GettingBy

Yeah, the drinking is bad news, and obviously the whole throat incident was the final straw... but our problems started long before that.

Our relationship, was, is, and probably always will be plagued by struggle for power and control. As I step away from the daily interactions, and take a look at myself... I see how my behavior (take charge, get it done, etc), left him feeling like a passenger instead of a partner. We stopped being an us, and "I" took over. My attitude, covertly and overtly, was "I did this", "my house" "my kids", etc... and that ate at our marriage. Now, just so you all don't think that I am taking all the blame... I'm not... but I am recognizing my role in the dance.

And it's not about who did what first, who caused this mess... we both had our parts... and I honestly don't know where it started, and don't think it matters. What matters is that we destroyed our marriage.

I took over and became Ms. Do It All... he initially was more than happy to comply... I got resentful, and copped an attitude... he got resentful, felt controlled, and pushed back to regain control/independence... I pushed more for my "way/will"... he pushed back more... anger grew, love diminished, as did respect and trust, the best interest of our marriage got pushed aside like yesterday's news. He dealt with it his way... shut down, stop talking, and start drinking. I dealt with it my way... get mad, demand more of "my way", become unreasonable and untolerant.


And the whole damn thing imploded in Delaware. Our marriage went horribly wrong.

My AH summed up his position last night... "Even IF you were right about the drinking, but you're NOT, I wouldn't stop drinking because I am just not going to let you control me or tell me what to do."

I said, "I see that, and I understand your position. We have been in a struggle for control for years, and neither of us won. And though you may not like my decision to divorce, it is what's best for "us". We've gone to far, and need to step away from each other. You need to get out on your own. Have control of your life, your money, make your own decisions - get your independence back. And I need to get out on my own and get back to focusing on controlling ME only."

I love my husband alot... I wish we hadn't destroyed our marriage.

Eight Ball

Hi Gettingby

I have accepted my part in my marriage 'dance' time and time again. I have soooo many relationship books on my shelf that I have read and re-read its not funny. I have been to a number of relationship counseling sessions too, with and without my AH.

I have spent 23yrs trying to change myself in the hope that our marriage would stop going through the ups and downs so often as it has. I kept telling myself that marriages was supposed to get easier not harder.

To this day, my AH is still claiming that our marriage is failing due to our lack of communication skills! Its difficult communicating with an alcoholic as we all know.

A lot of what you describe, and the fact that you recognise your own part, could easily be solved with some marriage counseling if you were with a 'normal' partner who was reasoning and reasonable. Again not so easy with an alcoholic.

I also feel that WE (AH and I) have managed to destroy our marriage between us, so I understand where you are coming from. Some of our 'game playing' has gotten pretty icky and is a bit like a snowball. I really had become as sick as him.

For example: my AH had a long time internet affair, this led to marriage counseling and us both agreeing that I could check up on his internet activity to gain back trust. A couple of years later he was checking up on me because I had checked up on him. What we were willing to do to each other, just got worse until I got to the point where I thought that 'destroyed' was a suitable term.

The good news for both you and I, is that we recognise our faults and have been willing to change ourselves or at the very least attempt too. Half the battle is recognising in the first place. I have changed my own life for the better (IMO) a lot in the past 18 months and look forward to continuing this trend. Unfortunately I dont think my AH is even capable of thinking this way, he just doesn't get it, and if he ever finds someone new, I can imagine that his own negative behavior will continue. One of my favourite mantras is 'nothing changes, if nothing changes'.

BobbyJ

I agree with Eight Ball...

Alcoholic marriage problems vs normal marriage problems

SO..."NOT" the same. Sometimes its hard to get that thru my head...

stella27

My situation was similar to what you descrive, GB. But I will tell you that I have been out of the marriage for nearly two years and have invested at least that many days and hours dissecting it.

I recognized the dynamics before we separated. And I did everything I could to keep him from feeling controlled. I backed off, I took care of me. I cried in private so that he couldn't claim I was trying to manipulate him, I took care of the kids all alone, I never said "no" when he told me he was going hunting (a euphemism for drinking outdoors with guns).

And you know what? It wasn't me. Because NOTHING changed. Nothing got better. My expectations of my husband and marriage just became unbearably and pathetically low. I don't even recognize that cocooned woman that I was when I backed off and stopped "controlling" because I wasn't controlling him. I was setting minimal standards for a home that contained three young children.

