roisindubh

What am I missing here? I've read all these posts and haven't seen one thing about Alanon. Isn't that the group that helps family members deal with the alcoholic/addict in their lives? I'm in AA and a lot of the members who are in relationships with addicted people (even ones who are clean and sober) attend Alanon meetings. I read about people like KeepinOnDaily on this website who are struggling for long periods of time trying to come to terms with the behavior of an addicted person who is abusive in numerous ways. I wonder why they don't go where they can get the help and support they need to move on and separate from the person destroying their lives.

Just for the record - I did get sober in an attempt to save my marriage. I wasn't successful - my husband walked out again and the second time he didn't come back. I stayed sober anyway and just celebrated 22 years of sobriety. I always hear that we should get sober for ourselves not someone else - using sobriety as a tool to manipulate someone else will only result in an individual continuing to relapse.

dollydo

IF he gets sober, IF he stays sober and works a strong recovery program for a minimum of a year you can possibly get back together.

On top of his issue with alcohol he is a cheater, for all you know, he could be fooling around right now with someone else.

For now, there is no proof that he is going to do anything but make empty promises. Your girls will be fine, children adapt very well.

I wouldn't put my life on hold betting on the come.

wanttobehealthy

I've been in this situation with my AH and this is what happens. He makes the most serious promises and really, truly believes them when he says them. I even think he thinks he wants to follow through. Then the fear leaves him when I give in and within days its back to the same old same old except that each time the promises are broken I got a little crazier and more distraught and it made it a LOT harder to get to the leaving point again.

If you don't want to file for divorce right now, that's okay. Don't. Just be apart for now and if he's committed to doing the outpatient program, AA, cousneling etc... he'll still do them whether you're together or not. He can't do those things only bc you agree to not leave him. He needs to do those things whether you're there or not. If he does them even with you gone, then maybe that's a sign that he's taking his life seriously.

I went back too many times to count and I suppose I needed to in order to get to the point where I figured out for myself that it wasn't ever going to work. Plenty of people chastised and judged me and that did no good and I'd never do that to you or anyone else. I'll just say that you should do what your gut tells you and also, one thing I've found helpful when I feel doubt about a decision I know I need to make, is to look back at what I said/wrote when I made the decision to leave. That helps a lot...

KeepinOnDaily

I have been communicating with him and the NO contact thing isn't going to happen esp since we have two kids and need to discuss financial things for now. Plus --we were friends before we even married and I have known him since I was 16, so not talking w him is really a difficult thing to do.
The sad thing is-- he isn't drinking anymore and he's a much calmer person and I have never seen him go without drinking like this for this long with such determination and such open honesty about it for the first time.
I know this sounds like the typical response but he was never a falling down drunk, so luckily the kids didn't really see some crazy person passing out or anything...it was just me who would be frustrated with him being depressed and tired or hungover or whatever all the time so I was a constant nag and sarcastic controller because of it. The kids aren't stupid tho and knew when there was tension and its not good. They really enjoyed seeing him the other day at his parents and it was a good thing for them. My little one said 'Mommy, my tummy feels better after seeing daddy."

I know I can end this marriage and try and remain friends with him and let him do what he needs to do to recover---this is harder on me because I see how sad, remorseful and determined he is to make this work and I just feel sort of guilty speaking to a lawyer about divorce--but I also know I have also lost trust in him. So how can I have a marriage when there is not trust and a lot of bitterness on my part for so much that happened in the past?
My parents helped pay for the retainer for the lawyer and they feel like he's a lost cause, that I have dealt with the drinking for so long and my dad told me im a "stupid idiot" because I have been communicating with him and "no wonder you are in the position you are in now"... Parents certainly complicate this matter.
I JUST WISH I HAD A CRYSTAL BALL so I could see into the future -- might things work out? might things not? the what ifs are killing me....

wanttobehealthy

I do really understand this... I've been friends with my AH much longer than we've been married and I thought I had to be in touch with him to talk about the girls. The thing is, he wasn't real helpful with communication about the girls when we were together full time and my desire to be in contact with him about the girls was, I think, more about me being afraid to make the decisions myself and deal with his anger at me bc of that than it was about believing he cared about communicating about their needs.

