I'm gonna find someone someday who might actually treat me well
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OH! NO!---Hammer, I just realized that I answered the wrong question. To answer your real question--- at the 6month mark you should have seen enough forward progress to justify continued hopeful and watchful waiting. That has not happened (according to your writings).
dandylion
dandylion
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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If only it were so black and white that I could tell you that 94 days and 3 hours is the perfect amount of time to give for a mentally ill A to "stabilize"....but it is not that easy and realistically she probably won't "stabilize" in a manner that you are hoping for.
My XA has also been diagnosed bipolar and is subject to mania as well as extreme alcoholic binges and I often went down the path you are now on with him over a period of 4 years and would ask myself the same questions about how much time to give... how much pain and anguish to subject myself to.
The line I drew in the sand for him was one year. He had to have one full year in active, AUTHENTIC recovery (verifiable) and I would go out on a date with him (have very little contact other than texts and emails when my blocks expire).
He cannot make it one year. He continues to relapse. His condition is chronic and progressive and for the most part he is untreated because he WANTS to drink. He wants to gamble.
He has been in Las Vegas for the past 5 months drinking and gambling but recently broke his ankle because security jumped him at Hard Rock out there (he was most likely blacked out and obnoxious) so now he is flying home to his Mama and going into rehab for the 12th time.
And so it goes... on and on and on.
And for you my friend the prognosis is equally risky that change ... real change, "stability" as you and I understand it will never really take place on a long term permanent basis for your wife.
The longest my XA made it was about 10 months and that was through a dedicated program of the 12 steps of AA... it worked as long as he worked it.
And even if you were to come up with some timeline that you felt was reasonable the risk of relapse is like a ticking time bomb... always there... always calling like a siren from the sea of destruction.
Getting a lot of space between mom and kids is really the best advice I could offer... I know I would have done so much better in my life had my mother patterned healthy responses to my fathers cruel and abusive alcoholic behaviors instead of choosing to keep us in a dangerous and unhealthy emotional environment during our formative years.
All... repeat all of my 5 siblings and myself are screwed up big time. Some of us have spent years in counseling and on the surface are "successful" while still being very shattered from choosing life partners poorly or becoming addicts ourselves.
If your kids are not in therapy I recommend it as well as alanon.
Good luck in finding your own way out and protecting those kids....
My XA has also been diagnosed bipolar and is subject to mania as well as extreme alcoholic binges and I often went down the path you are now on with him over a period of 4 years and would ask myself the same questions about how much time to give... how much pain and anguish to subject myself to.
The line I drew in the sand for him was one year. He had to have one full year in active, AUTHENTIC recovery (verifiable) and I would go out on a date with him (have very little contact other than texts and emails when my blocks expire).
He cannot make it one year. He continues to relapse. His condition is chronic and progressive and for the most part he is untreated because he WANTS to drink. He wants to gamble.
He has been in Las Vegas for the past 5 months drinking and gambling but recently broke his ankle because security jumped him at Hard Rock out there (he was most likely blacked out and obnoxious) so now he is flying home to his Mama and going into rehab for the 12th time.
And so it goes... on and on and on.
And for you my friend the prognosis is equally risky that change ... real change, "stability" as you and I understand it will never really take place on a long term permanent basis for your wife.
The longest my XA made it was about 10 months and that was through a dedicated program of the 12 steps of AA... it worked as long as he worked it.
And even if you were to come up with some timeline that you felt was reasonable the risk of relapse is like a ticking time bomb... always there... always calling like a siren from the sea of destruction.
Getting a lot of space between mom and kids is really the best advice I could offer... I know I would have done so much better in my life had my mother patterned healthy responses to my fathers cruel and abusive alcoholic behaviors instead of choosing to keep us in a dangerous and unhealthy emotional environment during our formative years.
All... repeat all of my 5 siblings and myself are screwed up big time. Some of us have spent years in counseling and on the surface are "successful" while still being very shattered from choosing life partners poorly or becoming addicts ourselves.
If your kids are not in therapy I recommend it as well as alanon.
Good luck in finding your own way out and protecting those kids....