Yes, I engaged in a bad dynamic. Yes, there are things I could have done differently, but I will not apologize for trying to maintain a decent environment for children to live in. The fact that he claims that makes me controlling, well I am okay with that.

Maybe you aren't like me. Maybe you really wrestled and took an active part in destroying your marriage. But where alcohol is involved to the point where your AH says "you're wrong about my drinking and I refuse to quit", well, I can't see how YOU did that.

And THAT is the marriage-destroyer. the drinking and the attitude that he shouldn't have to change anything. even if it might save your marriage. That isn't you. That's HIM and that is alcoholism.

Tuffgirl

I agree with anvil...but I also have to question the patterns described by the majority of us here. I've been around for only 8 months or so, posting for 5. But I read and read again the same old song and dance. The patterns in a relationship plagued by addictions are so similar, so classic... I am reading others' living out the same life I've been living for 4 years.

Gettingby's description of the power struggle, the "control" issues, shoot...welcome to my marriage! And you know what? I wasn't controlling! I was trying to have a marriage - a normal marriage - and anything I did that was contrary to what he wanted or needed was controlling, manipulating, and passive-aggressive.

So my question today is not "did this happen?" but "did it happen because addicts have these characteristics? And that's why we all describe very similar experiences?"

Some relationships are not meant to be, aren't productive, and are toxic. This I understand. I've been married before. We were not meant to be. But what I experienced in my 4 years of being involved with an alcoholic is that there was only one person having a relationship and that was me. And as long as I "tried", I was perceived as all the classic words addicts describe us with. I had a bad marriage because my husband needed to have a bad marriage to justify his compulsion to drink. This situation had already happened before and would have happened with ANY woman he was involved with - not just me specifically.

GB - its awesome that you are identifying your role. Doing so helps us learn now so we don't repeat the same mistakes in future relationships. But be careful that you don't take on what isn't yours to begin with. Not once in any of your posts have I thought you were an overbearing dominant controller. You sound like a woman, a mother, trying to have a normal marriage and family - just like the rest of us here. I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting and striving for that.

GettingBy

Stella...

Thanks. You hit the nail on the head. That is EXACTLY the situation that happened in our house. The beginning years, I begged, pleaded, manipulated, controlled... I found Al-anon... and I owned my part. I didn't want to be controlling - so I focused on me, I became accomodating. I didn't nag, I didn't complain, I tried my hardest to very gently voice any issues... so as to not damage his ego/rock the boat. My AH is a big hunter too... and even up until this last year, I didn't gripe, not once. He came and went as he pleased... but I was overwhelmed with all that I had taken on.

I had lowered my expectations to reduce my dissappointment... and they got so damn low, I just couldn't take it anymore. I didn't handle those emotions in the most productive/healthy way. I got snippish, and condenscending - but I didn't cause the drinking. Nor did I do anything that warranted the physical/verbal abuse that I received.

Eightball -

You're very right - they are normal marriage issues, but we don't have a normal marriage - we have an alcoholic one, though AH does not want to agree on that. And I suppose I could have agreed to counseling, and spent another 3-4 years "working on me", waiting for the cycle to repeat itself...

Anvil -

I don't know... I think reflecting back on the dead marriage, and seeing my part in it, is a good thing. If I don't look at my own behavior and the role it played, I am doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes. The end of the marriage does not solve my problems... I get them all to myself as part of the divorce. I'm certainly not looking at this to try and analyze him and what I think he did wrong... that's not the point of my post. It really was just a brain dump of what I see as our "dance", and my role in it.

Alone22

This thread hits home (but most do). Of course we all have our part in why things are the way they are. I think the difference is we wanted things better, that is why we tried everything we could think of, while our A partners had/have a different agenda (to continue to drink, even if they don't see it). I for one slowly went crazy, so slowly it was hard for me to see what I had become. I became an uptight, controlling, unhappy wife because I was angry and hurt that everything I tried didn't work to solve our marital problems. In fact they got worse and worse. It took years for me to understand that I was not dealing with a normal marriage situation. Our problems felt somewhat normal, communication, power struggles, silly arguments, not feeling appreciated etc. They are issues two normal people can overcome if they really love each other and want a better marriage. When one partner is ill with alcoholism they simply can't get rational and reasonable. My AH can be that way some of the time, but his desire to drink becomes the dominate force which overrides all that is reasonable.