I have not gone NC with my AH but we are having very little contact currently and it's made it much much easier. I come on here or talk to my sponsor when I am inclined to get sucked in to the "I'm so sorry's"... I do believe your H and mine ARE sorry. They are sorry that they are having to look squarely at themselves, they are sorry that you and I aren't willing to be the scapegoat anymore, they are sorry they were caught in acts that are totally unacceptable etc... If your H does decide to get help and learn to live life like an adult (take responsibility, be trustworthy, be honest etc...) there's nothing stopping you from going back to him once he demonstrates he wants to do these things. Right now, what do you have other than his words to tell you he is committed to doing this different?

Trust me I am not trying to be harsh -- I have listened to my AH's apologies and I'm sorry's and I promises and gone running back without seeing ACTIONS that match the words more times than I can count. I know how hard it is to be where you are. I really do.

My AH wasn't a falling down drunk either-- I wonder how many are? It seems like we tell ourselves it's not that bad bc they aren't falling down drunk but when I look back at that post on things normies wouldn't know I realize that 95% of the things there describe my life to a T and that's a sign to me that falling down drunk or not, my AH is really very ill. Sometimes I actually wished he'd be more obviously drunk bc my poor kids are a mess and confused and have been for a while. They feel the tension. They know not to ask Daddy for help, for a snack, for much of anything, they know to be on their best behavior (D5 tells D3 this) when Daddy is home... They know there are "rules" even though they aren't sure why. I think that high functioning alcoholism is really really hard for kids (and grown ups) bc it's less obvious/less tangible than falling down drunk behavior and makes us question "is it really that bad?" just as you and I have done.

It's heartbreaking to see our kids missing their dad and what your little one said made me feel so sad for him and for you all. But think about what you wrote just a few weeks ago about what you didn't want to subject your kids to... Your kids miss their dad but all of you being under the same roof doesn't seem to be the answer-- at least not until he's fully entrenched in some kind of program of recovery.

Here's what I've seen with my AH. He can be on his best behavior, not drink, be kind, be helpful, be responsible, be a great dad etc... while he's trying to convince me to give him another chance. The INSTANT I give in, the charming H disappears and the lying, drinking, lazy, selfish H returns. They are sick. They are addicts and they do what addicts do. They manipulate to get what they need. I don't doubt your love for your H is very real but I do doubt your H's motivations for not drinking and making the promises he's making. Is he doing so bc he really is prepared to change his whole way of life and work hard on himself and deal with pain and discomfort healthily? Or is he making all these promises bc he is afraid of what being without you means? I know for my AH, it's the latter. I wish it were the former but I know it's not and no matter what, this time I will not be going back. Not just because it's bad for me but bc what this chaos has done to my kids is too much for them and I will carry guilt for what they have had to live with for the rest of my life. I can't change the past but I will not continue to make the same choices. If AH decides to get help, there's nothing that says we can't get back together much much much later from now. But for now, the only choice that makes sense (no matter how sad it is and how hard it is and how much I wish it weren;t the case) is for me to be apart from him.

I'm there too. No trust. None. No one in their right mind would trust our H's. You're rational and right to not trust him right now and if he can't accept that or see why that is that's a huge sign that he's not ready to look at himself.

I'm sorry your dad called you that-- surely that does not help. I imagine your Dad is sad to see his daughter being hurt, but getting annoyed with you isn't the best way for him to express that...

What about setting a time period for yourself-- a month or two let's say and tell yourself and your H that you aren't going to discuss your marriage in that time (and are going to live apart for that time). You can just observe what he's like-- whether he's doing the things he says he will, you can see how he interacts with your kids and you and at the end of that time you can have a conversation about the next step. At that time it could be to stay apart or move back in together or ???

