Need some insight on LMC's behavior
I AM CANADIAN
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Niagara Region, Canada
Posts: 2,578
its a reflection on the family when she does this...meaning...what you do, effects all of us in the family....
this is what i told my son about his behaviour...maybe start a file with feeling WORDS and FACES(what the word is on the face...happy face>a big grin...and a definiation beside it)...and start teaching her the FEELING WORDS..thats what i did...my kids are very verbal now with their own words (9&8)...it worked for me....and i even learned a few words to help me express more....
Just a thought
this is what i told my son about his behaviour...maybe start a file with feeling WORDS and FACES(what the word is on the face...happy face>a big grin...and a definiation beside it)...and start teaching her the FEELING WORDS..thats what i did...my kids are very verbal now with their own words (9&8)...it worked for me....and i even learned a few words to help me express more....
Just a thought
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 566
Hey coyote, first of all you're doing such a great job. LMC has no idea (yet) how very fortunate she is to have you. Just imagine if she didn't have you??!! (shudder...)
I'll just add my 2 cents based on my situation. My girls (now ages 15 and almost 13) are best friends to each other. However, when they were younger and would visit my exH's family they come home and were violent to each other: hitting, biting (!), yelling, generalized nastiness. This was unheard of when they were in the home environment with me. My exH's mom was raised by 2 alcoholics and I've noticed a few generations in that family of the first-born being the favored one. My eldest child, who is INCREDIBLY thoughtful and kind, would come home angry and antagonistic. My younger one would come home ready to break every rule there was, as if there was no hope for "making the grade", no matter what she did.
I was floored, absolutely floored, when I realized this pattern when they were about 5 and 7 years old. I began talking to them about "re-entry". They were able, over time, to identify that when they were with their grandparents they felt really good, would have a great time, but that shortly after leaving there the sad, angry feelings began to seep in. I understood, because I had been stumped by my own response in this regard when I was married to their father and we would do family gatherings with his side of the family.
I asked my kids to be mindful of their feelings, to express them appropriately and we came up with a plan: time alone in their bedrooms, crying, talking, journaling, doing crafts, asking for a hug, reading, snuggling with the cat/dog, etc. I told them that they could excuse themselves and go to a quiet place without explaining it to me or anyone unless they wanted to. The only requirement in all of this was that they couldn't take their angry feelings out on each other. I told them I trusted them to do their best to work out their feelings but if they couldn't maintain self-control and became aggressive then I would intervene in an effort to respond to the violence and assist them in re-gaining their control over themselves and their behavior. I didn't have the acting-out-in-school issue because I was homeschooling at the time, but I think it likely that I would have had that hurdle if it hadn't been for that.
The "behavior plan" worked. I still have "the talk" with them when they come back and seem like they're getting easily ruffled. I ask them to do a self-check, and remind them of "the plan".
It has gotten much easier for them, for me, for their relationships with each other and their world here. I think they've come to really appreciate that coming home (to my house) is where they can exhale in whatever ways they need to.
As for LMC's relationship with her mother, her mother is setting the tone. For now, perhaps you're taking some heat off of LMC because her mother is determined to pin responsibility on you. LMC will have years to deal with her mother and her conflicting feelings about Mom, and years to treasure all that you're doing to help her be a strong and independent young lady. What helps me through these difficult situations are deep breaths, one day at a time, and remembering the 3rd step!
Kudos~
posie
I'll just add my 2 cents based on my situation. My girls (now ages 15 and almost 13) are best friends to each other. However, when they were younger and would visit my exH's family they come home and were violent to each other: hitting, biting (!), yelling, generalized nastiness. This was unheard of when they were in the home environment with me. My exH's mom was raised by 2 alcoholics and I've noticed a few generations in that family of the first-born being the favored one. My eldest child, who is INCREDIBLY thoughtful and kind, would come home angry and antagonistic. My younger one would come home ready to break every rule there was, as if there was no hope for "making the grade", no matter what she did.
I was floored, absolutely floored, when I realized this pattern when they were about 5 and 7 years old. I began talking to them about "re-entry". They were able, over time, to identify that when they were with their grandparents they felt really good, would have a great time, but that shortly after leaving there the sad, angry feelings began to seep in. I understood, because I had been stumped by my own response in this regard when I was married to their father and we would do family gatherings with his side of the family.
