Not sure if I fit in here
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lake Mills< IA
Posts: 42
Hi hap
It was nice chatting with u in the chat room wish u would have stayed longer tho. I am in recovery myself but my boyfriend still drinks. To be honest with u hap u are at the right place and yes u do fit in here cuz everyone does. I have only been here not even a month and I feel like this is family to me. So please keep coming back to SR forums or chat, meetings whatever u like. I personally enjoy everything about this site.
My boyfriend drinks daily and averages about 20 cans of beer a nite but does nothing about it he admits he has a problem though. It is a very tough thing but with support and my strength I get through each day. I will keep u and your wife in my thoughts and prayers. Welcome to SR and keep coming back cuz u do fit in and u will find your place here.:ghug3
It was nice chatting with u in the chat room wish u would have stayed longer tho. I am in recovery myself but my boyfriend still drinks. To be honest with u hap u are at the right place and yes u do fit in here cuz everyone does. I have only been here not even a month and I feel like this is family to me. So please keep coming back to SR forums or chat, meetings whatever u like. I personally enjoy everything about this site.
My boyfriend drinks daily and averages about 20 cans of beer a nite but does nothing about it he admits he has a problem though. It is a very tough thing but with support and my strength I get through each day. I will keep u and your wife in my thoughts and prayers. Welcome to SR and keep coming back cuz u do fit in and u will find your place here.:ghug3
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by GiveLove 
Hap,
Regarding the "just happens once in a while" thing - if you or your kids or your wife were just being physically beaten "once in a while" would that make it okay? After all, it's not every day...
The thing about alcoholism is that alcohol IS more important than we are. That's the whole point. I could not settle for such a situation in my life any more. I couldn't cope with someone who put our relationship and her own health at risk out of stubbornness. I am not willing to be with somebody who puts a bottle before me - ever. I would rather be alone, where at least I know the score and I might have hope for a happy future.
On medications for depression and bi-polar disorder, she should not be drinking at all. That's also putting you and her in jeopardy.
If YOU feel comfortable giving her another chance to prove herself - and it's entirely up to you and your preferences, as I certainly would not after all you've been through - then you should be crystal clear what will happen the next time she crosses that boundary.
What WOULD you do, by the way? And would you be willing to stick to it, even in the face of the crying and pleading and manipulation that will inevitably come when you try to enforce it? How much more are you willing to take?
Many guys are really good at rescuing and protecting others, but not good at protecting themselves from damage. I hope you can find a way to do that....life is so much bigger than just devoting your life to trying to save somebody else's.
Regarding the "just happens once in a while" thing - if you or your kids or your wife were just being physically beaten "once in a while" would that make it okay? After all, it's not every day...
The thing about alcoholism is that alcohol IS more important than we are. That's the whole point. I could not settle for such a situation in my life any more. I couldn't cope with someone who put our relationship and her own health at risk out of stubbornness. I am not willing to be with somebody who puts a bottle before me - ever. I would rather be alone, where at least I know the score and I might have hope for a happy future.
On medications for depression and bi-polar disorder, she should not be drinking at all. That's also putting you and her in jeopardy.
If YOU feel comfortable giving her another chance to prove herself - and it's entirely up to you and your preferences, as I certainly would not after all you've been through - then you should be crystal clear what will happen the next time she crosses that boundary.
What WOULD you do, by the way? And would you be willing to stick to it, even in the face of the crying and pleading and manipulation that will inevitably come when you try to enforce it? How much more are you willing to take?
Many guys are really good at rescuing and protecting others, but not good at protecting themselves from damage. I hope you can find a way to do that....life is so much bigger than just devoting your life to trying to save somebody else's.
Well, about 5 months ago, I told her that I was beat...she won....she could have as much alcohol as she wanted, because I couldn't keep fighting with her over it. I was just going to move on and see a lawyer. I didn't want to be a policeman, and couldn't keep arguing with her about it.
She backtracked and promised to stop fighting me about it. Since that time, she has had "modest" amounts of alcohol--I mean a glass or wine or two out for dinner type of level. (This was in part a consequence of the psychologist who said that the EMDR has made many of her patients able to drink moderately and stop the abuse level of alcohol.) She has not yet had any of the big behavioral meltdowns since that time.
However, she has been getting more frequent on her "moderate" use. The confrontation came just over a week ago, when she gave me a "half-truth" about her drinking. I got very angry over what I essentially saw as deceit.
I felt like, despite the psychologist's hope that the therapy would stop abusive drinking, this deceit was a big red flag. I've always been suspicious that this "moderate" intake was, to use a metaphor, the "camel's nose entering the tent"---soon, you'll eventually have the whole camel in the tent. After that confrontation (and another round of me threatening to leave her), she said she would not ever drink again, if I didn't want her to do so. But I'm getting a lot of, "but I hope some day you'll trust me to drink."
I hate being the parole officer here. Again, I feel that if she REALLY valued me more than alcohol, she would give it up without any prompting or supervision on my part.
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 693
hap--
You're right she would--but she isn't. If you can, stop being the police. It is hard to do because you have to detach.