I know I've made decisions too quickly in the past and just don't want to see someone else make the same mistake...

I know that feeling all too well. The only way I've been able to keep my sanity with the what if's is to say that no matter how much I worry or obsess I am not going to know the future so I may as well just focus on today and deal with the future when it comes. What is it you can do today for you and the kids that will make you feel better? Is there anything?

I'm thinking of you-- hang in there...

Oh one last thought... someone asked me this (or maybe I asked myself-- I really can't remember anymore) and it has stuck with me in recent weeks... "if your daughter were in the same situation you are in, what would you tell her/want her to do?".

I am the queen of coming up with reasons to give AH more chances, to believe in there being a chance, in having hope, etc... but the reality is that if either of my daughters were EVER in a situation like the one I've been in, I'd be a mess with worry about them and try to extricate them from it as fast as possible. It's harder to rationalize and a lot easier to see things objectively when you imagine someone you love being in your shoes and think about what you'd do for them...

So, if your daughter(s) were in the situation you're in, what would you tell them?

zrx1200R

your parents are correct. Is this the FIRST time you've asked him to sober up? I didn't think so.

They lie. They say anything. They have NOTHING to lose. They simply must have a host.

Move on, file for the divorce, get divorced, live a happy life. IF, and it's a real big if, he mends his ways there is nothing that says you can't get back together. It is not YOUR fault you are divorcing. It is due to 17 years of living with an alcoholic.

Divorcing won't be any easier at 20 years together. Nor will it be easier at 25 years together.

it might just be the best thing to happen to both of you. Maybe it will be his rock bottom. Perhaps you find peace.

You deserve an honest, loving, thoughtful, caring, respectful husband.

Think about how much smoother your day to day life could be with someone like I just described versus with what you have now.

Zebras can't change their stripes, and they aren't really horses.

KeepinOnDaily

I know I deserve an honest, trustworthy, respectful husband...at times I had that, but lately it was like we were living in the same house and just acting as roommates.
I was so young when we met and I married him at 23, I thought we'd be the perfect storybook marriage because I felt I WAS doing everything right-- I married my highschool sweetheart, moved into a nice house in the suburbs, had great vacations, had two healthy kids, drove nice cars, had a job as a teacher, and yet the dream was shattered.
I have always forgiven him when he made mistakes. I know I wasn't perfect either, but I just feel like his constant mistakes or empty promises just make me feel like a failure for allowing myself to buy into it all. I do believe he loves me and this is the first time he has ever stopped drinking since i have known him---and going to AA meetings, so of course, his head is somewhat cleared to the crazy things he was saying and doing but at this point I have to trust ACTIONS on his part.
My parents are hurting too. Just yesterday my mom was crying and saying 'He destroyed our wonderful family..." and about how much she loved him and always treated him like a son...and she just doesn't want me to continue on with someone who has made so many promises and never kept them.

I know it is HIM who let ME down but why do I feel like it is ME who let everyone else around me down?? I feel like I am letting my children down, my parents, my family...his family...

Tuffgirl

KeepinOn - I have followed this thread but not posted yet...I think your thread title is a really hard question to answer and very subjective, no matter what your circumstances are...only you can decide if there is hope or not.

But what I can say is dropping the self-guilt would be a great first step toward sanity and peace. It took me a while, but once I did drop it, it was like losing the 500 lb gorilla off my back. You did the best you could with what you had to work with. You say you did everything "right" - well then why feel like you let everyone down? Does that make sense? If you did everything "right", then you should look yourself in the mirror each morning and feel proud that you did succeed even if this situation itself wasn't successful.

We can't control everything around us, but we can do the best we can do to live up to our own internal values. If the rest of the world doesn't comply, that is out of our control. But each night when I go to bed, I take my own personal inventory and feel good about the way I acted, regardless of the outcome.

wanttobehealthy

I don't know about your particular FOO or how you feel inside other than what you share but the sentiment you describe above is something I have wrestled with a LOT myself and I've come to the following conclusion.