I asked my kids to be mindful of their feelings, to express them appropriately and we came up with a plan: time alone in their bedrooms, crying, talking, journaling, doing crafts, asking for a hug, reading, snuggling with the cat/dog, etc. I told them that they could excuse themselves and go to a quiet place without explaining it to me or anyone unless they wanted to. The only requirement in all of this was that they couldn't take their angry feelings out on each other. I told them I trusted them to do their best to work out their feelings but if they couldn't maintain self-control and became aggressive then I would intervene in an effort to respond to the violence and assist them in re-gaining their control over themselves and their behavior. I didn't have the acting-out-in-school issue because I was homeschooling at the time, but I think it likely that I would have had that hurdle if it hadn't been for that.
The "behavior plan" worked. I still have "the talk" with them when they come back and seem like they're getting easily ruffled. I ask them to do a self-check, and remind them of "the plan".
It has gotten much easier for them, for me, for their relationships with each other and their world here. I think they've come to really appreciate that coming home (to my house) is where they can exhale in whatever ways they need to.
As for LMC's relationship with her mother, her mother is setting the tone. For now, perhaps you're taking some heat off of LMC because her mother is determined to pin responsibility on you. LMC will have years to deal with her mother and her conflicting feelings about Mom, and years to treasure all that you're doing to help her be a strong and independent young lady. What helps me through these difficult situations are deep breaths, one day at a time, and remembering the 3rd step!
Kudos~
posie
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,784
Thanks for the thread.
Recently I visited some family I hadn't seen in decades and they remembered how I was always angry when I visited them when being small (9 or 10 I think). Yes, of course I was angry I never saw my dad and when I did, I had to share him with a bunch of people. The same happened 20 years later. I never see him and when I do it is with many others!
I wish I had a parent helped me get those feelings out RE transitions. I remember how difficult they were, and my parents were not even alcoholics. I can only imagine how it is like for LMC.
I have so much anger that has been there more than 2 decades.
I am so happy LMC has you coyote so she doesn't end up like me hahaahah, you are surely saving her pain in the future asking questions and doing what you can do. I love the ideas of painting words then dissolving them into art!! I think I will do that exercise!! I needed that 20 years ago. But at least I get to do it now. Not sure if they will dissolve 100%. If they don't, I will go to the backyard and burn them. Burning and trashing stuff is very symbolic, a huge release. Sometimes I just paint a paper black!! and it is great feeling knowing those dark feeling are out there somewhere, no longer stored in my heart.
Thanks and all the best to coyote and coyotejr !!
Recently I visited some family I hadn't seen in decades and they remembered how I was always angry when I visited them when being small (9 or 10 I think). Yes, of course I was angry I never saw my dad and when I did, I had to share him with a bunch of people. The same happened 20 years later. I never see him and when I do it is with many others!
I wish I had a parent helped me get those feelings out RE transitions. I remember how difficult they were, and my parents were not even alcoholics. I can only imagine how it is like for LMC.
I have so much anger that has been there more than 2 decades.
I am so happy LMC has you coyote so she doesn't end up like me hahaahah, you are surely saving her pain in the future asking questions and doing what you can do. I love the ideas of painting words then dissolving them into art!! I think I will do that exercise!! I needed that 20 years ago. But at least I get to do it now. Not sure if they will dissolve 100%. If they don't, I will go to the backyard and burn them. Burning and trashing stuff is very symbolic, a huge release. Sometimes I just paint a paper black!! and it is great feeling knowing those dark feeling are out there somewhere, no longer stored in my heart.
Thanks and all the best to coyote and coyotejr !!
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,497
Coyote,
I am sure that someone has suggested this, but i will put it out there anyway. You probably already are doing this.
Do you sit down with her, when she has returned, and just kind of "open the door" to letting her talk about what is going on, how she feels, or what she thinks about things?