Your wife's statments about moderations sound very similar in some ways to AH's often made statements--if I stop drinking will you stay? He has been white knuckling it at home--I have no idea what he does when he goes out or goes to work. I don't stay up anymore. But just Sunday we went to the assisted living place where his mom is to have dinner. They were wandering around with a tray of glasses of wine. His mom had one and he asked me if I wanted one--for one reason only--if I had one that was basically my permission for him to have one too. It was transparent as glass. I stuck to ice tea and I could tell he was p!55ed off that I did not have a glass of wine. He want me to give him permission to drink??? Then when I don't there is resentment.
The drinking in moderation. . .AH always tells me he drinks in moderation. He NEVER has more than 2 drinks (his words) when we go out--or course they are doubles (or more) of Stoli on the rocks. He also likes to call light beer "water beer" and says it does not count as drinking. He can call it whatever he wants--there is no moderation in his drinking--it just makes him feel better to say he is only having 2 drinks and drinking water beer.
You're right she would--but she isn't. If you can, stop being the police. It is hard to do because you have to detach.
Your wife's statments about moderations sound very similar in some ways to AH's often made statements--if I stop drinking will you stay? He has been white knuckling it at home--I have no idea what he does when he goes out or goes to work. I don't stay up anymore. But just Sunday we went to the assisted living place where his mom is to have dinner. They were wandering around with a tray of glasses of wine. His mom had one and he asked me if I wanted one--for one reason only--if I had one that was basically my permission for him to have one too. It was transparent as glass. I stuck to ice tea and I could tell he was p!55ed off that I did not have a glass of wine. He want me to give him permission to drink??? Then when I don't there is resentment.
The drinking in moderation. . .AH always tells me he drinks in moderation. He NEVER has more than 2 drinks (his words) when we go out--or course they are doubles (or more) of Stoli on the rocks. He also likes to call light beer "water beer" and says it does not count as drinking. He can call it whatever he wants--there is no moderation in his drinking--it just makes him feel better to say he is only having 2 drinks and drinking water beer.
Getting better every day!
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Clinton Twp, MI
Posts: 118
Originally Posted by hapapinoy
She is not a daily drinker by any means, and never has been during our marriage. She typically will drink when at a restaurant one or twice a week. However, every few months, usually when she is out at a dinner party or other social situation, she will drink too much.
He doesn't want to treat me that way anymore, so he has decided he can't drink. He doesn't want that to be necessary, but understands that one beer today leads to two tomorrow, and 3 the next day, and a couple cocktails a few days after that, and eventually it always leads back to a binge where he does and says things that he knows are unacceptable, that he doesn't want to do anymore, and that I don't want to tolerate anymore.
He is what they call a binge drinker. Like your wife, however, he's not the type of binge drinker that doesn't drink for months and then goes on a 3 day bender. Instead he's the type that can drink like someone who's not an alcoholic for months, and then one day he goes too far, and if he continues then at some point he's going to do something unforgivable and our relationship will end.
Alcohol problems come in all different configurations. The thing to remember when she talks about wanting to control it and drink like a normal person is that either a. she can control it and chooses to drink to excess and do and say hurtful things or b. she can't control it. Either option leads to her doing things that are unacceptable for your marriage.
Originally Posted by hapapinoy
My point is, that these event are widely spaced apart; typically by months. Each event does not then trigger a binge of many days.
The answer is, I shouldn't tolerate any of that.
Originally Posted by hapapinoy
However, her psychologist thinks that just by treating her Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, my wife will be able to drink "normally".
Originally Posted by hapapinoy
She says she wants to have a "normal life" and be able to drink limited amounts.
Originally Posted by hapapinoy
We recently tried her on a modest amount of alcohol with me around only, and although over a 6 month time she hadn't gone to the excess that she had in the past, I am feeling a lot of push-back and half-truths from her that makes me concerned that she obsesses too much about alcohol.
There's a line in one of the Al-Anon books about how when we try to control someone else we fail to allow them the dignity of being themselves. When you try to control her drinking, you are not allowing her the dignity of being her own person. Maybe she wants to drink to excess and be verbally and emotionally abusive....that is her right as an adult human being. What you need to focus on is what kind of marriage do you want. Do you want to be married to someone who wants to live like she apparently wants to live?
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Middle of the U.S.
Posts: 85
The dynamics of my ex-spouse's behavior was similar to what you described. The binge drinking / inconsistent aspect of it made is SO much more difficult for me, but I finally came to the realization that by choosing to continue to play Russian roulette with alcohol, he was choosing to put me in the path of his horrible behavior. He wasn't truly sorry for the things he'd done or said or he wouldn't continue to place himself in situations where he was at risk to repeat them.
He looks crazier to me from afar now than he did when we were married, as he had a talent for making me question myself. Coming here and the subsequent separation helped me to find clarity, which gave me the strength to divorce.
He looks crazier to me from afar now than he did when we were married, as he had a talent for making me question myself. Coming here and the subsequent separation helped me to find clarity, which gave me the strength to divorce.
Freed from the anguish
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 124
***hug*** Hi Hap,
I'm so sorry to hear the pain in your posts. It is SO hard to go through. My XAH started out also as a binge drinker, and he'd have one really awful binge every couple of months, and each time it happened he would apologize up and down and try to make up to me for the things he did and said while drunk.
Last year I "got my wish" and he stopped drinking and started attending AlAnon. I thought everything would be all better. But much like your wife, instead of allowing this to be his choice to stop drinking to save our marriage, it became "my fault that he couldn't drink". And anytime his verbal abuse would kick in and I would get angry, he would tell me how nothing he did was ever good enough. He would accuse me of never being happy with him because he stopped drinking, wasn't that enough?
