Jadmack25

Wife, I do understand you wanting to have a child, a normal desire.

Reading your post, I fear that you already have one....YOUR HUSBAND.

From experience, and stories from folks here on SR, plus Alanon, I think you are going to have your hands full in dealing with your husband's increasing alcohol problems.

I suggest you read as many posts here as you can bear to, and maybe go to a few Alanon meetings before you decide whether you can take the great responsibility of bringing a baby into your life. A life that may very easily NOT be the sort of one you imagined or would want for that child or for yourself.

I pray you give very serious thought to this desire for a child.

God bless

Thumper

I was very much in the same position as you years ago. I can't begin to explain how children change everything. Things that did not matter before, do now. Things that were not important before, are now. Things are different. Children profoundly affect your world and the decisions you make. What you choose to live with is not necessarily what you may choose for a child. Alcoholism progresses. Do not give up your financial security if you are married to an alcoholic.

I'll echo the others and say, hold off on the baby until you have this all thoroughly sorted out because if you feel like it is complicated now, it will be complicated times 1000 after having a baby.

MissFixit

Hi,

I too wanted children with my exabf. We were to be married this past spring and planned to try for children this fall. It breaks my heart and depresses me to think that that is not what we are doing now. He married anoter woman who enables his drinking and they are spiraling down.

Well, after months of sadness and anger I realize that it was the BEST thing in the world to not marry him and NOT have babies with him. He is an active A and getting worse. Our kids would have had a life of alcoholism and misery. I see that NOW only after a year apart from him. It was for the best.

I too and in my 30's and would like to be a stay at home mom, but he isn't the one to do it with. I love my future children (haven't given up hope) too much to have them endure a father like that. Starting from scratch is scary, but sentencing kids to a psychologically damaging life would be selfish on my part.

Alcoholism changes people. He might be nice now, but after years of drinking his mind will change. I didn't believe it until it happened to L. It was devastating, but you do not have to sentence yourself to his illness.

Hugs

FindingPeace1

Thank you so much for taking the time with me. I appreciate all your perspectives. Those of you that say if I keep looking I will find more of the dark side, I disagree. Right now he is the partner I want in most ways. He is present, responsible, kind, etc. etc.
But I DO hear your concern that alcoholism is progressive. I hear that, and yes, that is why I read the red flags list. Obviously, I am concerned. I am here. I am trying to be wise. If he were abusive or all the yucky other things I read about, I would go. Lying is more gray. It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. Hiding, even more gray...but obviously unhealthy. I guess I have written it off to "nobody is perfect".
Before I got married I swore lying was on the deal breaker list. Then you get married and you work with what you have...
I'm not just going to walk out, obviously, and that is the last thing I want. I have also heard a number of you say confronting him is useless. It seems my choices are a)leave b) confront c)accept. I have tried to accept, but its not working. I won't just walk out, so that leaves me with addressing it. Any suggestions on HOW? I think if I do an ultimatum (seems like a bad idea) he will further hide it. It seems gentle communication is the way to go. Any more suggestions? ('cuz this is scary territory! I would especially like to hear from the alcoholics or those that did a successful intervention) The hard part is he is so great, there is not a lot to point to when I do address it.
- health concerns
- lying/hiding/sneaking
Would you recommend bringing in family or someone from AA to lead it?
Any ideas?
Thanks and hugs to all of you.

Cucumber2Pickle

I say the same thing about my boyfriend "Things are so great...except the drinking' and the drinking can cause more problems slowly over time. Think carefully about having a child with him - addiction can be genetic - would you want to pass that on to your child? What if things slowly get worse and you have to leave and take your child with you - is that what you want? My boyfriend was the same way for so long. He would drink a LOT but everything else was ok - I told my friends things were perfect - but when he would drink and i told them about that - those stories were never good. All i was doing was protecting him when I said everything was great - bc they really wernt and since then (for me anyway) things have got MUCH worse. If things are that geat then consider talking him into going to AA. If you do have a child with him - dont you want them to have a healthy father to be with them for a long time? And not a sick father who may leave them early?