Of all the things I could wish for, I wish my parents, or even one, had let me talk about things. We often most fear the unspoken things. I dont know, maybe you could just ask how did it go? and listen to each thing she says. you may get clues to what she is feeling or maybe what most she is angry about. I think that talking about things helps so much , and if she does have a fear about any certain thing, and she can share it with you, it might make it not so scary, since she is not alone with it anymore.
I remember that when my kids were most upset about something, i'd just sit in their rooms with them , and wait for it to come out. and it usually would. I think it really helped them to talk about it.
I never had anyone to share any fears with. wish i had. guess i do now, here at sr-lol.
i am sure that this is so basic, and that most people already do this. but i also know that sometimes it is so hard to address some things. boy, parenting is the hardest job, in the whole world! got my grey hairs to prove it. gonna be totally white before it's over.
hugs
chicory
I am sure that someone has suggested this, but i will put it out there anyway. You probably already are doing this.
Do you sit down with her, when she has returned, and just kind of "open the door" to letting her talk about what is going on, how she feels, or what she thinks about things?
Of all the things I could wish for, I wish my parents, or even one, had let me talk about things. We often most fear the unspoken things. I dont know, maybe you could just ask how did it go? and listen to each thing she says. you may get clues to what she is feeling or maybe what most she is angry about. I think that talking about things helps so much , and if she does have a fear about any certain thing, and she can share it with you, it might make it not so scary, since she is not alone with it anymore.
I remember that when my kids were most upset about something, i'd just sit in their rooms with them , and wait for it to come out. and it usually would. I think it really helped them to talk about it.
I never had anyone to share any fears with. wish i had. guess i do now, here at sr-lol.
i am sure that this is so basic, and that most people already do this. but i also know that sometimes it is so hard to address some things. boy, parenting is the hardest job, in the whole world! got my grey hairs to prove it. gonna be totally white before it's over.
hugs
chicory
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Posts: 4,202
I never had anyone to share any fears with. wish i had. guess i do now, here at sr-lol.
Me too, chicory. I was terrible to my younger siblings. I was the favored one, the oldest and the most was expected out of me. But somehow, I always fell short, and since poop rolls downhill, the younger kids would get it from me.
I am so glad for SR. I can apologize to my brother Lonnie, in VietNam after serving in the Legion for being so hard on him. You know what he will say?
Beth, I love you.
Wait, sorry coyote, just hijacked your thread.
LMC is very lucky to have you and all the support she has at school. My middle son Joshua was given lots of special help when he was in grade school, at LMC's age.
He was rageful, and would brook no one crossing his boundaries.
Now, he is the calmest most thoughtful and most caring of my three children.
He was given tools to deal with his emotional disturbances.
When I was in school, you were just labeled as "troubled" and sent further back every year. My son is a genius.
Beth
To thine own self be true.
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Location: U.S.A.
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I tortured a kid or two in my youth. Was explosively violent like that (kicked a couple kids bad enough to make them cry), was downright mean, non-trusting of 99% of the people I came in contact with especially my peers. If you can afford it, I suggest getting her a little extra help learning how to identify and deal with her anger.
I got worse at about age 10. You probably know me well enough to know some of the issues I've had as an adult, especially with my anger. I can't tell you WHY I'm this way but I can tell you (1) I am SO glad you got her away from her alcoholic mother and (2) If I had had help when I was younger, I wonder if life would have been easier?
Talk to her about what happened, talk to her about the group therapy and how that is going, talk to her about when YOU get angry, but do it as a share. Let the school dole out the punishment but don't turn your back on the issue please. Might help to use this as an opportunity to turn LMC on to Higher Power. What about the story of Job? Do you have a kid's book of bible stories. (Assuming you are still doing the church thing). You can talk to her about right and wrong. Nobody ever told me it was wrong to kick someone in the face. Maybe I should have known, but sorry, I didn't. I wish somebody had told me.
Thank you for asking my opinion. Thank you for posting and sharing and being open-minded for LMC's well-being.
I got worse at about age 10. You probably know me well enough to know some of the issues I've had as an adult, especially with my anger. I can't tell you WHY I'm this way but I can tell you (1) I am SO glad you got her away from her alcoholic mother and (2) If I had had help when I was younger, I wonder if life would have been easier?