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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I've followed this post and all the insight it has given me. I have attended al anon for over 4 years and I see members struggle with alcoholics with many years sobriety and to be honest hearing their stories brings me out of my own denial. It just seems that unfortunately there are few happy ever after stories. Like you Hammer I like knowing exact outcomes. My guess if you carried out an audit for long term healthy recovery for alcoholics it would be quite depressing but that's just my opinion. As Tuffgirl and others said I am also your daughter all grown up. To an outsider I look all together good career, nice home, sociable with loads of friends but the legacy of growing up with an alcoholic father has damaged me greatly and all the al anon/teen does not take that away. I work hard to piece together my shattered sense of self that's how having an alcoholic parent affects a child. My father is 30 years sober.........my mother is not leading the life today she hoped for; my dad struggles with depression; sad to watch 2 people still not got their act together and there has been no active alcoholism for so long. As I've been told on this forum by wiser people accept them as they are, if you cannot you need to admit that powerlessness, that's the hard part. I've recently ended my relationship which is not an easy decision....I'm the type of person who would take on the world but have eventually admitted I'm done with all the crazy making. I don't want the life my mother has led. Sorry if I cause any offense with anything I've said. Good luck in working things out.
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Originally Posted by dandylion 
OH! NO!---Hammer, I just realized that I answered the wrong question. To answer your real question--- at the 6month mark you should have seen enough forward progress to justify continued hopeful and watchful waiting. That has not happened (according to your writings).
dandylion
dandylion
6 month would have been June 8, 2013.
Has gone pretty much "Dry Drunk" I think the general slang description is.
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I keep having these images of a guy in a room with his kids behind him. There is a fire in front of him surrounding his wife. He's using a squirt gun to try to put out the fire. Meanwhile, smoke kills more people than the actual fire, and the kids are really getting their lungs toxic at this point.
And I keep thinking: there are more ways than a squirt gun to work on that fire. Loyalty is nice, and sticking to a project goal is honorable, but really he's not the only one who can work on a fire, and this particular setup is not very balanced for those kids. He can remove those kids and get his wife somewhere else, and let the professionals deal with the fire. He doesn't have to choose to try to save his wife's life at the expense of his kids. Just because he's between them and the fire doesn't mean they aren't breathing toxic smoke.
But first, he has to give up the squirt gun model, and get everyone out of the room and to their respective, safe destinations.
CLMI
And I keep thinking: there are more ways than a squirt gun to work on that fire. Loyalty is nice, and sticking to a project goal is honorable, but really he's not the only one who can work on a fire, and this particular setup is not very balanced for those kids. He can remove those kids and get his wife somewhere else, and let the professionals deal with the fire. He doesn't have to choose to try to save his wife's life at the expense of his kids. Just because he's between them and the fire doesn't mean they aren't breathing toxic smoke.
But first, he has to give up the squirt gun model, and get everyone out of the room and to their respective, safe destinations.
CLMI
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
Hammer, I agree with folks here that you are a most tenacious, committed person, and will carry the wounded and dead off the battlefield. That is honorable and admirable, and most of us wish we had a spouse/partner like that. Your question boils down to: I've carried her off the battlefield; can her wounds be healed, or is it irreparable?
A lot of your questions seem to have to do with psychiatric issues more than alcoholism. Maybe that is the path to aggressively pursue with your wife for the next few months. The "normal" trajectory (if there is such a thing) for recovery from alcoholism for someone staying sober and truly working a program just doesn't fit here.
She seems to be able to sort of manage the alcoholism, but when she does, a veil pulls back and all the rest of emotional/psychiatric issues are visible. I'd say you need to talk with a really good psychiatrist, not a therapist, who specializes in addiction. A psychiatrist can make the diagnosis, identify the medication needed, and give you a clear prognosis of the likely path of her mental illness.
Sometimes alcoholism can present as having an underlying mental illness as well, but with sobriety, the mental illness resolves and shows itself to be a function of the alcoholism.
From what you've said, it seems that Mrs. Hammer may be the opposite - - someone with mental illness that plays out in dysfunctional behavior including eating disorders, cutting, and alcoholism. If that is so, you have to treat the root illness in order to get the symptoms under control.
This may be why it is confusing as to whether it is time to leave or not.
And, as the child of an abusive alcoholic father and a mother who was certainly abused and may have been psychotic as well, no matter what the root cause of Mrs. Hammer's behavior, what she does is what she does and that is what your children have to live with. Each day of her behavior, no matter what the cause, or what the prognosis, is "real time" for them.