What it really boiled down to for me was I needed to stop making excuses for him. I needed to take a step back, look at the way he was treating me, talking to me, accusing and blaming me for his choices, and ask myself, "If I were in his shoes, and I had hurt him terribly through drinking binges and other behaviors, HOW WOULD I RESPOND?" My answer to that clarified some things for me.
I agree with everyone before me here who has encouraged you to STOP trying to control your wife's drinking. It is not your job to control her choices. They are HER choices, it is HER free will. She can choose YOU or the ALCOHOL. She is trying to accuse you of making that choice for her. Remind yourself that SHE made the choice to stop drinking because SHE did not want you to leave/hire a lawyer/etc. Next time she tries to accuse you of making her stop drinking or accuse you of not trusting her, just remind yourself that it was HER choice, not yours. And if you're strong enough, remind HER that it was HER CHOICE, not yours. That she is perfectly free to drink whenever she wants and however much she wants. The only difference is that YOU have a choice to not remain there to be hurt if she freely chooses to drink. Allow her to be responsible for her choices, and make sure you watch yourself and stay strong and remain responsible for YOUR choices and YOUR boundaries.
If I can do it, I know you can. It's scary and sad and lonely going through this, but you will feel SOOOO much better when you put each ADULTS responsibility for their own actions on themselves - including yours.
***another hug*** Stay strong, keep coming back for support, and I'll be thinking of you as you go through this. Don't give up on yourself - you're too precious.
- JustMe
I'm so sorry to hear the pain in your posts. It is SO hard to go through. My XAH started out also as a binge drinker, and he'd have one really awful binge every couple of months, and each time it happened he would apologize up and down and try to make up to me for the things he did and said while drunk.
Last year I "got my wish" and he stopped drinking and started attending AlAnon. I thought everything would be all better. But much like your wife, instead of allowing this to be his choice to stop drinking to save our marriage, it became "my fault that he couldn't drink". And anytime his verbal abuse would kick in and I would get angry, he would tell me how nothing he did was ever good enough. He would accuse me of never being happy with him because he stopped drinking, wasn't that enough?
What it really boiled down to for me was I needed to stop making excuses for him. I needed to take a step back, look at the way he was treating me, talking to me, accusing and blaming me for his choices, and ask myself, "If I were in his shoes, and I had hurt him terribly through drinking binges and other behaviors, HOW WOULD I RESPOND?" My answer to that clarified some things for me.
I agree with everyone before me here who has encouraged you to STOP trying to control your wife's drinking. It is not your job to control her choices. They are HER choices, it is HER free will. She can choose YOU or the ALCOHOL. She is trying to accuse you of making that choice for her. Remind yourself that SHE made the choice to stop drinking because SHE did not want you to leave/hire a lawyer/etc. Next time she tries to accuse you of making her stop drinking or accuse you of not trusting her, just remind yourself that it was HER choice, not yours. And if you're strong enough, remind HER that it was HER CHOICE, not yours. That she is perfectly free to drink whenever she wants and however much she wants. The only difference is that YOU have a choice to not remain there to be hurt if she freely chooses to drink. Allow her to be responsible for her choices, and make sure you watch yourself and stay strong and remain responsible for YOUR choices and YOUR boundaries.
If I can do it, I know you can. It's scary and sad and lonely going through this, but you will feel SOOOO much better when you put each ADULTS responsibility for their own actions on themselves - including yours.
***another hug*** Stay strong, keep coming back for support, and I'll be thinking of you as you go through this. Don't give up on yourself - you're too precious.
- JustMe
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by JustMeInWI
***hug*** Hi Hap,
I'm so sorry to hear the pain in your posts. It is SO hard to go through. My XAH started out also as a binge drinker, and he'd have one really awful binge every couple of months, and each time it happened he would apologize up and down and try to make up to me for the things he did and said while drunk.
Last year I "got my wish" and he stopped drinking and started attending AlAnon. I thought everything would be all better. But much like your wife, instead of allowing this to be his choice to stop drinking to save our marriage, it became "my fault that he couldn't drink". And anytime his verbal abuse would kick in and I would get angry, he would tell me how nothing he did was ever good enough. He would accuse me of never being happy with him because he stopped drinking, wasn't that enough?
What it really boiled down to for me was I needed to stop making excuses for him. I needed to take a step back, look at the way he was treating me, talking to me, accusing and blaming me for his choices, and ask myself, "If I were in his shoes, and I had hurt him terribly through drinking binges and other behaviors, HOW WOULD I RESPOND?" My answer to that clarified some things for me.
I agree with everyone before me here who has encouraged you to STOP trying to control your wife's drinking. It is not your job to control her choices. They are HER choices, it is HER free will. She can choose YOU or the ALCOHOL. She is trying to accuse you of making that choice for her. Remind yourself that SHE made the choice to stop drinking because SHE did not want you to leave/hire a lawyer/etc. Next time she tries to accuse you of making her stop drinking or accuse you of not trusting her, just remind yourself that it was HER choice, not yours. And if you're strong enough, remind HER that it was HER CHOICE, not yours. That she is perfectly free to drink whenever she wants and however much she wants. The only difference is that YOU have a choice to not remain there to be hurt if she freely chooses to drink. Allow her to be responsible for her choices, and make sure you watch yourself and stay strong and remain responsible for YOUR choices and YOUR boundaries.
