fourmaggie

i wanted to add one thing...no one has brought up...

AA and AL ANON....its an HONEST, i repeat an HONEST program, if you cant be honest in the program, what do you got?

this is a LIFESTYLE change...it does not go away, it is something you work every minute of your LIFE...

owathu

I am not trying to be mean, but you've already shown him that he can lie to you, keep important information from you and he still gets to have you. You're probably going to stick around and wait for the next shoe to drop. So, now he knows, you might pay lip service to having dealbreakers and boundaries, but you will stick around even after he shows you he will cross those boundaries and break those deals.

The dating site thing was discussed a while ago, and low and behold, he is on another dating site. That is a deal-breaker, and for 99% of women, a major boundary. He knew what your boundary was, and pissed on it. Most women would have walked. Not stuck around for the next deal-breaker.

I am sorry if I come across harsh, I don't mean to, but, please please think long and hard about how quickly you are willing to start "helping" him with his issues, issues that a healthy person wouldn't have. Most men don't need to be told, being on a dating site while in a long term relationship with someone is grounds for dismissal from your life. Period. Especially in light of the fact that this was already discussed. He knows your boundary on this. He doesn't need to be taught it. Do you think he crosses his friends or perhaps his employers boundaries too? He probably doesn't because he knows there are consequences. Not only does he have no consequences with you, he now has you willing to do the work for him.

This is really co-dependant behavior. Sometime we just need to let people be. If they want to be lying cheating sobs, who are we to "train" them any different. He's not a toddler, but a 50 year old man, who DOES know better. He just chooses not to be better. That is his choice. And something you don't need to fix.

I don't know, if I were in this position knowing what I know now, I would be out of there, like last month.

WaterWings

No, actually. We haven't had that discussion, and I don't know that I want to continue the relationship. What I want to do is have an in-person, clarifying discussion laying out all the ground rules.

He doesn't live with me, and I already have the few clothes he had left here packed in a box, along with his toothbrush (although I may take the toothbrush out).

Hmm, let me re-state that first paragraph I wrote. I am not continuing this relationship. I will define how I see an adult relationship, and we start again, or not at all, with clear ground rules. Lying does not work for me and I agree that most people do not need to be told that, but some do. He listens, or he doesn't, but the new relationship starts with honesty, and stops with deceit.

owathu

Ok, what am I missing then? It looks to me that there was a discussion about this, he said he wouldn't do it anymore, and there he is, on another dating site.

Just, really look into why you are willing to consider continuing on with someone who is lying to you repeatedly. It's not about him right now, this has something to do with you inside that you may not be acknowledging.

Delve inside you and figure you out, not try to figure him out. You already know about him, he lies to you.

WaterWings

No, I am acknowledging. I have that cold ball inside me that says that this is over. As I would with any friend, I will offer one final discussion, making sure that we both understand each other. I will, this one time, give him permission to say that he really didn't understand me. And we will make sure that all boundaries are clearly understood. As I said, we've only been dating 8 months, it's not that long, and we never discussed "exclusivity" other than to tell each other we had no interest in dating other people.

I really really want clear understanding between us, for myself, so I know I didn't jump to conclusions, and for him, if he has any use for it. I am not the most emotionally expressive person, and I do not dismiss the possibility that I have been communicating my feelings poorly. I need to lay it all out, logically and clearly, so that I know I have done my part, to the best of my ability, to create a harmonious relationship. If I don't do this, I will always question my own actions.

Having said that, I'm expecting things to turn out the way everyone here is saying they will turn out. I am sad sad sad about that, but I will have to live with myself for the whole rest of my life, and I need to see a strong, confident woman when I look in the mirror, not a doormat.

As I said, I am listening.

itsmylifenow

I've read both your threads and it sounds so familiar to me on so many levels.

I thought my xabf was SO honest when I first met him. And, he was. Brutally honest in ways only A's could be. I started paying attention to how he talked to other people. How smooth he was in getting out of things or how he manipulated a situation in his favor. He hid everything he did and unless it suddenly came up in conversation or someone called him out on something, he never admitted any truths. When I found out he had cheated on me he had to talk with me immediately. He had to give HIS side of the story, the one he said was the right one, before I started hearing (the truth) from other people.

I stayed for 3 years. It was on and off and more damaging to me every time I went back. I remember having boundaries (no drinking/drugs while driving, against hurting animals, no lying, etc) and he managed to make each and every one of them seem unimportant. How? Good question. Some days it's all a blur. But, it was slow and subtle, and it happened. He left me with barely anything left to myself, little self esteem, a head that's in a mess and major trust issues now.

That's MY story. Isn't necessarily going to be yours, but I had signals...BIG signals...and for whatever reason I chose to ignore them.

You have an opportunity to walk away while you can. Let me tell you once you are pulled in it's a b**** to get out of.