Perhaps you could think about turning the situation upside down. Right now, you and your children are waiting for Mrs. Hammer to recover and behave normally. And there is frustration, danger, and potential damage happening as you all wait. Mrs. Hammer has the power and you are all observers, trapped on the bus as she chooses to careen around mountain roads next to deadly cliffs. Your kids saying "Don't let mama take me into the woods" is a true cry for rescue.
If you separate from Mrs. Hammer and require her to deal with the consequences of her own behavior, your kids will be safe and protected, and she will have the consequences of the choices she makes. That might be enough for her to choose psychiatric help and medication.
The best to you and your kids; this is truly a difficult tragic situation. I know your kids are #1. It might help to focus more on what that means for them: the difference it would make if, as on your three week vacation, they lived with just one sane parent rather than the chaos of a scary mom. If your choice is an ambulance that just takes one, your wife, or an ambulance that takes 3, your children, which will you drive? I hope that is not posing the question too bluntly. I am one of your biggest supporters.
The ambiguity plays on the heart strings, especially for someone as honorable and loyal as you are.
ShootingStar1
A lot of your questions seem to have to do with psychiatric issues more than alcoholism. Maybe that is the path to aggressively pursue with your wife for the next few months. The "normal" trajectory (if there is such a thing) for recovery from alcoholism for someone staying sober and truly working a program just doesn't fit here.
She seems to be able to sort of manage the alcoholism, but when she does, a veil pulls back and all the rest of emotional/psychiatric issues are visible. I'd say you need to talk with a really good psychiatrist, not a therapist, who specializes in addiction. A psychiatrist can make the diagnosis, identify the medication needed, and give you a clear prognosis of the likely path of her mental illness.
Sometimes alcoholism can present as having an underlying mental illness as well, but with sobriety, the mental illness resolves and shows itself to be a function of the alcoholism.
From what you've said, it seems that Mrs. Hammer may be the opposite - - someone with mental illness that plays out in dysfunctional behavior including eating disorders, cutting, and alcoholism. If that is so, you have to treat the root illness in order to get the symptoms under control.
This may be why it is confusing as to whether it is time to leave or not.
And, as the child of an abusive alcoholic father and a mother who was certainly abused and may have been psychotic as well, no matter what the root cause of Mrs. Hammer's behavior, what she does is what she does and that is what your children have to live with. Each day of her behavior, no matter what the cause, or what the prognosis, is "real time" for them.
Perhaps you could think about turning the situation upside down. Right now, you and your children are waiting for Mrs. Hammer to recover and behave normally. And there is frustration, danger, and potential damage happening as you all wait. Mrs. Hammer has the power and you are all observers, trapped on the bus as she chooses to careen around mountain roads next to deadly cliffs. Your kids saying "Don't let mama take me into the woods" is a true cry for rescue.
If you separate from Mrs. Hammer and require her to deal with the consequences of her own behavior, your kids will be safe and protected, and she will have the consequences of the choices she makes. That might be enough for her to choose psychiatric help and medication.
The best to you and your kids; this is truly a difficult tragic situation. I know your kids are #1. It might help to focus more on what that means for them: the difference it would make if, as on your three week vacation, they lived with just one sane parent rather than the chaos of a scary mom. If your choice is an ambulance that just takes one, your wife, or an ambulance that takes 3, your children, which will you drive? I hope that is not posing the question too bluntly. I am one of your biggest supporters.
The ambiguity plays on the heart strings, especially for someone as honorable and loyal as you are.
ShootingStar1
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Originally Posted by dandylion
Dear Hammer, I can hear you saying that the time has come to end the way you are living---including the whole family. Not to stop caring---but to let go. And, I agree with you (assuming that I am correct)---why do I agree?? Because I can hear your heart screaming it as I read between the lines. I hear that you have exhausted all you can do--all you can tolerate. I believe the children see it.
Hammer, you sound like the most tenacious of the tenacious. Tenacious people don't generally let go until the only remaining option IS to let go.
I am telling you exactly what I think---since you are asking. I think you deserve my h onest answer.
If I am correct, please let us know how we can help you.
Lord knows, this is not easy. I have had to do the same thing.
dandylion
Hammer, you sound like the most tenacious of the tenacious. Tenacious people don't generally let go until the only remaining option IS to let go.
