sigh. I guess a jerk is just a jerk
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by Hopeworks 
I hope you have a two story bedroom... it is more fun tossing their crap and watching it all fall a loooong way to the lawn.
He only has a few things here. No cohabitation, just some underwear and a t-shirt. Those aren't all that entertaining when they fall.
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 284
WaterWings!You must be a power reader! It took me days of nearly constant reading when I first got here to learn enough about alcoholism to see through his BS. I am very impressed with your email. It was very clear and completely dead on. But, yup, completely wasted on him. My XAH was the same way after he stopped drinking - was not willing to take responsibility for any of his unhealthy behaviors. He tried to lob them onto my shoulders. Thankfully, I knew better than to accept it by that point.
((Hopeworks))
That saying has so many forms. I guess the first time I read it was around this last X-mas. This is still my favorite version:
Take the rum out of a fruitcake, you still have a fruitcake.
LOL. I hate fruitcake! And rum was my XAH's drink of choice for a long while.
Stay strong and clear, WaterWings.
Fathom
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Join Date: Aug 2012
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Long phone conversation. I think it's fair to have an in-person conversation. I like the 'boundaries' theme. I expected him to know what mine are (because they are pretty typical, I think), but I also realize he's coming from a history that is completely different from mine.
I dunno. I'm currently removing the existing alcohol in the house by drinking it. Since I can only handle two drinks before I dislike the way I feel, I think the rest of the liqueurs are going to end up at a friend's house this weekend. But I'm done thinking about this for today, and I certainly don't make decisions, or take any actions after having a drink.
sigh. I'm whiny and depressed and need to snuggle my kitties.
I dunno. I'm currently removing the existing alcohol in the house by drinking it. Since I can only handle two drinks before I dislike the way I feel, I think the rest of the liqueurs are going to end up at a friend's house this weekend. But I'm done thinking about this for today, and I certainly don't make decisions, or take any actions after having a drink.
sigh. I'm whiny and depressed and need to snuggle my kitties.
Bunnies!
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,905
Honestly, in your situation and with what you're taking on, have a drink at all is a bad idea. You're upset with an A, and yet you're choosing to have alcohol to help yourself feel better or whatever. Dump the stuff out or give it to someone else. It's the last thing you need right now.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 33
I know. But he's not here, so I'm protected from making bad choices (other than the drink). Alcohol doesn't change anything, but sometimes it's nice to pretend that your life has no problems. I also find it amusing/ironic that I'm having one of my rare drinking-to-excess events (two drinks) whilst reading through a forum dedicated to recovering from addiction.
Starting my third drink, which is pineapple juice thinned with water, because how on earth could anyone drink more of that stuff that makes you so dizzy?
Bah. I'll have a headache from all the sugar I'm consuming.
Starting my third drink, which is pineapple juice thinned with water, because how on earth could anyone drink more of that stuff that makes you so dizzy?
Bah. I'll have a headache from all the sugar I'm consuming.
Today is a New Day
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,766
One of the important things that it took me awhile to realize was that nothing I said to XABF would ever get through that alcoholic thinking.
I remember talking to him after he'd been in rehab for almost two weeks. I was there with his daughter, and I was telling him about how I wasn't sure I still loved him and if we were ever going to work we had to rebuild our relationship from the beginning... And he looked back at me with tears in his eyes and told me that my words were hard to hear but he understood and he knew I deserved that...
I thought I had FINALLY gotten through to him until a half hour later, after his daughter left, he's on the concrete floor starting to propose to me. I told him "Don't even start that," and he looked up at me and said, "I understand... You want it to be special... Maybe I should get you a ring!"
And I realized that he hadn't heard anything I had said earlier, and this was after the rehab had certified he had a 0% alcohol level for the last 9 days, so I couldn't blame it on the whiskey. He just wasn't listening to me, he was just saying what he wanted me to hear, what he felt would keep me there - agreeing with and "validating" my pain, and then proposing. He hadn't listened enough to realize that he couldn't agree with my pain and propose, that they would cancel each other out and reveal what he was trying to hide, and so in his mistake I found my clarity and saw the truth.
So say what you need to say because it helps you, but it only helps if you have no expectations of any sort of positive change on his end, because even if there is one it is only temporary, it's a hook to keep us engaged. This is why some people prefer to write letters that are never sent, but of course sometimes it is important to voice our boundaries so that we feel our own resolve when it comes time to follow through on what we said we'd do if they were crossed. Towards the end I voiced my boundaries knowing they wouldn't be respected, but also knowing that telling them to him was the best way for me to hold myself accountable for following through.
I have a new boyfriend now. He loves me and respects me for who I am, and doesn't try to change me into something else to suit his tastes more. He's always honest with me, even about things he knows I won't particularly like, and I can be honest with him and know that he's not going to use it against me later.