Good luck to you

NWGRITS

The problem is that you're trying to treat him like a normal person, and he's not. You can talk to him all you want to, but he's still an addict. Nothing is going to be clear TO him or FROM him. I'm not sure how we can make that any more obvious to you. It seems at this point that you're searching desperately for anything that tells you it's ok to stay. Otherwise why would you keep going around in circles on here despite saying you understand, then going back and contradicting yourself? I'm not trying to be mean, either, but seriously. Step back and look at what you're saying and doing. It doesn't look at all like you're out of that relationship, or that you want to be out of it...

WaterWings

No no no. Not circling, not saying it's ok. Yes, I'm trying to treat him like a normal person, because that's the only way I know how to treat people. If he doesn't respond like a normal person, then I can't have a relationship with him, because I don't know how to do that. If nothing is clear to him, or from him, then that's it.

There's no "staying" involved. This is 8 months of dating. This is the point where I figure out if it's worth investing more time and emotion. This is the point where I decide if I'm "in" or not. This is the point in any relationship where we'd sit down and have a serious "where is this going" talk.

If this doesn't work, I'll be very very sad, but I don't do roller-coaster relationships.

I googled co-dependency and looked at a questionnaire, and that isn't what I do.

Guys, I'm a normal person. I have normal friends. I have normal boyfriends. If they turn out to be not normal, then I have no way to relate to them.

I'm listening to what you're saying, and I'm acknowledging that you are all probably correct, but I'm still going to approach this as one normal person to another, because that's the only way I know how to act.

Normal is not perfect. At 50, everyone has baggage. If his is addiction, so be it, as long as he has it organized and doesn't assume I'm carrying it for him. If it turns out that he has a giant closet stuffed with crap that'll come springing out as soon as the handle is touched, that's not my thing. I'm very very sorry for people that have that much to deal with in their lives. (And I after reading lots of posts on this forum, I am even more sorry for the people that had that closet full of crap sprung on them.) But being sorry for someone, and being sad that you might not be with them, is not the same as saying 'I'll find a way to make it ok'. Not OK is not OK.

I'm listening, I'm aware, I'm understanding. None of these things mean I'm willing. They just mean I gather information in order to make the best choices possible.

You are reading my posts with all of your own, sometimes very horrible experiences in your mind and you are trying to keep me from having my own horrible experience. I absolutely understand that, and I appreciate it. But I don't do horrible, I don't do drama. I'm extremely happy with my own company, and if my partner (or any friend) doesn't make me even happier, then I don't maintain that relationship. This doesn't mean I dump someone going through a bad time, it means I do not maintain toxic relationships.

Really. There are people in the world that just enjoy being happy. Really.

owathu

I just want you to understand we are not piling on you. We've just been there, and the probability that he is just going to continue doing whatever he wants is almost 100%.

Sometimes you just have to throw the fish back and put the pole back in the water. A man or a person, rather, worth having a relationship with, will not have these major issues within the first year, much less, ever. I know it sucks, it's sad, it freaking hurts. I am there with you, but, I decided a decade ago to overlook the glaring red flags in the hopes that I wouldn't have to let go of my dreams or fantasies of what he "could" be.

He had and probably somewhere still has a lot of great qualities. But, the lies, cheating, abandonment, dis-respect just kept piling up. Eventually, I was holding together something that I could say to the outside world was a marriage, but I knew, KNEW in my soul was a big bold faced lie.

I just want to save someone else that pain. And sometimes, people need to learn on their own. No one is judging you. I promise. I was exactly where you were, and I chose to overlook crap that if I had been healthier myself, I would have walked, and saved myself the trouble, financially, emotionally, and most importantly, my lost self esteem. Somewhere inside me, a little glimmer is still there, and she is telling me to continue on my path, no matter how much it hurts. She's the one looking out for me and keeping me strong. Everyday, she gets a little more power back. And I cannot wait til she is here 100%.

MartyMcFly1

flirting or being on dating sites at all is extremely disrespectful to you. Trading vices is not a good thing either.

itsmylifenow

WW, then I envy you. See, we are all coming from a place where we've been to already. And, some of us are co-dependents. Probably most of us in some way or another. And, our viewpoint is very much coming from a different perspective.

I admit after reading your last post, that I don't understand how you don't like the drama. How you stay out of toxic relationships and walk away from what doesn't work.

OMG, that is SO, SO very different for me (and, I can only speak for me). And, if this is what it really is for you and you aren't a co-dependent, then you should have no problem walking away from something you believe is wrong for you.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what that's like. It's foreign to me. But, I wish I had it.

owathu

But, you are doing not normal now. HE is not behaving "normal"... Where is the disconnect coming from? You are saying, out of here in one instance and then wanting to sit and have a discussion with someone who is lying to you. So, either you've been kidding yourself about not doing drama, or you are so used to drama that you think this is normal. You don't do rollercoasters, but, you are on one right now. And you're still on it, and thinking about having a discussion with the rollercoaster itself about how it needs to stop being a rollercoaster.

