hiding

Hi Hap.

Speaking from my own experience I agree with your doubts that treating the PTSD will solve the problem with your wife's drinking. As I understand it, the treatment she's getting does work well for PTSD (a friend of mine was treated the same way). What bothers me is what happens the next time something goes wrong in her life. Treating the PTSD might only be taking away her existing reason to drink.

From the age of 14 I binge drank as an outlet for grief, pain and anger for a long time (over 10 years). It often came out in the kind of angry drinking binges you're talking about if there was someone else around, especially if it was someone who I held responsible in some way (fairly or unfairly). Drink could help me forget my pain or 'give me the strength' to say things I was bottling up. Only, I never said anything constructive when I was in that state. Right now, I rarely drink and drink 'sensibly' when I do but that is only because I have dealt with the grief that was crippling me before and am in a better place. I was raised to keep everything inside and that drink was the only answer to problems. Plus there is alcoholism on both sides of the family. I know it's only a matter of time before something happens that is so painful that I fall into a bottle, which one reason why I'm here trying to work through my problems.

It sounds to me like the therapist is only addressing the problem in the short term. If he takes away the pain from her past, that doesn't necessarily give her healthy strategies for the inevitable pain and stress that lie in her future. That's the thing I'd be asking him if I was in your shoes. At what point is he going to deal with the fact that drinking is a coping mechanism for her?

Hope that helps.

jaguarpcb

Hap, I know exactly what you're going through. My husband could go 6 months or more without a "problem drunk." But the truth of the matter was that one beer today lead to 2 next week and 3 the week after that and a couple drinks after that....and inevitably it always lead back to a "problem drunk," or binge.

Remember, alcoholism is not defined by how much or how often a person drinks, but by how they behave when they drink. When I drink, no matter how drunk I get, I have never done something that would threaten my marriage, I have never treated my husband disrespectfully, I have never blacked out, I have never drank so much that I vomited, I have never done things that threaten to ruin friendships, and I always am able to stop on my own. My husband has done all of those things, and when he gets that drunk he doesn't stop until he passes out unless I'm present (on days he would get drunk before I got home from work, he would usually stop drinking after I got home because he knew I didn't like the guy he was when drunk).

But those days only happened 1-3 times a year. That made it so easy to deny that he's an alcoholic, for both of us. I just kept thinking that if he would just grow up a bit and put some limits on himself and stick to them that he'd be able to drink like a normal person. Sp we tried limits, over and over. He put limits on himself last summer, no more liquor, only beer and wine. And then on January 19 he had had a few beers at the bar and decided to have a real drink....only he didn't just have a rum and coke or something like that, he ordered the bartender's specialty drink, a drink she usually serves in shots....but if she knows you, she'll serve you a whole pint of it. And that's what he drank. Because he had gone 6 months without a "problem drunk" and figured he had it well under control. He thought he had gotten a hold of it, that he could drink like a normal person.

The drinking started at lunch, and by the time I got home from work at 4:30 he had sent some e-mails that very well could have ended our marriage.

Because he's an alcoholic and his body doesn't process alcohol the same way mine does. He can't drink like a normal person, because he blacks out and can't stop drinking and does horribly hurtful things that he doesn't even remember doing.

The thing that saved our marriage was his realization that he just can't drink anymore, because it always leads back to the binge. It's just not that big a leap from a few beers to a pint of liquor. And he's not willing to risk our marriage for it any more.

You wanna know how bad my denial was? I tried to convince him that he could drink like a normal person, that he wasn't an alcoholic, that he just needed to have some self control. I tried to convince the guy who had just about ruined our marriage in a drunken stupor that it was ok for him to drink again, that if he could just avoid those once or twice a year "problem drunks" that he could be ok. All of this while he was finally admitting it was a big enough problem that he had to quit entirely. How f'd up is that?

I also understand the tension, the wondering how much he's going to drink tonight, will this be one of "those nights." And I know now that I can not go back to how it was before, I don't think I can handle him drinking at all. I already and scared that he'll relapse and he's got like 80 days sober, if he were drinking occasionally I'd go out of my mind with constant worry.

You are not overreacting Hap. And your wife is right, you don't trust her...history has taught you not to.