NYC_Chick

My xabf came clean that he was drinking a pint of whiskey a night. I demands he go to aa. He lied and continued to drink. Most do, so be prepared for him to chose alcohol over you. As for me, I would voice my concerns, but I almost guarantee that if you do and continue to do it, the sweet person you see mow will turn into a miserable monster in no time. He's great now because you are silent.

There was another member here who's husband was on the dhow intervention. If you can find the old episode on the web, you'll see how much he "loves" his child. If I remember right, he went to rehab for 6 months, then relapsed. She has not posted since that I k ow of.

littlebluedog

Welcome wife.

Jmho, he might have a problem. Do you think he would be receptive if you suggested getting help? In my personal experience, AA has saved my life.

He has to want it though, and remember that if he refuses, it has nothing to do with love. I love my husband and child with all my heart, but all the love in the world would have never gotten me sober. I had to want it.

My heart goes out to you and I'll say a prayer for you and yours.

honoryourself

Wife-- Have you spoken to him at all about the bottles / drinking yet? If you haven't confronted him at all, then I'm sure you will want / need to do that at some point, yes.

However, if he is an alcoholic, then don't expect the conversation to be fruitful by any respects. My husband always drank a lot but I didn't think it was a problem--just our circumstances. When circumstances changed and he kept drinking lots on week nights and then at odd times of the day, starting early, etc., I started to get concerned. It cost a lot of money. It was bad for his health. I too want to have children and I know he does too.

I started bringing up his drinking gently, because I didn't consider him an alcoholic or anything. I said I was concerned for his health because of the amount he was drinking and that if we were going to have kids, this was an issue for me. He COMPLETELY blew me off. As gently as I brought it up, with something I knew he cared about (children) as a major factor, he immediately got furious and defensive. He denied that his drinking was a problem at all. He got angry enough to just end the conversation lest I want a huge blow up. His best excuse was "I feel fine. I'm not worried about it." How childish is that? How selfish? Other times I tried to address the fact that he was behaving immaturely with regards to his health and it was selfish.. seeing as he was only caring about how he felt and not worrying about being there to provide for his wife and child if he were to get liver disease or lung cancer from smoking.

I let it all go. I couldn't win any conversation with him. I love my husband too, and I want things to work. I've said many of the same things you've said-- I made a choice, I love the bad with the good, etc etc. The more I read and learn, the more I can evaluate myself and you really ought to do the same for yourself. Read these forums, post a bunch if you want, read the stickies, read about alcoholism, read about codependency. I made so many excuses for my husband over and over again, saying he was going through a tough time, because of x y or z. He never did anything horrible, he just drank a lot and refused to discuss it or cut back.
But his moods got worse over just a year, the emotional abuse and jealousy and manipulation and lying got worse. He'd hide bottles sometimes, but mostly he'd lie that he had friends over who'd had a few beers when really no one came over. It was a way to hide that he was drinking 4 x the amount.

It's hurtful to be lied to. No matter how lovely your husband is, he is lying and hiding and denying something. As much as you should love him for the great things, you should be sure to recognize the bad things. In my mind a person is only as great as they want to be--if someone doesn't want to get help or be a better person, and what they are doing is not okay with you, then you really need to take a hard look at the situation again.

I love my husband too, and I want everything for us. But it's hard, and it's frustrating, and it's hurtful in a lot of ways, because the good times tease you that the bad times can be dealt with. But the bad gets bigger and the good gets smaller. I put my foot down, and my husband has a chance to decide what's important to him now.

Talk to your husband, but don't expect any miracles. The first thing an alcoholic will do is either deny the problem or say that they will change, just to keep you hanging on, but then hide it better.

Please keep reading the boards, and I *HIGHLY* recommend going to a few Al-Anon meetings if you can find them, even if you aren't sure if your husband is an Alcoholic and aren't ready to label him. It will help you get a feel for where you stand.