If I can do it, I know you can. It's scary and sad and lonely going through this, but you will feel SOOOO much better when you put each ADULTS responsibility for their own actions on themselves - including yours.
***another hug*** Stay strong, keep coming back for support, and I'll be thinking of you as you go through this. Don't give up on yourself - you're too precious.
- JustMe
I'm so sorry to hear the pain in your posts. It is SO hard to go through. My XAH started out also as a binge drinker, and he'd have one really awful binge every couple of months, and each time it happened he would apologize up and down and try to make up to me for the things he did and said while drunk.
Last year I "got my wish" and he stopped drinking and started attending AlAnon. I thought everything would be all better. But much like your wife, instead of allowing this to be his choice to stop drinking to save our marriage, it became "my fault that he couldn't drink". And anytime his verbal abuse would kick in and I would get angry, he would tell me how nothing he did was ever good enough. He would accuse me of never being happy with him because he stopped drinking, wasn't that enough?
What it really boiled down to for me was I needed to stop making excuses for him. I needed to take a step back, look at the way he was treating me, talking to me, accusing and blaming me for his choices, and ask myself, "If I were in his shoes, and I had hurt him terribly through drinking binges and other behaviors, HOW WOULD I RESPOND?" My answer to that clarified some things for me.
I agree with everyone before me here who has encouraged you to STOP trying to control your wife's drinking. It is not your job to control her choices. They are HER choices, it is HER free will. She can choose YOU or the ALCOHOL. She is trying to accuse you of making that choice for her. Remind yourself that SHE made the choice to stop drinking because SHE did not want you to leave/hire a lawyer/etc. Next time she tries to accuse you of making her stop drinking or accuse you of not trusting her, just remind yourself that it was HER choice, not yours. And if you're strong enough, remind HER that it was HER CHOICE, not yours. That she is perfectly free to drink whenever she wants and however much she wants. The only difference is that YOU have a choice to not remain there to be hurt if she freely chooses to drink. Allow her to be responsible for her choices, and make sure you watch yourself and stay strong and remain responsible for YOUR choices and YOUR boundaries.
If I can do it, I know you can. It's scary and sad and lonely going through this, but you will feel SOOOO much better when you put each ADULTS responsibility for their own actions on themselves - including yours.
***another hug*** Stay strong, keep coming back for support, and I'll be thinking of you as you go through this. Don't give up on yourself - you're too precious.
- JustMe
I'm going to stop telling her she can or cannot drink.
But if she chooses to do so, I can choose to leave.
But....what if she chooses to drink and--for a while, at least--doesn't cause any scene? Then the ball is in my court. Should I wait until the next blow-up, or should I say that even 1 drink sends me packing?
If she is really an alcoholic, then she will inevitably have another breakdown.
But what if she is "problem drinker" instead? And is there really a difference?
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 72
Originally Posted by hapapinoy
That's very reassuring.
I'm going to stop telling her she can or cannot drink.
But if she chooses to do so, I can choose to leave.
But....what if she chooses to drink and--for a while, at least--doesn't cause any scene? Then the ball is in my court. Should I wait until the next blow-up, or should I say that even 1 drink sends me packing?
I'm going to stop telling her she can or cannot drink.
But if she chooses to do so, I can choose to leave.
But....what if she chooses to drink and--for a while, at least--doesn't cause any scene? Then the ball is in my court. Should I wait until the next blow-up, or should I say that even 1 drink sends me packing?
I know I've reached a stage where even moderate drinking winds me up (I can't think of any other words to describe the tension right now). I haven't set a boundry about it, I've just stopped talking to him. For me, moderate drinking is not OK because the sound of a beer can opening brings back all the memories of the bad things that happened, and even if it's moderate this time it doesn't matter, I'm still as upset. In fact, the sound of a can of coke/fanta/7 up opening gives me the same feeling
. I can't cope with it right now.ETA, another problem is that I don't know if it's going to be moderate drinking or not until the evening is over, so I spend the whole evening bracing myself in case it's going to be a bad night. So at the end of the night he's the virtous one who drank sensibly, and I'm the mad b*tch who was getting wound up over nothing
.
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 693
Will the one drink lead to another and then another and another until she does cause a scene? If she has one drink and you are with you does she see this as "your permission" for her to drink. You are not responsible for how she drinks, when she drinks or what she does when she drinks--she is.
STBXAH "stopped drinking" about a month ago when I laid it all on the line. I even told him I did not want to be married to him anymore and he told me he knew. He was sober at the time. I have no idea if he is drinking or getting high when he is not home or I am at work. What I do feel is he is responsible for his drinking or getting high, not me. He tries to get me to give him permission to drink and I just don't respond the way he wants. Examples--we went to a restaurant and he asked me what I wanted to drink--I told him coffee and juice for the kids. I then went and played with the kids. Came back and no drinks for anyone. Since I was not going to have a glass on wine with my dinner then he perceived it as me not giving him permssion to drink. So since he could not have a drink--no one could. He did the same thing this weekend--we were someplace and there was someone walking around with a tray of glasses of wine. He asked me if I wanted one. I told the wait person I wanted iced tea. He was not asking me if I wanted a glass of wine because he was being nice and considerate. He was looking for permission to start drinking again--because then the blame game can start up again. It is bugging him big time that I no longer tell him what to do or have any expectations--I am learning to detach.