I think you are right that you need to see your part in why the marriage did not work out. I can tell you are not blaming yourself, but only understanding how things got to the point they did. It should help you to heal. I'd like to think by me understanding myself better it will help my healing process as well.

sunshine321

Wow, that was very familiar. And the question of "normal" vs. "alcoholic".

I ran into my XAB and didn't realize he was an alcoholic and began a relationship with him. I knew nothing about alcoholism except the sterotypes we hear about. Immediately I noticed strange things but everyone kept telling me what a great guy he was, how he'd do anything for you, great heart, etc. We went to middle and high school together and I'd never heard a negative thing about him. I believed all those people. When we began counseling because things were going downhill fast, I was expecting our child and really wanted to make it work. I remember the first counselor stating that as long as he was an active alcoholic, nothing would change. We only stayed with him a few months and he was right, nothing changed.

Chapter II was a second counselor, oddly an addiction specialist who also worked on marital issues. He also stated the same thing, that nothing would really get any better until he decided to take action and get sober. He was also the person responsible for getting me into Al-Anon to preserve my own sanity while living with an alcoholic. I remember thinking that I really wanted to know whether it was the alcoholism that made him the ogre he was or if you take it away, would he still be a ogre underneath. I stated it many times in our sessions that I wanted/needed to know if there was a wonderful person under the drink. Skip ahead 1 year and he eventually did go to out-patient rehab and got sober. We continued with the counselor for another year. I stayed because of hope. Or that I wanted to believe that he really was a good person capable of love and understanding if only . . . After all we had a daughter together, he was not going to just "go away." In the end, what I found out? Take away the alcohol and I still got an ogre, albiet a sober one. You win some, you lose some. What can I say? For me, it wasn't for a lack of trying or not giving 100%. We spent 3 out of our 4 years together in counseling. Didn't help us one bit. Thank you Dr. Mel for showing me the path to Al-Anon.

Peace,
Jen

RECF

Stella, your post was just beautiful. "Hunting - a euphemism for drinking outside with guns" Priceless!

In any case, GettingBy, I know what you mean about understanding all the parts we play in things, and maybe you had been controlling, but I agree with everyone else here, that is NOT what destroyed your marriage, it is NOT what caused him to drink.

The destruction of your marriage was caused by your trust being continually broken everytime you thought you had someone in your life fighting the good fight with you but again and again, he just failed to show up. THAT"S what destroyed your marriage. Love yourself now because you deserve it.

Carol Star

My doc said being married to an alcoholic was like having a shiny red racecar with no engine in it. We shouldn't beat ourselves up too much. Remember the Alanon 3 c's.....didn't causeit, can't control it, and can't cure it.

jamaicamecrazy

I often wonder if I unfairly blame the alcohol for our marriage being where it is today. My therapist had said that one of the things that would happen when we separated was that we could each see our own crazy out of context of our relationship. I became aware of my high expectations and trying to control even when I don't consider myself a controlling person. I have a way of making people feel that they are not meeting my standards. It is very difficult to overcome that. BUt at least I am aware. It was so good to hear some of these posts. Our marriage was not perfect but we did overcome many things because we were willing to work on them. I think there came a point when my husband was not willing to work on things anymore. All he wanted was to be able to do what he wanted when he wanted. Many- not all times, it involved alcohol. He became more irrational, defensive, hypersensitive. I think deep done he is filled with guilt. Being with me triggers that even more. Even when I tried to change he did not recognize the change. He was too busy holding on to past hurts. He was not willing to let go and work on himself. He likes himself the way he is.
I do not. I know I cannot continue to have a relationship with this person. I still grieve the man I love. He is no longer there.

sandrawg

Yeah, and no one can MAKE anyone drink. I don't care if your relationship was having problems, him resorting to drinking was not your responsibility. He obviously already had maladaptive coping skills in the beginning.

My exabf told me I was "controlling" when I just tried to impose simple boundaries for my own health and benefit. They love to use that--they wield around the "controlling" adjective like it's a major insult.

GettingBy

That seems to be the case with my AH. He has been adamant that he doesn't like to, and will not, talk about issues. His problem solving approach has typically been - listen to what I have to say, shut down for a few weeks, and get drunk.