I thought my husband was so great too, and I thought he was social, but we've lived here for over 2 years now and he hasn't made many friends. He has lots of stories from his past of how people betrayed him or ripped him off, and why he doesn't trust people. I felt bad for him but now I see things differently. He doesn't let anyone in, and he doesn't foster good relationships.. he does what he's supposed to mostly, but he has this sense of entitlement and if he doesn't want to do something he won't. Friendships take give and take. So do relationships with family members and he has a lot of issues with his family too.
The jealousy has gotten really annoying. I'm a good person and have been loyal and faithful and supportive of him. In return I've had the 3rd degree every time I'm without him. He tells me "you should go out with your friends" but then afterwards he makes me feel bad about it by sulking or other passive aggressive behavior. I'm supposed to be HAPPY because he LET me go out and encouraged me, but really he wanted me to feel bad about it because he's sulking, asking a million questions, cirticising how much I spent or the behavior of one of my friends, etc etc. That was emotionally abusive and since I didn't know it at the time, I bought it all, internalized it and started to feel worse about myself.

A healthy socialized person doesn't drink all day at work, has friends, knows how to build strong relationships with others as WELL as his wife, and does not count on the people around him to make him happy or whole (I'm guilty of this last one). I know you love him and feel he's a great guy and all of this. But it's so much better to be with an adult than a child, and it seems the drinking turns men in to children.

Good luck, and please get yourself some books/counseling/groups or whatever it is, just keep coming back to the boards. It helps!

TakingCharge999

Hello wife!

You stated:

Why am I considering kids with him? Because I love him. Because he is a good and kind man that has a problem. Because, so far, it doesn't impact me (other than my worry). Because he loves me. Because I am not 20. I am almost 36 and I can't wait for him to "work it out" to have kids. Because I chose him, good and bad.

When you say you can't wait for him to work it out, does that mean you are willing to have a baby with him, then leave him? can you take a look to the ACOA forum and see what is in store for your child with an alcoholic father? if he is absent as a partner he will be absent as a father too. And you don't know until when. Are you aware he may never change?

You also said you chose him good or bad. How bad is bad for you? Where is the boundary? When he insults you? When he lies to you about where he was? When you find hidden bottle #356? When he hits you? When he hits his baby? I am not saying all this will happen... this is an honest question. What are your dealbreakers, wife? You do not have to answer here... just some food for thought....

All the best, you are on my thoughts and prayers.

FindingPeace1

cucumber - you said that you said things were great, but they really weren't. How were they not? I think some of you think if I really look, I will see that he is abusive or something, but he's not.

Little blue dog - your little smiley, wavy guy made me smile. And, yes. It is clearly a problem. He will NOT be receptive to help. He doesn't like groups. He doesn't like being "forced" to share feelings. He doesn't like feeling vulnerable.

honor yourself - so you gave him an ultimatum? How did it go? what happened? I am ready to label him! He isn't ready to accept it, but I am.

Here's where I think I am right now. I know I can't change him, I can't change him, I can't change him. Ugh. LOL! So I will say I choose not to try and get pregnant (that sounds insane since that is SO MUCH what I want) until I feel he is willing to get his drinking addressed, ie. a) rehab b) aa or other similar org or c)counseling to address this. He can do what he will. I am not ready to say I would leave or have that be the what if. We'll see where that goes. Defensive and shut down, undoubtedly. I have to decide how long I will give him to think it over before I say I am tired of being in a relationship where no kids is possible. (what alternative universe have I dropped into??)
Taking charge - good question. I need to figure that out. He isn't absent. He isn't abusive. He doesn't hit me. He's present and loving and gentle. AND he lies and sneaks and hides and drinks. I recognize that may change (this is a new one - this idea of alcoholism as a progressive disease. I am really digesting that). So I am open to to (ugly) possibility that he will get... not fabulous. Fine. I accept.
Abuse, verbal or physical is a deal breaker.
Absenteeism, deal breaker.
Lying? I guess it has been NOT a deal breaker and I am reconsidering.
Self-abuse (with alcohol) never thought about it as a deal breaker. I am feeling it out.
Keep making me think. This is the most I have ever dealt with this. You're all helping!!