I think that I feel like it's ME who is letting people down bc my marriage is ending and has been a disaster bc:

a) I was told I was a failure most of my life and I've fought hard to prove my FOO wrong by being overly successful when I could be, by being anorexic for yrs to demonstrate that I could "excel" at being thinnest, by staying in a bad marriage bc to leave would have been to admit I "failed". So, perhaps there's some of that desire in you too? A sense that you have to be perfect and have to prove that you're not a failure and bc of that you stay in bad situations?

b) I felt for many years that my ONLY redeeming quality was being the person who cared about others (hello codependent!). I felt that if I wasn't the person who cared about others the most (more so even than myself) that I wouldn't be liked, that I'd be told I was selfish, that I'd be nothing. So, to leave a struggling, sad, alcoholic who makes all kinds of promises and plays the victim role so well just wasn't something I could do. For years I had to stay to "save" him even when it meant that I put my own well being and that of our kids secondary to him.

I really really get the sense of feeling like it's ME letting everyone down and feeling like I've failed. I know what you're describing and I think that it's part of the disease and how it has impacted us. YOU are not letting anyone down but you've been in a r/s with someone who has made you think for years that you were doing something wrong if you stood up for yourself so of course now you automatically believe that.

I am so sorry you are having such a hard time and I believe today is your anniversary right? That has to be terrible. I wish I could give you a hug in person-- I am sending you one from afar and thinking of you today!

Leaping

Yes, the dream marriage is shattered. I read on here somewhere about Prince Charming puking in the glass slipper. My story is very similiar to yours - had the same conversation with my mom one day when she was in tears because she cared about my STBXAH as well, he was like a son to her. Please know that it takes a very long time for your husband's mind to clear (rehab docs told me 6-9 months at a minimum in our case). I think your AH (and mine) do want to stop drinking. I think when they tell you all the things that are going to change they believe it and want it - but the disease takes over and in the end the actions dont change.

Divorce is like a death in the family. There are stages of grief, disbelief and regret. In my case, I knew I had done everything I could and that I had carried my husband as far as I could, in the end he was just too heavy.

Hugs -

chronsweet

I had the same thing happen to me just last night. I am finally getting the courage to leave my ABF so our son can have a chance at normalcy. I told him why I am leaving. And basically, he did not take any responsibility for his own actions. He half way accepts that maybe alcohol does cause problems but still maintains he is not an alcoholic and can quit 'any time'. Wash/rinse/repeat. I cried and told him about the torment he has caused me for so many years and he didn't even say sorry. WOW! I let it slide and then told him about 30 minutes later, you know you didn't even apologize. Of course at that point he said, "yeah i did", and then gave me an empty apology. LOL.

These stories are ALL so similar. Different people, different lives, different neighborhoods, but the underlying story and message is the same.

So you spent 17 years with this man's abuse including CHEATING. YUCK! You deserve to spend the next 17, HAPPY and not stressed out and worrying constantly. You have to come to a point where you KNOW that you deserve better than this. You have to come to a point where you will not accept the lies and deceit any longer. IF and only IF he makes an honest commitment to sobriety and accepts he cannot drink ever again can you ever think about letting him back in your life. And by back in your life that means on your terms whether a friendship or committed relationship.

fedup3

Keepinondaily, if you stand back and think if I have to make a choice between my husband or my kids which would I chose? That's your answer on what to do.

returntonormal

I am in a very similar position to you Keepinondaily, although I've only been with my husband for 11 years. Last month I finally got to the point where I realized I could not and would not continue in a relationship with him while he was drinking. The five-step model of grief works quite well I think: I went from denial to anger at his drinking (for years), spent the last year consistently bargaining about how much and how often, and then sunk into a depression last March. It took a LONG time for me to get to the point where I could accept that our relationship had broken down, that the kids *were* affected, and that I was doing everything I could to hold together a relationship that was based only on past dreams, instead of reality.