In the last month he has cleaned up his act considerably. He is helping out at home, paying more attention to the kids and trying to show me how responsible he has become. This has happened before. Is it going to stick this time. I doubt it--he is not in treatment. It will go on for awhile and then the other shoe will drop. It took me a long time to get where I am today. We have been married 11 years and he has been an active alcoholic/drug user all 11 of those years and before we were married. During our marriage I went to counseling and found out how messed up I truly was. It was not until I read Melody Beattie's book (someone posted about co-dependency) I could see how I was before and what I am like now. I have gotten rid of some of those behaviors but they are not all gone. Changing ourselves is not easy because we see the other person as the one having the problem. Check out that post and see if there is anything in there that resonates with you.
I know how hard this is. Someone told me to start going to AlAnon 9 years ago and I never went--then I found SR and since then my eyes are wide open.
STBXAH "stopped drinking" about a month ago when I laid it all on the line. I even told him I did not want to be married to him anymore and he told me he knew. He was sober at the time. I have no idea if he is drinking or getting high when he is not home or I am at work. What I do feel is he is responsible for his drinking or getting high, not me. He tries to get me to give him permission to drink and I just don't respond the way he wants. Examples--we went to a restaurant and he asked me what I wanted to drink--I told him coffee and juice for the kids. I then went and played with the kids. Came back and no drinks for anyone. Since I was not going to have a glass on wine with my dinner then he perceived it as me not giving him permssion to drink. So since he could not have a drink--no one could. He did the same thing this weekend--we were someplace and there was someone walking around with a tray of glasses of wine. He asked me if I wanted one. I told the wait person I wanted iced tea. He was not asking me if I wanted a glass of wine because he was being nice and considerate. He was looking for permission to start drinking again--because then the blame game can start up again. It is bugging him big time that I no longer tell him what to do or have any expectations--I am learning to detach.
In the last month he has cleaned up his act considerably. He is helping out at home, paying more attention to the kids and trying to show me how responsible he has become. This has happened before. Is it going to stick this time. I doubt it--he is not in treatment. It will go on for awhile and then the other shoe will drop. It took me a long time to get where I am today. We have been married 11 years and he has been an active alcoholic/drug user all 11 of those years and before we were married. During our marriage I went to counseling and found out how messed up I truly was. It was not until I read Melody Beattie's book (someone posted about co-dependency) I could see how I was before and what I am like now. I have gotten rid of some of those behaviors but they are not all gone. Changing ourselves is not easy because we see the other person as the one having the problem. Check out that post and see if there is anything in there that resonates with you.
I know how hard this is. Someone told me to start going to AlAnon 9 years ago and I never went--then I found SR and since then my eyes are wide open.
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 390
Originally Posted by hapapinoy
However, I just get the feeling that most people here are fighting a daily battle, and not encountering the intermittent events I have been experiencing. I just wasn't sure if I fit in as a result.
Are you sure it's not a daily battle? For me, I thought the same. Life was same old during the week, work, home, dinner, tv, bed. But you know what? The anxiety over the upcoming weekend would start mid-week, usually if I knew we were invited somewhere. Then, after the 'incident' I'd cope with the anger, his pathetic hungover apologies, sadness etc. Those feelings would linger for another day or two and then it was back worrying about the next weekend.
Seems to me that you're spending a lot of thought on this. A member here put it nicely, that in a subtle way alcoholism starts weaving itself into the fabric of your life. It's not just about the moment she's drinking anymore. I bet you worry on a daily basis about it, you're anxious over when that next binge will be, what you can do to prevent it, what you'll do when she's in the midst of it, what you'll tell her after, and agonize over whether you should stay or go. Am I right? We've all been there. You are caught in the limbo between awareness of the problem and acceptance of it. Tough spot to be in, because I'm sure she sounds pretty convincing. My AH did all that yours did to try and moderate. Now I understand that it's the disease, and even though he may have gone in with the best intentions, it was never his to control and we'd again walk the drunken path.
I separated from him in Jan, when I finally wanted to get off the merry-go-round. He's been sober and in AA ever since. I made my choice, he made his. As I've told my mom, I can cheer him on from the sidelines if he's playing a soccer game, but I can't run into the game and start scoring goals for him. As tough as it is, you must detach from her. Let her life her life. If she lives it in a way you can't handle, then you must make a choice of your own as to what to do. Just remember you can't make her do anything. It will make you resentful, and it will make her bitter. Lose lose. I have been in al anon for 7 months, and it's been a tremendous help to let me let go of him and start living life for myself. Things got better for me once I realized that I had no right to try and make him do anything. But us codies have a hard time drawing that line, because somehow we make ourselves feel that we need to be responsible over others. Tough pill to swallow but it will improve your life. Try to stop looking at her, her therapy, what her psych says or doesn't, what meds she's on or off. Look at yourself. What is your life all about?