FindingPeace1

One more thing...
Am I aware he may never change? yes.
Am I willing to have a baby and leave him? If he got abusive, yes. That's not the plan or anything, but I would.
It would be easier if he WAS abusive. It would be simpler. But he's a good man with a problem. I am going to try to ride it out with him, with the caveat that I have limits. I am going to address it, though. And set boundaries. Which is new. And hard.
I am going to the nearest Alanon ( 2 hours away) on Monday.
I am journaling.
I am self-exploring.
I am reading lots of posts.
I am crying and resting and self-nurturing.
Thanks for all your support. I wouldn't be on this journey without you all.

catlovermi

OK, well here's my two cents.

Addicts/alcoholics become masters of spinning themselves into the fantasy mate... for a while.

Why else would somebody have such an incentive to remain with them? They learn to put on the behaviors and front that will keep you.

But it's a smokescreen to enable them to keep up their addiction, behind the scenes.

Here's a reality check. If they are TRULY that fabulous, then challenging their addiction won't turn them into a moody, irritable, withdrawn, blaming, sour person. Because they are truly fabulous. But if challenging their addiction does have this effect, then you know they are spending energy keeping up the front, and don't really want to uncloak - that the fabulousness is costing them energy, and they need their fix to have the energy to put up that front. As soon as you stress the system by challenging the addiction, the fabulousness disappears, in an addict. And even if you don't challenge it, they will only be able to hold up that Mr. Wonderful front so long, until their disease progresses beyond their ability to hold the front, which ALWAYS happens if they do not decide to do WHATEVER IT TAKES to break their addiction.

So here's where YOU get a reality check. You already know what a challenge to his addiction would look like. Are you willing to see what that means, in terms of who he really is, and what he's really like? Just how fabulous is he, when you take his addictive substance away?

To keep Mr. Fabulous, you will have to let the addiction grow, until it all falls apart.

And if he's LYING, HIDING, and DECEIVING and AVOIDING, then he IS NOT PRESENT, regardless of what you are trying to convince yourself. He has his reality, which is he wants to drink more and more, and your have yours, which is you want him to be that Mr. Fabulous, and forget about that little gorilla on his back. His thinking is actually more reality-based than yours, ironic, huh?

CLMI

NYC_Chick

Wife: I'm happy you are still with us. It's very hard to open your eyes an you are certainly doing that!

I used to wish xabf would hit me, which would have made it much easier to leave! And you don't have to leave if you don't want to. Just keep thinking and keep your eyes open. Hugs!

cassandra2

Congrats on making a healthy decision.

No one here is telling you that the best decision is to leave your husband. Only you can decide that. I think that by going to Ala-non you will find that there are many people that chose to stay with their alcoholic/addict spouse but at the same time they learn the lessons and prinicples taught through ala-non and daily practice them.

Boundaries are good. Atleast you know that if things got that bad you know when you have to save yourself. We can only change ourselves and no one else. As easy as that is said it is much harder to practice that. Its much harder to stay on our own side of the street.

Keep posting and reading...

FindingPeace1

catlover - that was a mindblower. straight up. you are totally right about all the energy put in to keeping up the front. My only concern is most of you don't seem to believe he can be truly good and sweet and kind and addicted. Like he has to be a bad egg since he is a drinker. Can't he be a good man with a bad problem? It doesn't take away his addiction or lack of control or risk of progressing downhill or any of that. Like the alcoholism is automatically a mask for his EEVVIILL self. I think he is a scared, sad person that FEARS he is no good. That uses alcohol to cover his fear and loneliness. That gets defensive because he FEARS if I saw the real him I would not like it. I used to feel that way, too, but didn't drink because of it. My fear (and my own teenage lying and sneaking and hiding) wasn't due to my own inherent badness and I don't think his is either. It doesn't make it okay. It just doesn't make him secretly evil, either. Does that make sense? Comments?

FindingPeace1

And you're right. He's obviously not present emotionally. I give you that. I meant he was physically present. And very present to me when I am sharing. But he has a lot of gunk stored up in there emotionally that he is NOT dealing with. You're right about that. He desperately wants to be the someone in his head. He has shadow work to do. But, I recognize, that's his row to hoe, not mine.
I will make the best choices for me and love him for what he is and is not. I just don't want to demonize him. I want to see him for his faults and strengths as a human being.

hello-kitty

I believe he can be good and sweet. Why else would you be with him? For me, sometimes good and sweet wasn't enough to hold the relationship together. I wanted a relationship with a whole man who could accept responsibility and deal with reality with out drowning out his feelings with drugs and alcohol. But boy oh boy could my ex be really sweet... unfortunately for him and me, when he was bad he was horrible.