He gets upset with me, bottles it up and never talks to me... So, I'm doing something that irritates him, but don't have a clue what... Only know that he's pissy with me. Yeah, so that's been going on for at least a year. Not exactly fair to me... And if I talk about things that are bothering me, I'm nagging and controlling... And never happy.


Ugh, and he wonders why I want out?!?! Sorry, being a bit snarky tonight.

LaTeeDa

I had a bit of an epiphany at work the other day, and this thread popped into my head.

Here's the story. I work in an atmosphere where my efforts are routinely devalued, my integrity questioned, and I am a scapegoat for people's fear and frustration. Part of it is due to the business I am in (IT) and part of it is the "culture" of the organization, including top management.

Anyway, in the past, I reacted to false accusations, insinuations about my incompetence, etc. with anger. If someone attacked me, I would attack back. Well, on Tuesday, it happened again. (seems to be every 6 months or so) But, this time, I didn't react. I calmly and professionally discounted the accusations and blame. Explained my position with knowledge and grace, and in the process left the person leveling the accusations looking like a reactionary ass. (which, by the way, she was, lol)

Anyway, as I contemplated this, I came to a realization. How I handle a situation makes a difference to me and my internal stress, but it makes no difference in the situation. I still work in an unsatisfactory atmosphere, and handling it with professionalism and grace does not change that. It makes less of a mess of my insides, but that's it. Unacceptable is still unacceptable no matter how much I "work on myself."

Only 19 months and 12 days till I'm eligible for retirement, but who's counting? Honestly, sometimes I don't think I will last that long.........

L

GettingBy

Awww LTD... that's Step 12 right there!!!!

As for the retirement... count away baby!!! I run marathons and swim & bike long distance... and what always helped me to endure, was counting and tracking my progress. Being a nerdy engineer, I'd even sit and calculate percent complete... seeing PROGRESS is a huge motivator!!

LaTeeDa

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the downfall of your marriage (and mine) was due to one partner's inability to face life without alcohol as a crutch. How we handle stuff (and like you, I didn't always handle it very well) doesn't change the underlying problem. Reacting to insanity with insanity only makes US insane. Reacting to insanity with sanity helps keep us from becoming insane, but doesn't change the underlying insanity. There is no cause-->effect relationship there.

L

GettingBy

Exactly LTD... and I believe that was the intent of Anvil's orignal post.

I played my part in the insanity, but even with recovery, I was never going to fix the underlying issue. Our marriage was just not meant to be.

JACKRUSSELLGIRL

He gets upset with me, bottles it up and never talks to me... So, I'm doing something that irritates him

GB- I find the same thing with my AH. I also find this with other men in my life too. Now i am not knocking men here, just trying to understand them. Do you think men tend to keep it in and not express things that bother them?

GettingBy

Hey JRG,

I have dated and am friends with some very mature men who are very secure and good communicators... my AH... is not one of them. I also know some women, my mother and sister brig two of them, who are lousy at communicating...

so, no, I dont think its gender base

sillysquirrel

Why is it that as the spouse of an alcoholic, we are viewed as being controlling??? I can't speak for anyone else here, but in my situation, I was forced to control because my husband was not able to. He was/is treated like a child because he acts like a child!

Do I want to be responsible for my children 24 hours a day 365 days a year? No....sometimes I need a break. But "R"AH is emotionally unable to care for them for more than an hour....the **** hits the fan and he loses it, they are crying, they want mommy.

Do I want to be responsible for every bill we have, every month?
No, I want my "R"AH to show some concern for the bills, show some interest in saving some money for a family vacation or our children's college fund. But he doesn't. If I don't do it, it doesn't get done.

Do I want to be in charge of all household/vehicle maintenance?
No, I don't. "R"AH should be able to change a furnace filter, water softener filter, septic tank filter, etc. He should be able to fill the propane tank for the grill, sharpen the blades on the lawnmower, change the oil on the vehicles, pick up his garbage in the yard/house, etc. But he doesn't. If I don't do it, (or "nag" him) it doesn't get done.

I could go on and on, but my point is.....if I don't take charge and take control.....it just doesn't get done. I think that as the spouse of an A, for some reason we are viewed as being controlling, but it is not necessarily an attribute we would have if we were with a normal, reasoning person.

GettingBy...I think you are taking more of the blame than you should. You were only controlling because you HAD to be. Who will steer the ship if you take your hands off of the wheel? In a normal relationship, your spouse will. In a relationship with an A, there is no one there to grab the wheel.