Like your husband, mine quit drinking when I told him I wanted to separate. It's been two weeks and I've made it really clear that I don't know if I even want to be in the relationship with him. My trust is gone and I can see that life without him would be peaceful. I am NOT sure I can EVER trust him again - but especially trust that he won't pick up a drink in a month, six months, or a year from now. All other trust was gone long ago - trust that I could tell him my feelings, ask for support, etc. So we're in a holding pattern. He's not drinking, hoping I'll forgive all, and I'm waiting.

I wish I had your courage - I wish he was living elsewhere. In fact, I think a separation is critical for us. It doesn't mean "forever". It just means that for right now it's the right thing to do.

I second the notion that only you know the answer to your question, and only your husband can decide for himself if he's done drinking... I wish you peace. You aren't alone.

LaTeeDa

I believe there is always hope. For the alcoholic, the marriage, whatever it is. BUT (and this is a BIG BUT), hope needs to be put in it's proper perspective. Hope is but a possibility, not something you should hinge your existence on. It's okay to hope for a particular outcome, as long as we remember that many outcomes are possible, and accept that.

I've been reading this thread and refraining from commenting on it because my views are sometimes interpreted as harsh. I recognize what you are going through because I went through the very same thing about six years ago.

My life, or at least my perception of my life, was completely and totally dependent on what he did or didn't do. If he was to get sober, my life would be good. If he wasn't, all was lost. I never realized I had the power to have a good life no matter what he chose to do. I had lost all sense of myself as an individual being. It took some time, and a really good therapist, to figure out that I have a place and a part to play in this grand scheme of the universe. To discover that his path and my path weren't necessarily bound together. That I could be a whole and complete being with my own dreams, desires, passions, and purpose--with or without him. What a revelation.

It's funny how once you get started excavating yourself, you become less and less obsessed with them. You start to get caught up in making the best of your life and you stop trying to control theirs. You make your choices, define your values, then it's up to them to join you or not. But, if they don't, it's not the end of you. It's only the beginning.

L

yorkiegirl

KeepinOn,

I am so feeling for you. It could still work *but* you should focus on you and your healing, not on him, his needs, or his wants. If he truly wants to win you back, he has to be committed to his recovery. It sounds like he has a long, long way to go *and* you have serious trust issues (rightfully so) with him. I think you know what it is you want to do and have to do, but his words tug at your heart. Listen to your wants and desires. Give yourself the gift of taking care of you. Pray for him (from afar). Cheer him on (from afar). Send him positive vibes (from afar). Until his head is clear and he is in full and sincere recovery mode, he may not understand or appreciate why you are leaving and why you need to look out for yourself and your kids. That's okay. That's for him to struggle with to comprehend.

Leaving him and removing yourself from him may be the best thing you can do for yourself and your children. (It may be the best thing you could do for him as well). Although your leaving him should not be contingent upon him and what may or may not be best for him, it may (or may not) give him on opportunity to own up to himself and his responsibilities. That, however, is up to him, not you.

It must be difficult when he is telling you that you are his soul-mate and that he'll do whatever to keep you. (He very well could be, but until he gets well and demonstrates that, they are just words, for now. . .) I would release him to the Universe and ask the Universe to look after him, and I'd focus on you & your kids. I agree with all of the responses.

If it is meant to be, it will be. . . but for now, I too think you should listen to your own needs and desires and tend to them. Put yourself and your children first!

Farfalla

I am going through the same situation. My husband abuses percocets, xanax, weed, suboxen and whatever else he can get his hands on. He has stolen from me and cheated on me. Married 18 years. Gave him option to get help or loose me. He chose the loose me. So, with that being said I am receiving text messages...you don't love me, blah blah blah. I am emotionally and physically exhausted. I have two children I need to focus my energy on. I feel sorry for his bad choices but I can't have those bad choices in my life and all the people his addiction brings along with it. Truthfully the people he bothers with scare me. I fear for my safety and the safety of my children as long as he engages in this drug activity.