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Swish Alps, SF CA
Posts: 2,144
Don't know how I missed this thread
Your experience matches mine exactly Hap
I found this helpful in describing alcoholism
AA Big Book - Chapter 3
It's my opinion that alcoholism is still misunderstood by many in the "medical community", in that it's my opinion backed by much experience and dealings with many therapists and psychiatrists with a background in addiction and alcoholism that the alcoholism needs to be addressed before the other issues can even think about being addressed.
Many well meaning therapists don't have the training and experience with addiction to spot the common traits that come with alcoholism, but one of the things alcoholism does is "manifest" as PTSD, or "Bi-Polar" or narcissism, sometimes it's in conjunction with these issues, sometimes it's plain, old fashioned alcoholism just "dressing up" as these other issues.
Until the alcoholism is addressed it's my experience the therapist will make NO headway with "the other issues"
I found this article eye opening to say the least.
Physical & Emotional Abuse Forum: Worth Reading and re-posting... - DailyStrength
One of the "deflection" tactics used by my xagf was constantly bringing up her abusive childhood to "explain away" her behaviors. She always "had a story" about why she behaved a certain way but would never actually take responsibility for it.
She was also a "periodic" when we started dating, I was a sober alcoholic with "long term" sobriety and I had no idea she was an alcoholic although I had been sober for years and had "been in the program" of AA for 16 years.
I truly understand the "duality" of your dilemma, 90% of the time, actually more, this woman was wonderful, she was a wonderful mother, fun, funny, intelligent, nice, and during the "hearts and flowers" phase, she seemed really in depth about making the relationship work, and then she would start "acting out" and it was nearly incomprehensible to me.
I would then try to communicate with her and she would lash out like nothing I had ever seen in my life. The "distortion of reality" was literally incomprehensible to me. Lying was considered a normal relationship tool.
It was literally like seeing a child with her hand in the cookie jar, and I would ask "what are you doing"
"nothing"
your hand is in the cookie jar
No it's not
yes, yes it is, I'm looking at it RIGHT NOW
<pulls hand out> Nu uh
yes, yes I just SAW your hand in the cookie jar
no you didn't
Yes I did
<bursts into tears> Well, I steal the cookies because of the trauma in my childhood, I can't help stealing the cookies, I can't believe you are being so abusive to me
Well, OK, you don't need to lie about it
<switch to rage> Are you calling me a liar??????? are you questioning my integrity????? how DARE you question my integrity?????? It wasn't a lie, it was only a white lie, You need to pick your battles, and this isn't a good one for you. What kind of mother would I be if I made my daughter "cop" to every little lie she ever told. She would NEVER come to me with anything. You are ABUSIVE calling me a liar.
and so on and so on
It was crazy
It was like a Monty Python skit, it would have been funny had it not been so tragic.
Here was my first post here:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...long-post.html
Anyhow, I have no words of wisdom for you other then to get help and support. I spent over a year trying to adjust myself to an insane person in an insane situation and pretty much ended up insane myself.
I ended up having to leave.
She finally got help after I left her. Truthfully I hope she gets well and finds all of the love and support she needs on her journey, but I'm very content to have that all take place far far away from me.
The only "fixer upper" I ever want in my life again is my car (well, that and my house)
I hope I made sense, please feel free to PM me, I'm a little out of it the last few days, I've been pretty sick, but if there is anything I can do please let me know.
Your experience matches mine exactly Hap
I found this helpful in describing alcoholism
AA Big Book - Chapter 3
It's my opinion that alcoholism is still misunderstood by many in the "medical community", in that it's my opinion backed by much experience and dealings with many therapists and psychiatrists with a background in addiction and alcoholism that the alcoholism needs to be addressed before the other issues can even think about being addressed.
Many well meaning therapists don't have the training and experience with addiction to spot the common traits that come with alcoholism, but one of the things alcoholism does is "manifest" as PTSD, or "Bi-Polar" or narcissism, sometimes it's in conjunction with these issues, sometimes it's plain, old fashioned alcoholism just "dressing up" as these other issues.
Until the alcoholism is addressed it's my experience the therapist will make NO headway with "the other issues"
I found this article eye opening to say the least.
Physical & Emotional Abuse Forum: Worth Reading and re-posting... - DailyStrength
One of the "deflection" tactics used by my xagf was constantly bringing up her abusive childhood to "explain away" her behaviors. She always "had a story" about why she behaved a certain way but would never actually take responsibility for it.
She was also a "periodic" when we started dating, I was a sober alcoholic with "long term" sobriety and I had no idea she was an alcoholic although I had been sober for years and had "been in the program" of AA for 16 years.
I truly understand the "duality" of your dilemma, 90% of the time, actually more, this woman was wonderful, she was a wonderful mother, fun, funny, intelligent, nice, and during the "hearts and flowers" phase, she seemed really in depth about making the relationship work, and then she would start "acting out" and it was nearly incomprehensible to me.
I would then try to communicate with her and she would lash out like nothing I had ever seen in my life. The "distortion of reality" was literally incomprehensible to me. Lying was considered a normal relationship tool.