JustMeInWI

*hugs* Hi Hap,

I've been where you are. I know how much this hurts. I know how this consumes your thoughts, your emotions, your life. One thing I had to accept before I could decide anything for me was that the Dr. Jekyl and the Mr. Hyde in my AH were the SAME PERSON. I couldn't choose just one. If I wanted one, I got the other along with him. It is the same with your wife. And it is a decision only YOU can make for YOU. What matters more to you? Losing the sober version? Or losing the drunk version? A quote I've seen many times on this forum (and repeated to myself many times) was, "When the pain of staying the same is greater than the fear of changing--then you will change. And yes, you will know when you reach that point."

Thinking of you as you live one day at a time through this experience,
JustMe

Ago

For me this nails it

I contorted myself emotionally until I was a pretzel trying to "make it work" and "work through" that "other part" of her, with her full support I may add.

I finally just realized it wasn't "a part" of her, it was part of the package.

What you see is what you get, if you can be happy with her periodically acting out, making scenes in restaurants, cheating on you, binging, etc. by all means stay with her, but if you can't you may need to reassess.

I said here recently any "life plan" I have that is based on someone else changing has always failed miserably.

every. single. time.

Can you take her for how and who she is warts and all? Because that's what you have, trying to convince yourself otherwise is what's "clouding" your thinking. She is not going to change Hap, that's just how that is.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...tionships.html

nowwhat

I am not married, but my ABF is also very unstable. His behavior, when drinking, is not bad (he's warm and fuzzy and makes wild promises). It's the rest of the time that is the problem for me.

I have recently made some plans for myself (that will work with or without ABF), started taking an antidepressant for anxiety (hopefully it will be short term), and seeing a counselor.

I am not planning on leaving my ABF any time soon because I'm too unsure about it. However, I am absolutely committed to moving forward in my OWN life. Being obsessed with someone else is exhausting for me, and I am working hard on letting it go.

I also read here that it is just impossible to rely on an unreliable person (a no-brainer, but it helped me). I hope that I am strong enough some day that I don't feel reliant on my ABF for emotional support (even though what I get isn't very much) and feel deserving enough to move on.

Separating the behavior from the alcoholism is very useful to me. Funny that I actually like my ABF better when he's drinking! I'm beginning to realize that the relationship I'm in right now will never satisfy my desire for a true, connected relationship.

Thinking of you as you work through this. Tension and anxiety are very miserable feelings. Whatever you decide to do, focusing on yourself and your choices will only help.

bluejay6

so glad you're still posting, hap. some newcomers post a few times then fade out, just when they really really need the feedback.

she's got you right where she wants you: doubting yourself, feeling as if you are the one with the problem, and hedging on your terms for an honest marriage.

to keep her, you are mininmizing her abuse, her lies, her infidelity, and the fact that she is an alcoholic.

this is the classic pattern of anyone in relationship with an addict.

so do keep reading and posting, because the story of your marriage is going to grow increasingly intense.

everyone on these forums and everyone i know in my life and everyone in the WORLD has experienced loss, hurt, trauma, devastation of some kind.

no one escapes LIFE.

life does not make alcoholics. alcohol makes alcoholics.

stop listening to her stories of woe and misery.

she drinks because she's a drunk.

and she can get well. but not with you enabling her. you can make her disease so comfortable she will NEVER get well.

good luck....keep seeking.

Rainbowsend

Far from an authority on this subject, others may point the error of thought on this but wondering if she's straddling the line. Alcoholism is a progressive illness, people don't generally wake up one day as an alcoholic. Is it black and white? I don't want to be shot down here as enabling her behaviour as if she's getting to the point where it's not acceptable and it's embarassing that's not good but could she be in the middle ground where she is not yet completely dependent but using alcohol in an irresponsible way?
Her response to her drinking and her choices are up to her and what you say will not be hugely influential but would she be more open to the issue if she wasn't labelled as an A but someone on the cusp? Just a thought and as I'm about to start working with people with mental health and alcohol problems (all be it not in a clinical situation) I would welcome any response to these thoughts.

hiding

I agree Rainbow. I think that her drinking certainly can't be ignored and the fact that she denies there's a problem is a major concern but I can't see why there is absolutely no hope at this stage. I'm not saying that Hap should stay with an alcoholic. I'm saying that for now he should stay with someone who drinks irresponsibly because the problem hasn't been properly addressed.