Talk to her about what happened, talk to her about the group therapy and how that is going, talk to her about when YOU get angry, but do it as a share. Let the school dole out the punishment but don't turn your back on the issue please. Might help to use this as an opportunity to turn LMC on to Higher Power. What about the story of Job? Do you have a kid's book of bible stories. (Assuming you are still doing the church thing). You can talk to her about right and wrong. Nobody ever told me it was wrong to kick someone in the face. Maybe I should have known, but sorry, I didn't. I wish somebody had told me.
Thank you for asking my opinion. Thank you for posting and sharing and being open-minded for LMC's well-being.
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,294
Originally Posted by chicory 
Do you sit down with her, when she has returned, and just kind of "open the door" to letting her talk about what is going on, how she feels, or what she thinks about things?
Of all the things I could wish for, I wish my parents, or even one, had let me talk about things. We often most fear the unspoken things. I dont know, maybe you could just ask how did it go? and listen to each thing she says. you may get clues to what she is feeling or maybe what most she is angry about. I think that talking about things helps so much , and if she does have a fear about any certain thing, and she can share it with you, it might make it not so scary, since she is not alone with it anymore.
Of all the things I could wish for, I wish my parents, or even one, had let me talk about things. We often most fear the unspoken things. I dont know, maybe you could just ask how did it go? and listen to each thing she says. you may get clues to what she is feeling or maybe what most she is angry about. I think that talking about things helps so much , and if she does have a fear about any certain thing, and she can share it with you, it might make it not so scary, since she is not alone with it anymore.
Originally Posted by wicked
LMC is very lucky to have you and all the support she has at school. My middle son Joshua was given lots of special help when he was in grade school, at LMC's age.
He was rageful, and would brook no one crossing his boundaries.
Now, he is the calmest most thoughtful and most caring of my three children.
He was given tools to deal with his emotional disturbances.
He was rageful, and would brook no one crossing his boundaries.
Now, he is the calmest most thoughtful and most caring of my three children.
He was given tools to deal with his emotional disturbances.
I'd add one more thought: if you can find a mechanism to infuse the transitional times with comfort, this will also be key. It can be a comfort activity, comfort object, or be creative. The point is, make that transitional time a time she looks forward to, not dreads, a time she feels IN control, not OUT of control, a time that helps her get her sea legs, not a time that pulls the rug out from under her feet.
I'd also like to say that in my mind you represent some of the best of fatherhood, Coyote. Against substantial bias, and against this raging monster of addiction, you are tossed in the storm, but courageusly breaking new trail, ever with your daughter's hand in yours. The difference you are making in her future is incalculable, but also the example you display for hundreds, perhaps thousands of readers of these posts is so very powerful. These readers, especially men facing loved ones with addiction, and fathers, can use your experience to create road maps for themselves to help them to navigate. That is powerful stuff.
Sending encouragement,
CLMI
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Originally Posted by catlovermi
I'd also like to say that in my mind you represent some of the best of fatherhood, Coyote. Against substantial bias, and against this raging monster of addiction, you are tossed in the storm, but courageusly breaking new trail, ever with your daughter's hand in yours. The difference you are making in her future is incalculable, but also the example you display for hundreds, perhaps thousands of readers of these posts is so very powerful. These readers, especially men facing loved ones with addiction, and fathers, can use your experience to create road maps for themselves to help them to navigate. That is powerful stuff.
Sending encouragement,
CLMI
Sending encouragement,
CLMI
Awakening
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beautiful Texas hillcountry
Posts: 1,272
Originally Posted by catlovermi
I'd also like to say that in my mind you represent some of the best of fatherhood, Coyote. Against substantial bias, and against this raging monster of addiction, you are tossed in the storm, but courageusly breaking new trail, ever with your daughter's hand in yours. The difference you are making in her future is incalculable, but also the example you display for hundreds, perhaps thousands of readers of these posts is so very powerful. These readers, especially men facing loved ones with addiction, and fathers, can use your experience to create road maps for themselves to help them to navigate. That is powerful stuff.