It was literally like seeing a child with her hand in the cookie jar, and I would ask "what are you doing"
"nothing"
your hand is in the cookie jar
No it's not
yes, yes it is, I'm looking at it RIGHT NOW
<pulls hand out> Nu uh
yes, yes I just SAW your hand in the cookie jar
no you didn't
Yes I did
<bursts into tears> Well, I steal the cookies because of the trauma in my childhood, I can't help stealing the cookies, I can't believe you are being so abusive to me
Well, OK, you don't need to lie about it
<switch to rage> Are you calling me a liar??????? are you questioning my integrity????? how DARE you question my integrity?????? It wasn't a lie, it was only a white lie, You need to pick your battles, and this isn't a good one for you. What kind of mother would I be if I made my daughter "cop" to every little lie she ever told. She would NEVER come to me with anything. You are ABUSIVE calling me a liar.
and so on and so on
It was crazy
It was like a Monty Python skit, it would have been funny had it not been so tragic.
Here was my first post here:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...long-post.html
Anyhow, I have no words of wisdom for you other then to get help and support. I spent over a year trying to adjust myself to an insane person in an insane situation and pretty much ended up insane myself.
I ended up having to leave.
She finally got help after I left her. Truthfully I hope she gets well and finds all of the love and support she needs on her journey, but I'm very content to have that all take place far far away from me.
The only "fixer upper" I ever want in my life again is my car (well, that and my house)
I hope I made sense, please feel free to PM me, I'm a little out of it the last few days, I've been pretty sick, but if there is anything I can do please let me know.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,582
I had a similar situation to Ago's for several years.
His binge drinking started to change into secret daily drinking. Mood swings morphed into nightmare suicidal threat dramas that he said were my fault for not loving him and being mean. This would be after I confronted him lying to me.
I actually spent years thinking that I could tell the difference between his lies and the truth...that shows how off balance I became. Ultimately, I chose to believe him and he cheated on me and denied it for months. Eventually he disappeared and I found out from friends that he was engaged to the woman. In the last few months he/she have tried to communicate with me and my family in weird ways.
I learned that I cannot have any relationship with honesty and respect.
His binge drinking started to change into secret daily drinking. Mood swings morphed into nightmare suicidal threat dramas that he said were my fault for not loving him and being mean. This would be after I confronted him lying to me.
I actually spent years thinking that I could tell the difference between his lies and the truth...that shows how off balance I became. Ultimately, I chose to believe him and he cheated on me and denied it for months. Eventually he disappeared and I found out from friends that he was engaged to the woman. In the last few months he/she have tried to communicate with me and my family in weird ways.
I learned that I cannot have any relationship with honesty and respect.
Freed from the anguish
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 124
Originally Posted by hapapinoy
But....what if she chooses to drink and--for a while, at least--doesn't cause any scene? Then the ball is in my court. Should I wait until the next blow-up, or should I say that even 1 drink sends me packing?
If she is really an alcoholic, then she will inevitably have another breakdown.
But what if she is "problem drinker" instead? And is there really a difference?
If she is really an alcoholic, then she will inevitably have another breakdown.
But what if she is "problem drinker" instead? And is there really a difference?
I hope you are still standing strong for YOU and taking care of you, getting support that YOU need for YOU.
What I noticed in your questions above is that they are all focused on HER and what SHE does or does not do. When living in that kind of insanity, I know how hard it is, but try to put the focus back on YOU and what YOUR doing or not doing. Only you can decide what your boundaries are, what your comfort levels are, and what you are willing to allow to go on in YOUR life and around YOU.
Take the next step in your questions and ask yourself, "If she chooses to drink and does not cause a scene, am I ok with that?" Remember, it doesn't matter what she thinks or says about whether her actions are ok. The question is your question for you - are YOU ok with her drinking regardless of the outcome? Would you be ok with waiting for her to be unfaithful to you yet again, or is enough enough now? Only you can decide that for YOU. Not her. Not me. Only you have walked in your shoes, been hurt the way you have. And remember that whatever YOU decide is perfectly acceptable because only YOU have to live each day of the rest of your life.
And as far as "alcoholic vs. problem drinker" - When my XAH had been in AA for a couple months, he changed his mind and said he wasn't an alcoholic, he just was a problem drinker. He was still the same guy who still did the things he did while drunk and made the choices he did when not drinking. Titles and classifications don't really matters. All that matters is what YOU are willing to allow in YOUR life, and what you are not.
*hug* I hope that helps. Keep coming back, getting support, and making good choices for YOU
- JustMe
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by Techie1701
Hmm. I guess it depends on what your boundry really is. Is it 'no drinking' or is it 'no making a scene'?
I know I've reached a stage where even moderate drinking winds me up (I can't think of any other words to describe the tension right now). I haven't set a boundry about it, I've just stopped talking to him. For me, moderate drinking is not OK because the sound of a beer can opening brings back all the memories of the bad things that happened, and even if it's moderate this time it doesn't matter, I'm still as upset. In fact, the sound of a can of coke/fanta/7 up opening gives me the same feeling
. I can't cope with it right now.
ETA, another problem is that I don't know if it's going to be moderate drinking or not until the evening is over, so I spend the whole evening bracing myself in case it's going to be a bad night. So at the end of the night he's the virtous one who drank sensibly, and I'm the mad b*tch who was getting wound up over nothing.