I notice we're both Brits, Rainbow - do you think that might have anything to do with it because I do think Brits cling to the 'right' to drink generally? e.g. you don't need to be an alcoholic to get annoyed at doctors on tv saying people in Britain generally drink too much - I know plenty of people who do..

Anyway, back on topic..I think that focusing on the alcohol too much could be making matters worse right now. I don't think you have to be an alcoholic to be defensive if someone asks you not to drink. If she's related to an alcoholic her denial might be stronger because she's terrified that history will repeat and angry at her own inability to control herself. I'd focus more on the anger and pain that she exhibits when she drinks and ask where it's coming from. Because she already feels like Hap's attacking her, I think the therapist definitely needs to be brought on side.

That said, Hap's wife is an adult and has a choice to make. When I started binging I was just a kid but eventually I was an adult and I was faced with a choice. I could see what was happening when I drank and was ashamed of my behaviour. I wondered why other people seemed to drink without getting drunk and I knew there was something wrong with the way I drank. It took me time to accept that I could change it. Fortunately, I got to this point before it was too late. I couldn't understand it all at first but eventually I got there because I knew I needed to. Although I am still at risk of alcoholism I was not an alcoholic - I was straddling that line. I was a screwed up little kid using alcohol in an wholly in appropriate way.

Hap's wife has the advantage of a loving husband who wants to help her. If she absolutely refuses to see that alcohol is a problem for her or (worse still in my personal view) chooses it over other methods of coping once the therapist has given her the tools, that's when the much bigger problem starts to my way of thinking. That's the point at which all the posts from people married to long term alcoholics will start seeming painfully real.

I really hope it doesn't come to that.

Ago

We can analyze Hap's wife until the cows come home and it won't do a thing for him.

Her drinking, cheating, lying etc. are a problem for him

When she drinks, she acts out.

She won't stop drinking.

Hap has a problem with this.

Whether or not she is an alcoholic is a moot point.

No one is denying her "right" to drink, she can drink until she looks like Winston Churchill if she wants, How can Hap navigate this situation? What are his boundaries? How can he enforce them?

How can Hap take care of Hap is the question here. What is Hap's solution?

Alcoholics have their own solution, forum, program etc.

If her drinking is causing him distress and causing her to act out and cheat on him etc he has every right to focus on her drinking because it's a problem in his life. Her drinking is a problem FOR HIM.

He has every right to set a boundary and enforce it.

Anything else is known as enabling and codependency. These are unhealthy.

hiding

I realise that my last post was really badly put and I'd like to apologise for that. I'm not here to cause trouble and didn't intend to cause offence. When I joined, I did have the immediate impression that the 'Friends and Family of Alcoholics' forum was really aimed at spouses and I should have trusted that impression. In my case, the family is my father so my experiences are clearly different to yours and I probably shouldn't contribute here.

Hap, I sincerely apologise if my last post caused you additional pain or confusion. We're all here for a reason and I have learned an important lesson. I just hope it wasn't at your expense. I shouldn't be posting to try to help people right now, even if that's my first instinct, because I'm new to recovery and I can't really expect to be helpful when I'm working through the effects of being AF's daughter. In addition, I'm used to writing in declarative statements in my job so it might sound like I'm giving absolute instructions sometimes, when I don't intend to. I can't delete my last post so all I can do right now is clarify it, hoping that you'll see both posts at the same time.

All of us have different personal experiences with alcoholism. It wasn't helpful of me to talk about generalisations in my post. I wasn't trying to suggest that your situation is not a serious one. My own personal experience was that I could choose to find more healthy ways to deal with my pain than alcohol but I'm well aware that others don't and that the situation worsens. The reason I originally thought this was relevant was because you had said you were concerned that treating the PTSD will not treat the problem and I agree because it reminded me that of what happened years ago.

I certainly didn't intend to suggest that your wife isn't responsible for herself, Hap. Whatever the reasons or long term prospects for your wife's drinking, I only meant to ask whether she might be more likely to listen to her therapist now that the issue has become such a tense one between the two of you. I wondered if he might be enough of a 'neutral' party to break through the emotional storm and might have a better chance of influencing her choice and I do absolutely believe it is her choice.