Say things did get really bad and the situation became unacceptable to you, do you have enough money set aside so that you could leave? What if you have a baby? Where would you go? How would you support yourself and the baby? It's always good to have a worst case scenario plan...

Not saying that you should. Just saying that leaving is never easy, especially when there is a child involved. Then you move into the realm of "my child deserves to have a relationship with his father..." and so on and so forth. It just gets even more muddled.

It's all about boundaries. Right now it sounds like lying, manipulating and hiding are within your acceptable behaviors boundaries (or you are not prepared to deal with it yet). And thats ok. As long as you are ok with it.

He may change. He may never change. It's not about him changing. Life decisions shouldn't hinge on the fact that someone may or may not do something. It's about us accepting that the ways things are may never change and then changing what we can - which is us.

We learn to be comfortable no matter what path we choose in life - whether we stay in a relationship, or leave a relationship, whether our spouses are alcoholics, addicts, in recovery or not in recovery. It's about inner peace and acceptance.

Thumper

It makes total sense.

I don't think my husband is evil. I believe him to be a kind, gentle, loving man. I think he loves me and I know he loves his children. He had a very sad childhood. He grew up with an alcoholic father that died when he was a teenager. His mother was consumed with managing her family and her alcoholic husband and just sort of ignored him. He is lonely. He is married to a woman (me) that finds it very hard to give and receive love and trust and that has been magnified to an extremely unhealthy level by living with an alcoholic for years. Until very recently I didn't even argue with my husband. We almost always agreed. We have similar philosophy's and values. Neither of us has ever cheated. He has never been physically abusive and until recently (when I started to rock the boat) he'd never been verbally or emotionally abusive.

However, he is still an alcoholic. Life is so very unpredictable but the one and only thing I can predict with 100% certainty is that alcohol comes first. It comes before me, before the children, before anything else. Alcohol wins the war. Always. It didn't matter that we always agreed because he followed through on nothing. That is true for my husband and it will be true for yours until he decides to quit drinking and enter recovery. It is true of every single alcoholic because they do not control their drinking, the drinking controls them.

For many years I dealt with my husband based on our past, our shared dreams for the future, what he said and promised, my fantasies of how I wanted my life to be, my fear of the future, or just because I selfishly wanted something. I thought I could make my life the way I wanted through sheer will and determination. Not so. I can't control my husband no matter how willful and dedicated I am. I do not know how to control my life living with my husband. He can't live up to his words and promises and our shared dreams will never be realized because alcohol is in control and alcohol only makes one promise - to consume and destroy every one in its path.

So the challenge is to make your decisions based on the reality. You must really really believe that you have no control or power over him or his drinking - and that neither does he. You must believe it in your bones and you must make decisions based on that and the reality of his *actions* and his *behaviors* not his words or promises and not your dreams/fantasies.

ETA: I don't want it to seem like my post was trying to convince you of a specific decision. It was just about how to go about laying a foundation to make good decisions for yourself.

catlovermi

I don't think most of us think of our addicts as evil underneath. But neither are they the people that their fronts paint.

I think a lot of us came to the place where we realized our addicts were like children in a lot of ways - arrested development with childlike coping skills (or lack thereof of adult coping skills, in other words). This doesn't make them evil underneath their addiction(s). But it does make them deficient in basic maturity, adult coping skills, adult relationship skills, etc.

We KNOW you likely have a sweet, loving husband. We've seen this in our addicts. But then we've gone on to realize just the depths of deficits in that same person, that they become dependent on a substance as their coping mechanism, and later chemically dependent as well on that substance. But if you back all the way up to why they started the substance in the first place, you see them differently than the Mr. Fabulous version. Mr. Fabulous isn't real; he's a magical thinking version we hold of him.

CLMI

Thumper

Truer words were never spoken.