Sending encouragement,
CLMI
Sending encouragement,
CLMI
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
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OK, so you do something like make a protocol for her transitions, at least the ones from THERE (mom's environment) to YOU (the ones the other direction you have no control over, although you can also design send off protocols to help get her ready). You ENGINEER the transition. For example, you might institute intermediate steps such as:
As soon as she is physically back to you, you have a defined activity that happens every time this transition happens. This has to be chosen to mesh with her needs and temperament. If she's a chatter who needs to debrief, them something like every time you have a meeting at McDonalds to talk through the transition block over ice cream sunday/coffee. If she's one who needs quiet/solitude to transition, then maybe you get her an MP3 player and help her choose a play list, and have her listen to a 30 minute play list of calming songs, alone in her room, every time, as soon as she gets home. If she needs a physical wind-down, then maybe you take a walk, or have a craft activity. The point is, you find something that you do EVERY time, for, say, 30-60 minutes - that first chunk of time coming back home.
This is now a CONSTANT, as it is now the same, everytime. It becomes a habit, a rhythm, etc. As such, it helps reduce stress. She doesn't have to guess what she will be doing, that first hour. She knows it will not be stressful. This BUYS TIME, for her to calm her nerves, doing whatever it is, this first hour. Next, you might choose another block of time activity, or perhaps she only needs one transitional block. But you ENGINEER a protocol that is defined, stress reducing, etc. They do these same things with little children who show what is called adjustment disorder. It helps define exactly how a transition will go, and helps reduce the stress and anxiety of a transition.
As soon as she is physically back to you, you have a defined activity that happens every time this transition happens. This has to be chosen to mesh with her needs and temperament. If she's a chatter who needs to debrief, them something like every time you have a meeting at McDonalds to talk through the transition block over ice cream sunday/coffee. If she's one who needs quiet/solitude to transition, then maybe you get her an MP3 player and help her choose a play list, and have her listen to a 30 minute play list of calming songs, alone in her room, every time, as soon as she gets home. If she needs a physical wind-down, then maybe you take a walk, or have a craft activity. The point is, you find something that you do EVERY time, for, say, 30-60 minutes - that first chunk of time coming back home.
This is now a CONSTANT, as it is now the same, everytime. It becomes a habit, a rhythm, etc. As such, it helps reduce stress. She doesn't have to guess what she will be doing, that first hour. She knows it will not be stressful. This BUYS TIME, for her to calm her nerves, doing whatever it is, this first hour. Next, you might choose another block of time activity, or perhaps she only needs one transitional block. But you ENGINEER a protocol that is defined, stress reducing, etc. They do these same things with little children who show what is called adjustment disorder. It helps define exactly how a transition will go, and helps reduce the stress and anxiety of a transition.
I'm also thinking that there's way too little understanding in the school system for what children of alcoholics go through. I've had issues with my kids' schools (my youngest one is 9, too). Unless you have an "established diagnosis" for a kid, it's hard to get any extra help or even understanding. (And even when you do, it's a chore and a half...).
My 9-y-o is The Codie. She's sweet and loving to everyone (except me, I get the brunt of it, and that's OK, I know that's where she decompresses). My 12-y-o is the one who reacts loudly and obnoxiously. Now, zero-tolerance policy for violence is a good thought. It is. But if LMC or my 12-y-o had an official combination of letters or some Latin-sounding word attached to them by a professional, the school would be required to work with them and provide services. As it is, we're pretty much on our own as single/sober parents. And that's a HUGE load to carry.
So if you don't feel like you're doing it perfectly every moment of every day -- give yourself some grace. Sounds to me like you're doing a great job.
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I'm coming late to the party here.. you've gotten great advice. I can only reiterate the advice to just let her be and express herself. I remember once when my oldest son was acting out (he was 8 at the time), and the teachers were calling me and telling me how he was distracting the class, and so out of frustration, I just asked him, "J, is there anything that's making you mad or sad?"
And he just burst out crying and said "We're moving to New Jersey and I'm going to have to learn a different language!" (we were moving from upstate NY--he never did learn to speak "Soprano" LOL)
I think it's more difficult to get children to talk openly when they're subconsciously afraid of betraying the other parent, but, as chicory said, just open the door and make her feel as safe as possible--which you are already doing.