I am telling you exactly what I think---since you are asking. I think you deserve my h onest answer.
If I am correct, please let us know how we can help you.
Lord knows, this is not easy. I have had to do the same thing.
dandylion
Thank you.
I guess to put it in more current jargon, from my point of view she has "gone zombie."
I can see that by matching up the On The Beam / Off The Beam lists against observed behaviors. Pretty much very clear bright-line indicators.
I know my mission statement Very Clearly.
#1. Protect the kids.
#2. Protect me, as I protect the kids.
Back during (MUCH) saner days, back when she was pregnant with the first kid -- she had cautioned that she had been in T for years, and would likely be most of her life. Both of her AA friends who had started with her had relapsed, and we sort of had "a plan" for if she were to ever relapse herself. She was very dedicated and sincere AA back then.
For part, I had watched for it for years. Rather exhausting in that regard. I figured relapse would hit like a tidal wave. But you never get the war you prepared for.
Instead it was slow, quiet, and well hidden. By the time the Eating Disorder settled in she was refusing all T, help, and lying to cover it. Our family life was spinning crazier and crazier, and I got back in Alanon and started tightening the screws back down. Finally collapsed with her going in rehab, and like I say, she has come back rather whacked.
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Originally Posted by catlovermi
I keep having these images of a guy in a room with his kids behind him. There is a fire in front of him surrounding his wife. He's using a squirt gun to try to put out the fire. Meanwhile, smoke kills more people than the actual fire, and the kids are really getting their lungs toxic at this point.
And I keep thinking: there are more ways than a squirt gun to work on that fire. Loyalty is nice, and sticking to a project goal is honorable, but really he's not the only one who can work on a fire, and this particular setup is not very balanced for those kids. He can remove those kids and get his wife somewhere else, and let the professionals deal with the fire. He doesn't have to choose to try to save his wife's life at the expense of his kids. Just because he's between them and the fire doesn't mean they aren't breathing toxic smoke.
But first, he has to give up the squirt gun model, and get everyone out of the room and to their respective, safe destinations.
CLMI
And I keep thinking: there are more ways than a squirt gun to work on that fire. Loyalty is nice, and sticking to a project goal is honorable, but really he's not the only one who can work on a fire, and this particular setup is not very balanced for those kids. He can remove those kids and get his wife somewhere else, and let the professionals deal with the fire. He doesn't have to choose to try to save his wife's life at the expense of his kids. Just because he's between them and the fire doesn't mean they aren't breathing toxic smoke.
But first, he has to give up the squirt gun model, and get everyone out of the room and to their respective, safe destinations.
CLMI
True that, I suppose.
Used to be on the fire department before playing Army.
The full scenario is I am clear it is not my role or goal to fix, save, or repair Mrs. Hammer in anyway. That is all God/HP sector of fire, and I am glad to stay clear of it.
More like the house is on fire, so I grab the kids, I pull the lever and Halon gas fills the room.
Anyone left in the building is killed by asphyxiation.
Fire goes out, but anyone left in dies.
The suicide rate from this condition is over 10%. We have went through that all a few times, as well.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Hammer, you will have to let go of the guilt. guilt is for when you have done something wrong. There is no wrong in saving your self and your children. At a certain point, we have to turn control back over to the Universe. The control is not for us to have, anyway.
dandylion
By the way, the Universe provides psychiatrists for assistance in these matters. /they are more equipped than you.
dandylion
By the way, the Universe provides psychiatrists for assistance in these matters. /they are more equipped than you.
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,754
So it's change or resignation.
Your daughter tells you that Mrs. Hammer hates you. You are telling her that is okay. She is learning that it is okay to stay with the wounded because healing is not possible. Movement forward is possible.
No change is permanant, but trying something different is.
It sounds like you are in a box, that the answers circle around inside the box but fear or responsibilty shuts all exits.
I have been in that box, and sometimes I still enter, it's no fun in there.
You are a good person. Maybe someting other than Al anon is needed for you.
There is something there that has you there stuck and waiting, for something that may never happen.
These are just thoughts, I mean no disrespect and I am not preaching, I want us all to be happy. You deserve to be happy.
much love to you and yours Katie
Your daughter tells you that Mrs. Hammer hates you. You are telling her that is okay. She is learning that it is okay to stay with the wounded because healing is not possible. Movement forward is possible.
