
All my humble opinion of course.
And now all my haters can come out and say boo hoo, but Im tired of being bullied so have at it ! My opinions are just as valid and this is an open forum for family.
I just know from my personal experience the 3Cs have helped me stop trying to control everything around me, not just my BF. I do think that we as partners or parents or friends of addicts have a responsibility to treat others with respect, not only for them, but for our own peace of mind and self-esteem.
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