I didn't mean to suggest in my post that you should stick with things, enabling your wife as her addiction worsens over a period of years. It just seemed to me from what you've said that maybe you feel that there is more immediate hope for her and that it could be worth sticking with it for a few weeks or a month or two if her therapist will support you in order to give you the opportunity to find out what choice she is going to make. I suppose there's a fine line to where enabling starts too and you're the only one who can decide where that line lies.

Again, sorry for the miscommunication.

hapapinoy

No, your post did not cause any distress or pain.

I'm here to get support, of course, but also get information and viewpoints. Although sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in the world in this situation, it's obvious that I'm not alone.

I value all contributions and especially appreciate the time people take to try to help.

hapapinoy

Boy, this sounds just like what I am experiencing.

She's at the stage that she admits that her actions when she's really drunk are totally unacceptable. However, because they only occur maybe 3 or 4 times per year, and she does drink in between episodes, she thinks she just needs to control herself from getting out of control. She wants to drink "normally".

Unfortunately, nearly every time she has a bad drunk, she has no memory of it. It makes it easier for her to minimize things, I think. She essentially has blackouts of it. She also really is unable to keep track of how much she drinks. For exampla, she would tell me that she went out with some friends after work and had "1 or 2" drinks, but her friend who was there later tells us that it was 5. I have no trust in her ability to moderate her drinking in that sort of situation.

So far, she's gone just under two weeks without ANY alcohol. She says she will not drink for me. I wish she would not drink because SHE sees it's necessary.

jaguarpcb

Unfortunately Hap, it's her right to think that. And maybe she's right, maybe she's not like my husband. It's her that has to make that decision, and then decide how to behave. You will not convince her otherwise.

So does my husband. He missed beer terribly. We're buying our first house and he knows that isn't going to help, that he's going to want a beer badly after mowing the huge lawn, that he's going to want to drink at the 4th of July party we are throwing, that he's going to feel compelled to buy a bottle of Asti to celebrate, because that's what we have always done. It's not fair that some people can't drink normally, and it sucks....but that's life, it's often unfair.

This was one of the problems with my husband. He didn't often completely black out, and would have some recollection of things he had said and done, but it was fuzzy and clouded. This last time there was undeniable evidence, and he was forced to really see his unacceptable behavior. There were also things he didn't remember that he had to take my word on, and those things shocked him, but I really believe it was the undeniable evidence that did the trick, really convinced him that his behavior was so unacceptable that it might end our marriage.

I'll be honest, Hap, I'm not sure I buy this. My husband always knew how much he was drinking, even when he convinced me it wasn't as much as it really was. His last binge he had me convinced he'd only had 6 beers (enough to get him drunk, but not to get him to the point that he was).....I was considering that he might have something medically wrong with him that would cause him to have such a severe reaction to just 6 beers. And I could smell the liquor on him too, that's the really stupid part, that I could smell it and knew he had to have had liquor to get to the point he was at, and he was still able to convince me he'd only had 6 beers. And he's not a good liar Hap! It wasn't until later in the evening after he'd slept off a bit of his drunkeness that he told me he'd had the pint of liquor, and he didn't remember lying to me about it earlier in the evening.

She's telling you what she thinks you want to hear. If she can get you to believe that she can't keep track of her drinking, then it's not her fault when she has 4-5 drinks, because she's incapable of keeping track. If she admits to you that she knows she had 4-5 drinks, then she's admitting that it's a choice and she is at fault for drinking more that you think she should.

I hate to be so blunt, but no amount of wishing will make it so. It's something she has to come to on her own.

Ago

This is all "textbook" alcoholic behavior by the way

I'm not saying she is an alcoholic, I'm saying this is all "textbook" for alcoholics though.

AA Big Book - Chapter 3

BB 1st ed

Alcoholism takes many guises, The daily drinker, the falling down drunk, the "functioning" alcoholic, the periodic, the secret drinker, the binger, etc al the behavior surrounding alcoholism all looks the same however.

That's one reason it's referred to as a disease, it has recognizable signs and symptoms and quite frankly that doesn't necessarily include quantity imbibed in all cases, it includes what happens when someone drinks, not how often they drink.

If someone loses control of the amount they take after drinking, or if they can't quit for anything like a year those are two good signs. One doesn't necessarily need to "lose control" every time either, "normal drinkers" don't ever lose control.