I never thought I'd have something like that in my life, but he's here, and now I know what it feels like to be cherished. And things may not work out for the long term, or they might - who knows? But there's no expectations that either of us are going to be someone or something other than what we are, and our relationship is built on trust and respect and a mutual admiration. And I never knew that was possible, before...
I remember talking to him after he'd been in rehab for almost two weeks. I was there with his daughter, and I was telling him about how I wasn't sure I still loved him and if we were ever going to work we had to rebuild our relationship from the beginning... And he looked back at me with tears in his eyes and told me that my words were hard to hear but he understood and he knew I deserved that...
I thought I had FINALLY gotten through to him until a half hour later, after his daughter left, he's on the concrete floor starting to propose to me. I told him "Don't even start that," and he looked up at me and said, "I understand... You want it to be special... Maybe I should get you a ring!"
And I realized that he hadn't heard anything I had said earlier, and this was after the rehab had certified he had a 0% alcohol level for the last 9 days, so I couldn't blame it on the whiskey. He just wasn't listening to me, he was just saying what he wanted me to hear, what he felt would keep me there - agreeing with and "validating" my pain, and then proposing. He hadn't listened enough to realize that he couldn't agree with my pain and propose, that they would cancel each other out and reveal what he was trying to hide, and so in his mistake I found my clarity and saw the truth.
So say what you need to say because it helps you, but it only helps if you have no expectations of any sort of positive change on his end, because even if there is one it is only temporary, it's a hook to keep us engaged. This is why some people prefer to write letters that are never sent, but of course sometimes it is important to voice our boundaries so that we feel our own resolve when it comes time to follow through on what we said we'd do if they were crossed. Towards the end I voiced my boundaries knowing they wouldn't be respected, but also knowing that telling them to him was the best way for me to hold myself accountable for following through.
I have a new boyfriend now. He loves me and respects me for who I am, and doesn't try to change me into something else to suit his tastes more. He's always honest with me, even about things he knows I won't particularly like, and I can be honest with him and know that he's not going to use it against me later.
I never thought I'd have something like that in my life, but he's here, and now I know what it feels like to be cherished. And things may not work out for the long term, or they might - who knows? But there's no expectations that either of us are going to be someone or something other than what we are, and our relationship is built on trust and respect and a mutual admiration. And I never knew that was possible, before...
I AM CANADIAN
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Niagara Region, Canada
Posts: 2,578
its funny, someone said that 'more will be revealled'...oh gosh, that is so true...i only "dated" my A for 4 mths...and at the end, i was at "WTF?"
stage...until he left....i DID indeed found out more...good ridance!
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 33
Originally Posted by PaperDolls
Even an alcoholic, sober or not, knows that lying is wrong.
I don't know how else to approach it, and I don't know how else to give him the tools he needs to change his behavior, if it is something he wants to change.
I know, some of you are thinking 'well that'll just give him time to think up a better lie' but seriously guys, do any of you not recognize the lies as soon as you hear them? It would have to be a phenomenal lie to pass.
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I've only posted you guys the bad stuff. I didn't tell you about the three solid days of hard labor he spent ripping rotting siding off my house, and then cutting out rotting wood down to the foundation to make sure it was repaired correctly, and then putting everything back together, better than it ever was.
I didn't tell you about the hours he spent tromping through the woods trying to track the coyote after my cat disappeared.
Or walking 4 miles uphill in the heat to bring me gas when my truck ran out by the side of the road.
In so many ways he really is "there" for me. In so many ways he really is trying to learn how to be a partner. There are just so many things he hasn't lived through, he doesn't understand what they mean to another person.
He told me that looking on the dating sites was something that made him feel "normal". Not sure what that means. I still think it's a bad behavior, and he shouldn't do it, and if what he means by "normal" is connecting with people, then I'll try to think of some alternatives. Some lovely, helpful forum, maybe.
We've done some volunteer work together, and he is at his happiest when he feels useful, and surrounded by people that are happily working there butts off to make something good happen.
I think he needs normal friends. Not just people from the program, but people who have spent their lives living.
I didn't tell you about the hours he spent tromping through the woods trying to track the coyote after my cat disappeared.
Or walking 4 miles uphill in the heat to bring me gas when my truck ran out by the side of the road.
In so many ways he really is "there" for me. In so many ways he really is trying to learn how to be a partner. There are just so many things he hasn't lived through, he doesn't understand what they mean to another person.
He told me that looking on the dating sites was something that made him feel "normal". Not sure what that means. I still think it's a bad behavior, and he shouldn't do it, and if what he means by "normal" is connecting with people, then I'll try to think of some alternatives. Some lovely, helpful forum, maybe.
We've done some volunteer work together, and he is at his happiest when he feels useful, and surrounded by people that are happily working there butts off to make something good happen.