KeepinOnDaily

Yes, his words do tug at my heart. He tells me he put himself first for so long and he admits it, but he also always had the responsibility of paying all the bills which I had no part in, now I see how wrong that was. He says he will do whatever it takes and wants to "start fresh" and is going to church, reconciliation, AA, etc. He wants me to go talk to the priest who married us with him. He tells me he just would like me to take it slowly, day by day and he will prove it to me. I said I just dont know anymore.
The worst part is my kids keep asking "When is daddy going to come back to the house for forever?" And I have to tell them I dont know, we just take it one day at a time.
He is trying so hard to win me back and doing everything right so far but I can't help but feel like if I don't put my foot down on this I will be suckered into being hurt again--- but i also feel like if i don't give this a chance I will also be kidding myself because I do love him and my kids just want to see us be together. I know I need to do what is best for me now and seriously dont know what is best any more. People make divorce or this "no contact" thing seem like such an easy decision at times, but when two little kids are involved and families are torn apart, it is insanely hard to go through with it. I see how confused my kids are...just the other day they were playing barbies and I overheard them saying the dolls are getting divorced. I haven't told my kids anything but they listen and other people in our lives are getting divorced too so its a big topic lately.
I told him if he would have put forth all this effort a month ago we wouldnt be here in this position now. I am nauseous every single day thinking and worrying about this and I just want to crawl under my covers and cry but I have to hold it together for my girls.

Leaping

This story reminds me so much of my own. My husband and I made the decision together alnmost 13 years ago for me to stay home and raise the kids and he was to be the breadwinner and pay the bills. Yes this puts stresses on him as provider.

I can only ask you to really watch what his actions show you. My AH is real big on ME not looking back and wants me to stop living in the past. Why? Because then he doesnt have to answer for his behavior.

My children are asking when their daddy can come again as well. This is not a good enough reason to let him come back. My children are too young to know the damage that has been and can be done by an alcoholic household. My response is always about the choices Daddy is making, that it is ok to love him and that he loves them but right now he isnt making healthy and safe choices. You are grieving the loss of your marriage, allow that to run its course.

Remeber why you came to this website in the first place and why you asked him to leave the house. What is good for the family is also what is good for the alcoholic.

LaTeeDa

Easy? Hardly! I was married for 20 years. My children were 9 and 13 when I made the decision to separate from their dad. It was the hardest thing I ever did in my life. We lived separately for two years before I filed for divorce because I wasn't ready. At the same time, I didn't want him to move back home only to leave again, so we remained apart while trying to reconcile. I'm glad because it would have been twice as hard on the kids if he came home and left again.

If you're not ready to divorce him, then don't. But, I would caution you strongly on letting him move back in based solely on words and promises. It doesn't have to be this or that, black or white. Give it some time. Let him prove he means all the stuff he's saying. You have the rest of your lives to work on your marriage. What's a few months? In my case, I told my husband I needed six months to work on my own issues before I would consider discussing our marriage. He was free to work on recovery during that time, or whatever, his choice.

We actually started working on reconciliation after about eight months. Ultimately, it didn't work out, but I'm glad I had that time to work on myself. My life is infinitely better because of it.

Do you have a therapist? Mine saved my life.

L

dollydo

I believe that each and everyone on this board struggled with going no contact and not one of us takes divorce lightly. Those decisions are very difficult to make, and, even more difficult to follow through on.

I have asked you before...what are you doing for your recovery? Are you going to Alanon meetings?

Your posts all revolve around him and the fact that you have been together since your teenage years. For some reason, you are fixated on that.

Also what about the cheating? You seem to sweep that under the rug, there is a reason he keeps cheating on you, and, it is not related to his drinking. To me, it is totally a seperate issue, how is he addressing that?

Reading between the lines on your recent posts, to me, it is clear, you are taking him back, you believe his words. That is your decision, and, it is your life, only you can walk in your shoes.

My only concern is for your girls, they have been and will continue to be affected by living with an alcoholic.

You do not have to believe me, but, I lived it, and, it is fact not fiction.

I wish you the best, I hope that all your dreams come true!