I have a feeling this is a transient thing, and as others have said, she is in the best possible place with a sane and loving dad.
And he just burst out crying and said "We're moving to New Jersey and I'm going to have to learn a different language!" (we were moving from upstate NY--he never did learn to speak "Soprano" LOL)
I think it's more difficult to get children to talk openly when they're subconsciously afraid of betraying the other parent, but, as chicory said, just open the door and make her feel as safe as possible--which you are already doing.
I have a feeling this is a transient thing, and as others have said, she is in the best possible place with a sane and loving dad.
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I think it's more difficult to get children to talk openly when they're subconsciously afraid of betraying the other parent
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When I came home from my dad's place...
...I always acted out too. For me it's because I was so pissed at my mom for making me go. As a child I was powerless in it, as was my mom because the law is the law. I didn't really understand that, and it didn't make me any less pissed off. It always took awhile for my joy in being home with my mom to overwrite my anger at being sent to my father's (felt like abandonment to me).
While mom had to deal with me acting out, it really wasn't about her at all. I just didn't know what to do with my feelings, or even understand them, so it came out in troublemaking and fighting.
Thank God my daughter's bio-dad couldn't handle taking her. I got to keep her all the time which, I can't believe I'm saying this as nothing would make both of us happier than a weekend away from each other at this point, was a blessing.
I hope this helps.
Good luck with LMC my friend.
Cyranoak
While mom had to deal with me acting out, it really wasn't about her at all. I just didn't know what to do with my feelings, or even understand them, so it came out in troublemaking and fighting.
Thank God my daughter's bio-dad couldn't handle taking her. I got to keep her all the time which, I can't believe I'm saying this as nothing would make both of us happier than a weekend away from each other at this point, was a blessing.
I hope this helps.
Good luck with LMC my friend.
Cyranoak
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Originally Posted by lillamy
Absolutely. And I also think it's difficult to get children to talk openly when they've learned to assess what people want to hear before they open their mouths. Which I think most if not all children of alcoholics have.
Awakening
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The update is that LMC ended up getting 2 days without recess, which seemed to me kind of "getting off easy" in a way. But really, the consequences per the school are "none of my business".
When she got home I told her she'd really "gotten lucky". She was walking around all smug and frankly I didn't like the whole smart aleck attitude, but kept it to myself. More was revealed.
The next day we went up to her classroom after hours to get something and her teacher was there and said she was about to call me about the behavior that day. Not good. At this point the "tude" as I call it was too much for me and we went into "lock down mode", which is dinner, bath, bed, with only reading allowed till bedtime. Basically sent to bed early, every kids worst nightmare.
LMC was already on "no TV" restriction from dropping to a "C" in behavior from the week before, that's a standing rule at our house. She was looking at a second "C" this week because of poor behavior, but managed to pull it out on Friday when 1 of her "bad marks" went away as a misunderstanding with another teacher was cleared up.
Seems that "lock down" got her attention and my child minus the "tude" was returned to me Friday. Thanks HP.
BTW, lock down is imposed with love and understanding, kind of a "man this really sucks and I'm sorry it's come to this" thing.
Thanks again everybody.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
When she got home I told her she'd really "gotten lucky". She was walking around all smug and frankly I didn't like the whole smart aleck attitude, but kept it to myself. More was revealed.
The next day we went up to her classroom after hours to get something and her teacher was there and said she was about to call me about the behavior that day. Not good. At this point the "tude" as I call it was too much for me and we went into "lock down mode", which is dinner, bath, bed, with only reading allowed till bedtime. Basically sent to bed early, every kids worst nightmare.
LMC was already on "no TV" restriction from dropping to a "C" in behavior from the week before, that's a standing rule at our house. She was looking at a second "C" this week because of poor behavior, but managed to pull it out on Friday when 1 of her "bad marks" went away as a misunderstanding with another teacher was cleared up.
Seems that "lock down" got her attention and my child minus the "tude" was returned to me Friday. Thanks HP.
BTW, lock down is imposed with love and understanding, kind of a "man this really sucks and I'm sorry it's come to this" thing.
Thanks again everybody.
Thanks and God bless us all,
Coyote
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