I think he needs normal friends. Not just people from the program, but people who have spent their lives living.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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Originally Posted by WaterWings
I know, some of you are thinking 'well that'll just give him time to think up a better lie' but seriously guys, do any of you not recognize the lies as soon as you hear them? It would have to be a phenomenal lie to pass.
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,754
Waterwings, you are very smart, bright, you have a sense of humor and you are a compassionate and loving person.
You suffer from the same sickness I do, oh yes I am very sick, co dependency is as hostile and vicious as alcoholism.
I work on my sickness everyday, I hate it. I am sure it is shortening my life span, what I have gone through, at my own hand, I would not want my worst enemy to go through.
I feel for you, loving an alcoholic can be a life sentence, once I realized that, I knew things had to change. Sleepless night, anxiety, depression, inability to eat sleep, worry, on and on and on, and while I was doing all of that, my real life, was crumbling around me.
The dating site thing, it's a dealbreaker, there is nothing normal about an attached man, hanging on a dating site, it's sick.
Take good care of yourself, love to you Katie
You suffer from the same sickness I do, oh yes I am very sick, co dependency is as hostile and vicious as alcoholism.
I work on my sickness everyday, I hate it. I am sure it is shortening my life span, what I have gone through, at my own hand, I would not want my worst enemy to go through.
I feel for you, loving an alcoholic can be a life sentence, once I realized that, I knew things had to change. Sleepless night, anxiety, depression, inability to eat sleep, worry, on and on and on, and while I was doing all of that, my real life, was crumbling around me.
The dating site thing, it's a dealbreaker, there is nothing normal about an attached man, hanging on a dating site, it's sick.
Take good care of yourself, love to you Katie
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
Originally Posted by WaterWings
Yes. But I also don't think you can stop one behavior without having something to replace it. For whatever reason, this person has learned to use lying as a coping mechanism. There has to be a better way. I've never had kids, so I don't know how you guide a small child through the 'lying is bad' stage, but this is a grown man, so I'm thinking something along the lines of "If you feel the best thing to do is to tell me a lie to make things better, please just stop and say 'I need a walk' or some other action. This will tell me that you need some time to be able to answer, and I will stop, and give you that time.
I don't know how else to approach it, and I don't know how else to give him the tools he needs to change his behavior, if it is something he wants to change.
I know, some of you are thinking 'well that'll just give him time to think up a better lie' but seriously guys, do any of you not recognize the lies as soon as you hear them? It would have to be a phenomenal lie to pass.
I don't know how else to approach it, and I don't know how else to give him the tools he needs to change his behavior, if it is something he wants to change.
I know, some of you are thinking 'well that'll just give him time to think up a better lie' but seriously guys, do any of you not recognize the lies as soon as you hear them? It would have to be a phenomenal lie to pass.
You shouldn't have to guide a grown man through something he already knows is wrong. I don't get the logic.
YOU don't need to give a grown man the tools to change his behavior. If he's in recovery, hopefully he has sober friends he can talk with or a sponsor. It's not up to you to make sure he does or remind him that he should seek out their help.
I'll say this again. This is not about his behaviors, or how you can help him change, or what you can do to make it easier for him. This is about YOU and your thinking and what you are willing to put up with in a relationship. For me, lying is a deal breaker. In the past it wasn't so I do understand.
My point is that you should consider focusing on you and your boundaries and what is acceptable to you.
In my experience, focusing on how you can change someone else will cause you to lose yourself.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
Originally Posted by WaterWings
And many people are willing to be lied to. It's a team effort.
You are seeing the chinks in his armor now. 8 months is probably faster than most. Took me 18 months, and no I was not willing to be lied to. I just made an assumption that he was a grown man and took him at his word. When his words no longer matched the actions, I had some serious decisions to make.
What I see here more often than not are people, men and women alike, trying to slug through the process of making those same serious decisions. And not a one of them is willing to be lied to.
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Join Date: Aug 2012
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Still listening.
What I've gotten so far:
Do not lose myself.
Do not forget that this is a person and must run his own life.
Firmly define my own boundaries for myself, and do not compromise them.
I will let him know what parts of his behavior do not work for me, and will not accept them if he chooses not to change them.
I will discuss our relationship, it's boundaries and definitions, and how we both will proceed.
I am his friend, not his mother or his therapist.
What other parts of your (very kind and helpful) messages have I missed?
What I've gotten so far:
Do not lose myself.
Do not forget that this is a person and must run his own life.
Firmly define my own boundaries for myself, and do not compromise them.
I will let him know what parts of his behavior do not work for me, and will not accept them if he chooses not to change them.
I will discuss our relationship, it's boundaries and definitions, and how we both will proceed.
I am his friend, not his mother or his therapist.
What other parts of your (very kind and helpful) messages have I missed?
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