I don't know your history, I don't know you, to me, you are words on a screen. But I do know denial when I read it. He might be 70% the most wonderful man in the world, but 30% has you searching dating sites and questioning yourself. That is the problem here.

You are seeking outsider's opinions, and sometimes they aren't what you want to hear. But, remember, something made you search for help. If all were good and solid, you wouldn't be questioning it, it would just be.

Fathom

I have to say, I completely understand where WW is coming from. I hate drama, and I think of my generally-considered codependent traits (kind, empathetic, willing to work toward solutions, calmly express my feelings, etc) as being my greatest strengths... but only when dealing with normal mature people who are willing and able to reciprocate. I am, I think, usually considered a strong smart leader type of person. I have not had interactions with any other particularly toxic or abusive people in my life prior to my AH. I was completely unprepared for it when he went off the deep end last year.

The thing is, all those traits that I'm so proud of are really just easily exploited weaknesses by someone who is not so healthy. My AH did show me signs of unhealthy thinking eleven years ago when we were dating that are quite clear to me now, but that I was totally willing to just chock up to a little bit of baggage. We really didn't have much in the way of drama for the next ten years. Why? Because I didn't question or threaten his viewpoints. I would calmly state my opinion and then happily let him do whatever he wanted because, well, it was his life and I didn't want to be a controlling wife. Well, come to realize later... Huh, it's my life too.

There were some lies, that in retrospect should have been a giant wake up call. For instance, I didn't know he had been chewing tobacco until 3 years into living together! But, I thought, "hmm. Well, that's disgusting. But I haven't had a problem with it before now. And, it's his life. So I guess I don't care.". It didn't even dawn on me that he had been lying to me by hiding it from me. I had never told him I didn't want him using tobacco. It's kind of like that Doris Day movie "Don't eat the Daisies.". I shouldn't have to tell him, but to be fair, I didn't. So...

So, yes. We've all been duped by As. Things always seem much more obvious in hindsight. And, we're pretty alert and sensitive to it now. Some of us are way more classically codependent than others. I, personally, couldn't relate to most things in Melody Beattie's books (The exception to that was the chapter on anger). But that didn't mean I was immune to the years of subtle manipulation by my AH. I feel very much knocked down right now.

All this to say... I'm not worried about you, WaterWings. You are in the very early stages of your relationship, and your eyes are beginning to open. I'm glad you are here. Keep learning, and keep being true to yourself.

Peace,
Fathom

fourmaggie

^^^posted from above"All this to say... I'm not worried about you, WaterWings. You are in the very early stages of your relationship, and your eyes are beginning to open. I'm glad you are here. Keep learning, and keep being true to yourself."

your smart, you will figure out NORMIES, As, addicts, dyfunctional codie behaviours and so on.....keep asking, and have an open mind...it will come to you all in time...

Fathom

thinking about having a discussion with the rollercoaster itself about how it needs to stop being a rollercoaster.

:rotfxko
LOL! This one made me guffaw! I've totally tried that!

But, seriously now. I'm calling the Codie Police on all of you trying to beat this one into her head. Give her some time to process all of this. It's a lot, and we all know how confusing it is.

Peace,
Fathom

WaterWings

*snort*
The rollercoaster can be whatever it wants. If it still needs to be a rollercoaster, then I don't need to ride it.

I'm not changing anyone, I'm laying out what I need. If he can't meet those needs, then I don't stay.

I have learned from this site that I need to be pretty specific about what I need, and the consequences if him not meeting those, but after that, *shrug* the ball's in his court. Show me that you are this grown up person I'm expecting, or call me if/when you get to that stage.

I'm listening guys. Much of what you're saying doesn't apply to me, but I do recognize that it very probably applies to him. There's lots of stuff (flags maybe) that I wouldn't know to be aware of had you all not taken the time to explain it to me.

Thank you for being so willing to help a complete stranger.

ShootingStar1

Waterwings, I'm just not getting this discussion here we're all having.

To me, what you are doing IS drama. You are doing, if not HORRIBLE, then at the least you are doing an entwined dance with an alcoholic.

You have a BF who tells you he is an alcoholic. You refuse to accept that and say that you'll treat him as if he were normal because you didn't know him as an alcoholic, and you don't know how to deal with someone who is not normal.

That's dramatic. You are rejecting his own definition of his own identity and superimposing one that you find more to your liking.

Your BF physically removes himself to another state. Your BF rejects being treated as "normal", and surrounds himself with people who accept him as an alcoholic, and know how to support him in his sobriety. You want him to continue have a relationship that fits your definition of "normal".