For me personally, I can have "just a few" maybe 20 times, out of those twenty times, I can't tell you which time I will end up drunk, or what will happen one of those times, that is what makes me an alcoholic, not how often I drink.

Afterwards I will always have a "story" of why that particular "drunk" occurred (empty stomach, friends in town, any one of 100 reasons), but the truth is, once I start drinking, I can't always promise what is going to happen.

Alcoholics ALWAYS lie about the amount they take.

"one or two" = 5-6
"two or three" = 6-9
"a few" = a pint and a six pack or two bottles of wine

Maybe this sounds familiar.

silkspin

Hap, Judi and I have messaged before about how our husbands are very alike. Over the course of a few years when I was increasingly uncomfortable with his drinking behaviour, we went through exactly what you are. He'd sometimes admit that he had trouble controlling it, but insisted each time that he could next time. I tried to 'help' him drink normally - I'd even bring him water after I'd seen he'd had a few (and after we'd agreed that it would be as simple as him having a glass in between each drink), but of course after a few he didn't need it, and I was just interfering. He wasn't always fall on the ground drunk, and maybe he didn't make a fool or cause a scene, but I was always anxious because how was I to know how any night would pan out? The building tension in me over time really started to hurt me in many subtle ways that only now I'm understanding. He, in AA and sober for 4 months, still tells me he desperately wants to be a normal drinker, and I think with enough info and support of AA he will realize that it just can't be. We liken it a bit to an allergy - he's very allergic to hazelnuts. Bad reaction every time he eats one. So, he can never eat hazelnuts. But he's having a very hard time because he defined himself and his social persona by the drink. Now he's facing rebuilding that, and it feels isolating because everyone else does it 'normally'. It's terrible, but that's his reality. And it's my reality to have accepted that although I loved the non-drinking person, I had to face him in his totality - I couldn't separate the two. By enabling him, I actually was speeding up the loss of the one I loved to the disease. When I was finally able to step away, detach, let him feel his consequences, is when he finally started getting help - for him. And now, hopefully, we may be on the road to rediscover the guy I loved. You must realize that although it feels HUGELY counterintuitive to step away and let them do as they do, and fall if that's where they're headed, it is truly the only way it could ever happen. I fear that your wife, trying to prove to you and her that she can go without, will end up white-knuckling herself into an even greater binge than before. It won't work because she is not addressing the true issues. These types of 'heroic' activities are typical and my AH tried all of them, and none worked long term. Eventually we'd find ourselves right back to where we started.

Rainbowsend

I think you are spot on with this and the pub is pretty central to our culture, even our soaps depict the pub as the heart of the community.

hapapinoy

Well, she's been crying a lot the last two days.

She keeps saying that she will never drink again because she doesn't want to lose me. But she hopes "some day I will trust her" and "let her drink normally" again.

Maybe she's chosen me over alcohol, but it feels like it's a very tight race.

MissFixit

Hap,

Hi.

I heard the same stories with hours of tears, holding him and listening to him say how unfair it was to him, as others could drink maybe he could practice moderating it. I believed his pleas for years. Each time I would cry with him. THen, one day I didn't cry with him, I got angry. I told him to stop feeling sorry for himself and do something about it. I was sick of empty promises and lies. In a nano-second he said I was mean, stopped crying and got ANGRY with me and so the story goes...

Hap, Dear, (IMHO) your wife is manipulating you. Stand firm and observe the results if you are in doubt.

Please take care of yourself.

Miss

hapapinoy

I'm living it.

But she keeps making me doubt myself.

Daisy30

Yep, that is what they do. I know my "sensor" was all thrown off. They feel us pulling away and throw all their best stuff out there......hoping to reel us back in.

It is part of the cycle unfortunatley....I went round and round w/it for a long time.

Now that AH and I are seperated, I have some breathing room. No longer do I have a front row seat to the disease. I can hear him say he is getting sober w/out having an imediate emotional response to it. I can also see him not follow through w/his recovery and not be sad, fustrated, or angry.

This is a long thread and I may have glazed over somethings, but I wanted to suggest a few books that helped me in the beginning "Marriage on the Rocks" and "Keeping Them Sober" They are both quick easy reads, packed full of helpful info!

Al-anon has helped me a lot too!

(((())))