No change is permanant, but trying something different is.
It sounds like you are in a box, that the answers circle around inside the box but fear or responsibilty shuts all exits.
I have been in that box, and sometimes I still enter, it's no fun in there.
You are a good person. Maybe someting other than Al anon is needed for you.
There is something there that has you there stuck and waiting, for something that may never happen.
These are just thoughts, I mean no disrespect and I am not preaching, I want us all to be happy. You deserve to be happy.
much love to you and yours Katie
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 2,884
Hammer, I understand your point of view. I'm a former Marine and had pretty much the same attitude. No retreat and no surrender and all that.
I even used the zombie metaphor.
My moment of clarity came when I realized I was laying in bed thinking about how good it will be to be dead. Then I won't have to deal with this anymore. i even used to lay in bed and pretend I was dead. I called it swimming in the dead pool.
It was at that point I realized a couple of things. I can't do anything to make her better and this whole thing was killing me.
I had to accept reality and save myself. At that point my kids already had families of their own so that made it easier.
As much as it is hard to admit sometimes you just can't win.
Your friend,
I even used the zombie metaphor.
My moment of clarity came when I realized I was laying in bed thinking about how good it will be to be dead. Then I won't have to deal with this anymore. i even used to lay in bed and pretend I was dead. I called it swimming in the dead pool.
It was at that point I realized a couple of things. I can't do anything to make her better and this whole thing was killing me.
I had to accept reality and save myself. At that point my kids already had families of their own so that made it easier.
As much as it is hard to admit sometimes you just can't win.
Your friend,
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Rochester, ny
Posts: 405
Originally Posted by Hammer
TOTALLY Agree.
And a spot on home-run diagnosis, btw.
However, the very apparent part is that the Eating Disorder USED to keep the Borderline in Check.
She has just had all her coping tools (addictions) taken away, and is now free-basing on the Emotional Dysregulation.
Were I a shrink-for-a-day, I would probably label it as BPD Traits, as opposed to full Borderline, but you understand what I am saying.
Personal Ethics.
Will not pull the trigger on a wounded troop/buddy.
Only quick way towards that is if the kids are at risk.
It has kept it in line in the past.
But then she drifted to cutting. My T helped shut that down, and then the Eating Disorder.
And a spot on home-run diagnosis, btw.
However, the very apparent part is that the Eating Disorder USED to keep the Borderline in Check.
She has just had all her coping tools (addictions) taken away, and is now free-basing on the Emotional Dysregulation.
Were I a shrink-for-a-day, I would probably label it as BPD Traits, as opposed to full Borderline, but you understand what I am saying.
Personal Ethics.
Will not pull the trigger on a wounded troop/buddy.
Only quick way towards that is if the kids are at risk.
It has kept it in line in the past.
But then she drifted to cutting. My T helped shut that down, and then the Eating Disorder.
Boy I sure hope your kids will be able to find someone later in life who won't pull the plug on them. Cuz they're wounded, buddy.
From another one here who knows.
(My mother almost never drank at all. I was the tool she used to "emotionally regulate" I'm now 55 and its a painful life, man. Every aspect of life and of who I am was and is negatively affected. Still. )
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Originally Posted by ShootingStar1
Hammer, I agree with folks here that you are a most tenacious, committed person, and will carry the wounded and dead off the battlefield. That is honorable and admirable, and most of us wish we had a spouse/partner like that. Your question boils down to: I've carried her off the battlefield; can her wounds be healed, or is it irreparable?
Now it is up to Her T, Her Sponsor, and Her Program. And looking at those "Her" pronouns, I know NONE of that is Mr. Hammer's (me). I am underwhelmed with every/all of them, but I also know that God chooses the weak to show His strength. But not MY problem.
A lot of your questions seem to have to do with psychiatric issues more than alcoholism. Maybe that is the path to aggressively pursue with your wife for the next few months. The "normal" trajectory (if there is such a thing) for recovery from alcoholism for someone staying sober and truly working a program just doesn't fit here.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...er-thread.html
Actually it does hit AA strangely Very Well. Sometime read "How it works." Chapter 5, AA Big Book. Some outstanding stuff. Will post some of that later.
She seems to be able to sort of manage the alcoholism, but when she does, a veil pulls back and all the rest of emotional/psychiatric issues are visible. I'd say you need to talk with a really good psychiatrist, not a therapist, who specializes in addiction. A psychiatrist can make the diagnosis, identify the medication needed, and give you a clear prognosis of the likely path of her mental illness.