That's dramatic. He's already left town.

Your BF sends an even stronger signal that he is not comfortable or committed to you by repeatedly going on dating sites knowing that you don't like that. Your response is to want a "discussion" about where he wants this relationship to go.

That's dramatic. He's already telling you by his actions.

"This doesn't mean I dump someone going through a bad time, it means I do not maintain toxic relationships."

This man is not "going through a bad time". HE IS AN ALCOHOLIC and he knows it, and he knows that it is not a temporary condition. Alcoholism is a desperate progressive disease. Read about it. It exists, it is his existential life experience, whether or not you believe it. He can't help it, he can't cure it, all he can do is control it by never touching another drink. This is his reality. It's non-negotiable.

"Really. There are people in the world that just enjoy being happy. Really."


That comes across as if many of us here on Sober Recovery don't "just enjoy being happy"; I'm not sure that's what you mean. That would be a grave and kind of condescending commentary on so many of us who would love to have no cares in the world.

My own personal belief is that God put us here on this earth to learn life lessons; I just sometimes have to wonder why I needed so very many lessons in this particular lifespan, but there you have it, I got them. It is a hard won victory to find happiness in the midst of alcoholic chaos and destruction, and we are all working very hard to get there.

What is so discomforting to me about this discussion is wondering why you continue to try to prolong this relationship and find it so hard to really take in what those of us who have been there are sharing with you.

I don't need an answer, this is more of a private question, but what is it about you that makes it seem so hard (to an observer) for you to accept the reality of who he is? It will be that focus on yourself and your own motivations that will free you to look at your ABF with clear eyes.

Excuse me if I'm too grouchy tonight, I don't mean to be too grouchy or too harsh. It's been a long long day, and maybe happy dreams will help tomorrow be better.

BothSidesNow

WaterWings

uhh. It's been like, two days, this is our first issue, and all I've said is that I need to have an in-person conversation with him before going any further.

No, I'm not rejecting his identity, I simply have no way to relate to it. If he is not at a stage in his life where he can relate to me (what I perceive as normal) then I have no way of having a relationship with him. I have to treat him as normal, because that's all I know how to do, that doesn't mean he has to respond as normal. I have to treat my car as something that will start, because that's all I know what to do with it. If it doesn't start, I'm done. I send it away to someone that knows how to fix it, or I get a new one.

I didn't mean that 'going through a bad time' phrase to relate to him, only to mean that I wouldn't, for example, dump a friend going through a divorce just because she's now a downer. People have problems in their lives, it's only if their problem becomes their life that I don't want to deal with them. If his problem is his life, then so be it.

"Really. There are people in the world that just enjoy being happy. Really."

Had no intention of applying this to anyone on this site, only to say that "Really, I don't need fixing. My goal is my own happiness. Really"

Waiting until we can actually face each other and have a discussion is not prolonging.

And I have no problem with him going (60 minutes) away to be with people that understand his past. In my life I have science friends, I have theater friends, I have commute friends. They are all different groups and they all meet different needs.

The dating sites, yeah, I have an issue with that. We'll discuss it (and the lying) and if we can't resolve it, then we're done. You talk to someone about a problem. He doesn't think it's a big deal, I do. If he can't accept that when I tell him something, it's not done lightly, then we're done. I don't think having a drink is a big deal, he does, I accept that, if I didn't, if I kept at him to go out to a bar with me, I imagine that he would be done.

I think that in a relationship you work at understanding each other. Note that this doesn't mean that you decide that everything is OK. I understand (now) that lying is probably something he spent years doing. If he isn't willing to change that behavior, then it's not OK. I will understand (somewhat) why he's making that choice, and he will (possibly) understand that I'm choosing not to have dishonesty in my life.

I get that he is who he is. I also get that he's trying to change who he is. Now I need to know where he is in that process of change. He has shown me, through other things, that he is willing to change behaviors that don't work for me. I will give him the chance to show me that he's willing to change this one too. He may not be there. OK, he's probably not there, but I will give him the chance.

Just because I want to understand why he does things doesn't mean I'm rationalizing them.

WaterWings

Be as grouchy and harsh as you want to be. Your opinions and questions are valid, and I would be an idiot if I didn't recognize that every person on here speaks from an experience I've never had.

NWGRITS

I'm not changing anyone, I'm laying out what I need. If he can't meet those needs, then I don't stay.

I guess I'm not getting it, either. It's a whole train full of crazy and drama barreling down the track with your ABF in the driver's seat. You are trying to change him, and you've admitted it many times. Most recently, with the above statement. I'll back away now, because it's not going anywhere other than in circles. I wish you the best of luck for if/when you decide to leave and seek recovery for yourself.