Sometimes alcoholism can present as having an underlying mental illness as well, but with sobriety, the mental illness resolves and shows itself to be a function of the alcoholism.
From what you've said, it seems that Mrs. Hammer may be the opposite - - someone with mental illness that plays out in dysfunctional behavior including eating disorders, cutting, and alcoholism. If that is so, you have to treat the root illness in order to get the symptoms under control.
Sometimes alcoholism can present as having an underlying mental illness as well, but with sobriety, the mental illness resolves and shows itself to be a function of the alcoholism.
From what you've said, it seems that Mrs. Hammer may be the opposite - - someone with mental illness that plays out in dysfunctional behavior including eating disorders, cutting, and alcoholism. If that is so, you have to treat the root illness in order to get the symptoms under control.
This may be why it is confusing as to whether it is time to leave or not.
Like I mentioned above, it is not a reversible process.
I am not unhappy with Flo's 1 year/365 day number. I will know which way the tree will fall before then.
It is an irreversible process/decision. Once the truck pulls out -- those left behind . . . Mrs. Hammer, as it were . . . is left behind.
THAT is why I want to be bright-line, date-certain, that she has truly gone zombie. In that it is the only choice, anyway.
And, as the child of an abusive alcoholic father and a mother who was certainly abused and may have been psychotic as well, no matter what the root cause of Mrs. Hammer's behavior, what she does is what she does and that is what your children have to live with. Each day of her behavior, no matter what the cause, or what the prognosis, is "real time" for them.
Perhaps you could think about turning the situation upside down. Right now, you and your children are waiting for Mrs. Hammer to recover and behave normally. And there is frustration, danger, and potential damage happening as you all wait. Mrs. Hammer has the power and you are all observers, trapped on the bus as she chooses to careen around mountain roads next to deadly cliffs. Your kids saying "Don't let mama take me into the woods" is a true cry for rescue.
For a while, before and right after I got my daughter into alateen, she would text me "weather reports." Just how crazy Mrs. Hammer seemed at the time, so my daughter could know that I would swoop in, if needed. Other than the massive blow out from taking my daughter to alateen, I have only had to swoop in once during the time since rehab. That was last month, and Mrs. Hammer was going nutty on our daughter.
If you separate from Mrs. Hammer and require her to deal with the consequences of her own behavior, your kids will be safe and protected, and she will have the consequences of the choices she makes. That might be enough for her to choose psychiatric help and medication.
The best to you and your kids; this is truly a difficult tragic situation. I know your kids are #1. It might help to focus more on what that means for them: the difference it would make if, as on your three week vacation, they lived with just one sane parent rather than the chaos of a scary mom. If your choice is an ambulance that just takes one, your wife, or an ambulance that takes 3, your children, which will you drive? I hope that is not posing the question too bluntly. I am one of your biggest supporters.
The best to you and your kids; this is truly a difficult tragic situation. I know your kids are #1. It might help to focus more on what that means for them: the difference it would make if, as on your three week vacation, they lived with just one sane parent rather than the chaos of a scary mom. If your choice is an ambulance that just takes one, your wife, or an ambulance that takes 3, your children, which will you drive? I hope that is not posing the question too bluntly. I am one of your biggest supporters.
The ambiguity plays on the heart strings, especially for someone as honorable and loyal as you are.
ShootingStAar1
ShootingStAar1
The Kids = #1 keep the path marked pretty well. And with some Step 11 Prayers and Guidance, The Alanon/HP/God model makes that real clear in my mind.
Walk by faith, not by sight.
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For your children there is an excellent book which would likely be of great help to them.
The title is "Surviving the Borderline Parent" by Kimberlee Roth. It is a slim volume, very easy to read, and offers concrete suggestions about how to deal with specific behaviors and situations involving the borderline mother or father. And perhaps it will be of help to you, as well.
My therapist told me that when he treats a borderline, he has to call another therapist to process his thinking and emotions because he finds it so difficult to work with persons with this disorder. He said something to the effect that persons with this mental illness affect other individuals in their deep unconscious and it leaves those individuals extremely unsettled.
Your comment about the "don't let mom take us to the woods" phrase your children use: it is profoundly significant. Borderline mothers are often in the news because they did just that. But more often it seems they pick the water to kill their kids.
I'm glad your children survived their early childhood. But emotionally and psychologically now the mountain that stands before them is to survive their adult life, free of the influence and poison of a very sick and very powerful mother.
I hope you'll take a look at the book. And there is another book titled "Understanding the Borderline Mother" which is also very good, but it's quite thick and not as accessible for them. But in that book there is a section on the kinds of husbands borderline women choose. You might take a look. You might see your page.
I nearly had a serious relationship with a man whose ex had BPD. So I read up on what that was about. And talked with my therapist. They had 4 children together. The oldest son had stopped talking to the mother altogether and had been suicidal at age 14. The next oldest never smiled. All the children suffered.
There is help for you. This is too big for you.
The title is "Surviving the Borderline Parent" by Kimberlee Roth. It is a slim volume, very easy to read, and offers concrete suggestions about how to deal with specific behaviors and situations involving the borderline mother or father. And perhaps it will be of help to you, as well.
My therapist told me that when he treats a borderline, he has to call another therapist to process his thinking and emotions because he finds it so difficult to work with persons with this disorder. He said something to the effect that persons with this mental illness affect other individuals in their deep unconscious and it leaves those individuals extremely unsettled.
Your comment about the "don't let mom take us to the woods" phrase your children use: it is profoundly significant. Borderline mothers are often in the news because they did just that. But more often it seems they pick the water to kill their kids.
I'm glad your children survived their early childhood. But emotionally and psychologically now the mountain that stands before them is to survive their adult life, free of the influence and poison of a very sick and very powerful mother.
I hope you'll take a look at the book. And there is another book titled "Understanding the Borderline Mother" which is also very good, but it's quite thick and not as accessible for them. But in that book there is a section on the kinds of husbands borderline women choose. You might take a look. You might see your page.
I nearly had a serious relationship with a man whose ex had BPD. So I read up on what that was about. And talked with my therapist. They had 4 children together. The oldest son had stopped talking to the mother altogether and had been suicidal at age 14. The next oldest never smiled. All the children suffered.
There is help for you. This is too big for you.
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Hammer, One thing I realized in the course of my own march through hell is that sometime 15 to 20 years ago my wife crawled into a vodka bottle and drowned. The people who occupy her body are not my wife anymore. They may have some of her memories and mannerisms but they are still not her. I use they also because she seems to have several distinct personalities, all of them distasteful.
Your friend,
Your friend,
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So Mrs. Hammer is very resistant to be diagnosed with a mental illness, and you fully believe she has one.
It seems that if mental illness is also part of the mix with alcohol, there will be no neat and tidy timeline for progress in recovery as the underlying condition has not been addressed, but simply unveiled, or unleashed if alcohol was subduing it.
There could also be PAWS as part of the mix too. I have read on the alcoholism forums that that can take a couple years for the fog to lift.
But assuming there is truly an underlying mental illness, you can't expect much progress until that is addressed.
I don't believe people can usually *see* their own mental illness. They usually have to be told by others, perhaps you and your children, in a family sit-down.
You may have already been down that road with staunch resistance, I don't know. Frightening one's own children on a regular basis should be a wake-up call, but mental illness is stubborn to see itself.
Pound it home?
If you were in the military, seems to me they believe in the power of repetition to drive a thought home. That line about her being deathly afraid of diagnosis...maybe diagnosis is not the death sentence, but the path to clarity, in otherwords she's afraid of the very thing that can help her.
It seems that if mental illness is also part of the mix with alcohol, there will be no neat and tidy timeline for progress in recovery as the underlying condition has not been addressed, but simply unveiled, or unleashed if alcohol was subduing it.
There could also be PAWS as part of the mix too. I have read on the alcoholism forums that that can take a couple years for the fog to lift.
But assuming there is truly an underlying mental illness, you can't expect much progress until that is addressed.
I don't believe people can usually *see* their own mental illness. They usually have to be told by others, perhaps you and your children, in a family sit-down.
You may have already been down that road with staunch resistance, I don't know. Frightening one's own children on a regular basis should be a wake-up call, but mental illness is stubborn to see itself.
Pound it home?
If you were in the military, seems to me they believe in the power of repetition to drive a thought home. That line about her being deathly afraid of diagnosis...maybe diagnosis is not the death sentence, but the path to clarity, in otherwords she's afraid of the very thing that can help her.
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
Originally Posted by EnglishGarden
For your children there is an excellent book which would likely be of great help to them.
The title is "Surviving the Borderline Parent" by Kimberlee Roth. It is a slim volume, very easy to read, and offers concrete suggestions about how to deal with specific behaviors and situations involving the borderline mother or father. And perhaps it will be of help to you, as well.
The title is "Surviving the Borderline Parent" by Kimberlee Roth. It is a slim volume, very easy to read, and offers concrete suggestions about how to deal with specific behaviors and situations involving the borderline mother or father. And perhaps it will be of help to you, as well.
Real eye-opener.
Will get the book for our daughter.
My therapist told me that when he treats a borderline, he has to call another therapist to process his thinking and emotions because he finds it so difficult to work with persons with this disorder. He said something to the effect that persons with this mental illness affect other individuals in their deep unconscious and it leaves those individuals extremely unsettled.
Your comment about the "don't let mom take us to the woods" phrase your children use: it is profoundly significant. Borderline mothers are often in the news because they did just that. But more often it seems they pick the water to kill their kids.
Even know the lake of choice.
Caddo in East Texas.
I'm glad your children survived their early childhood. But emotionally and psychologically now the mountain that stands before them is to survive their adult life, free of the influence and poison of a very sick and very powerful mother.
I hope you'll take a look at the book. And there is another book titled "Understanding the Borderline Mother" which is also very good, but it's quite thick and not as accessible for them. But in that book there is a section on the kinds of husbands borderline women choose. You might take a look. You might see your page.
I hope you'll take a look at the book. And there is another book titled "Understanding the Borderline Mother" which is also very good, but it's quite thick and not as accessible for them. But in that book there is a section on the kinds of husbands borderline women choose. You might take a look. You might see your page.
She chose me because she seen me working with a child abuse survivor as a pen-pal therapy type thing. Said had never met a man so loving as me. At the time I considered it the greatest compliment I had ever received in my life.
Now I see she wanted that for herself. But the borderline portion is a bottomless hole. Sucks all and demands more until all is consumed and destroyed.
I nearly had a serious relationship with a man whose ex had BPD. So I read up on what that was about. And talked with my therapist. They had 4 children together. The oldest son had stopped talking to the mother altogether and had been suicidal at age 14. The next oldest never smiled. All the children suffered.
There is help for you. This is too big for you.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
Originally Posted by BlueSkies1
So Mrs. Hammer is very resistant to be diagnosed with a mental illness, and you fully believe she has one.
It seems that if mental illness is also part of the mix with alcohol, there will be no neat and tidy timeline for progress in recovery as the underlying condition has not been addressed, but simply unveiled, or unleashed if alcohol was subduing it.
It seems that if mental illness is also part of the mix with alcohol, there will be no neat and tidy timeline for progress in recovery as the underlying condition has not been addressed, but simply unveiled, or unleashed if alcohol was subduing it.
So just how long are we supposed to give "them" to get their crap together after Rehab, anyway?
If there's one thing I've learned through my own experiences with alcoholism and mental illness...you can't treat one and not the other. It doesn't work long term. And sometimes, you can't treat either one, because someone is not willing or able to follow a treatment plan.
So we make a decision. Go down with the ship, or find a life raft and jump. But how far you jump is up to you. Same with your kids. My family chose to continue to be a family, even though it puts my Dad at legal risk for whatever nutty crisis she creates (and there have been many, involving fires, prison, and psych wards). He believes it is his duty to continue to care for her (sound familiar? wounded troop?). But he does it from a distance, and when the crazy sh!t starts flying, he puts on his proverbial rain coat. We have adapted to it, found ways to deal with it in ways that allow us to have our own lives, and accept it for what it is and don't expect anything to change. Ever.
But it took a serious perspective change. Instead of waiting and wondering when she is going to get better, when treatment will finally work, when the meds kick in, etc...we accepted she can't (won't?) change. We know this now. We don't quite understand why it is that she can't accept her diagnoses, but maybe its because she too is a master's level marriage and family therapist with an addictions specialty and this holds her back from seeing it in herself.
We got help from our local NAMI chapter (National Association for Mental Illness). You may find some resources there. too.
Good luck.
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