I know I've reached a stage where even moderate drinking winds me up (I can't think of any other words to describe the tension right now). I haven't set a boundry about it, I've just stopped talking to him. For me, moderate drinking is not OK because the sound of a beer can opening brings back all the memories of the bad things that happened, and even if it's moderate this time it doesn't matter, I'm still as upset. In fact, the sound of a can of coke/fanta/7 up opening gives me the same feeling
. I can't cope with it right now.ETA, another problem is that I don't know if it's going to be moderate drinking or not until the evening is over, so I spend the whole evening bracing myself in case it's going to be a bad night. So at the end of the night he's the virtous one who drank sensibly, and I'm the mad b*tch who was getting wound up over nothing
.Well, at one time it was "no scene". Now it's "no drinking", but she makes me feel as though I am being unfair about it; basically, she says that if there is no scene/behavior issue, then there should be no reason she couldn't drink moderately.
That would be true to a point. But, unfortunately, I'm at the point that I'm just afraid for her to have ANY alcohol. She says that "I don't trust her." Maybe that's true.
I'm at the point that I don't want to go with her to a nice restaurant where traditionally we might have wine with dinner because I don't want to feel the tension over it. Even if she doesn't say anything, the tension is there because I know what she wants.
If she had been a person who got drunk and had outbursts every day, it would be simpler. It would be easier for me to draw the line without questioning myself. However, even at her worst, it would be two or three months between bad events. The other times, she might drink moderately without incident, and might go a couple weeks without having ANY alcohol. That's why I have trouble deciding if she is a Problem Drinker or an Alcoholic, providing that makes a difference.
I just feel so conflicted.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by JustMeInWI
...(snip)
.....Take the next step in your questions and ask yourself, "If she chooses to drink and does not cause a scene, am I ok with that?" Remember, it doesn't matter what she thinks or says about whether her actions are ok. The question is your question for you - are YOU ok with her drinking regardless of the outcome? Would you be ok with waiting for her to be unfaithful to you yet again, or is enough enough now? Only you can decide that for YOU. Not her. Not me. Only you have walked in your shoes, been hurt the way you have. And remember that whatever YOU decide is perfectly acceptable because only YOU have to live each day of the rest of your life.........(snip)
- JustMe
.....Take the next step in your questions and ask yourself, "If she chooses to drink and does not cause a scene, am I ok with that?" Remember, it doesn't matter what she thinks or says about whether her actions are ok. The question is your question for you - are YOU ok with her drinking regardless of the outcome? Would you be ok with waiting for her to be unfaithful to you yet again, or is enough enough now? Only you can decide that for YOU. Not her. Not me. Only you have walked in your shoes, been hurt the way you have. And remember that whatever YOU decide is perfectly acceptable because only YOU have to live each day of the rest of your life.........(snip)
- JustMe
So there I am. I don't like the tension. I don't like her drinking. But I don't want to make a decision or demand that is selfish, unreasonable, or that I will regret.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Midwest USA
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by Ago
Don't know how I missed this thread
Your experience matches mine exactly Hap
I found this helpful in describing alcoholism
<<link deleted by HapaPinoy because the forum won't let me post links yet>>
It's my opinion that alcoholism is still misunderstood by many in the "medical community", in that it's my opinion backed by much experience and dealings with many therapists and psychiatrists with a background in addiction and alcoholism that the alcoholism needs to be addressed before the other issues can even think about being addressed.
Many well meaning therapists don't have the training and experience with addiction to spot the common traits that come with alcoholism, but one of the things alcoholism does is "manifest" as PTSD, or "Bi-Polar" or narcissism, sometimes it's in conjunction with these issues, sometimes it's plain, old fashioned alcoholism just "dressing up" as these other issues.
Until the alcoholism is addressed it's my experience the therapist will make NO headway with "the other issues"........
Your experience matches mine exactly Hap
I found this helpful in describing alcoholism
<<link deleted by HapaPinoy because the forum won't let me post links yet>>
It's my opinion that alcoholism is still misunderstood by many in the "medical community", in that it's my opinion backed by much experience and dealings with many therapists and psychiatrists with a background in addiction and alcoholism that the alcoholism needs to be addressed before the other issues can even think about being addressed.
Many well meaning therapists don't have the training and experience with addiction to spot the common traits that come with alcoholism, but one of the things alcoholism does is "manifest" as PTSD, or "Bi-Polar" or narcissism, sometimes it's in conjunction with these issues, sometimes it's plain, old fashioned alcoholism just "dressing up" as these other issues.
Until the alcoholism is addressed it's my experience the therapist will make NO headway with "the other issues"........
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,582
Hap,
Hi.
I know the confusion mixed with guilt feelings well. I tried to make every accomodation for my A. He had outrageous reactions to my "normal" requests (i.e. just tell me if you are going to drink or did drink, please just tell me the truth no matter how hard it is rather than lie to me." I might as well have asked him to move a mountain, as it was met with a begrudgingly "yes" followed by ENORMOUS lies.
You stated:
"Well, at one time it was "no scene". Now it's "no drinking", but she makes me feel as though I am being unfair about it; basically, she says that if there is no scene/behavior issue, then there should be no reason she couldn't drink moderately.
That would be true to a point. But, unfortunately, I'm at the point that I'm just afraid for her to have ANY alcohol. She says that "I don't trust her." Maybe that's true.
I'm at the point that I don't want to go with her to a nice restaurant where traditionally we might have wine with dinner because I don't want to feel the tension over it. Even if she doesn't say anything, the tension is there because I know what she wants."
Your wife is right. You don't trust her. That worry and tension is not trusting her as her past behavior resulted in negative consequences.
I too wanted to trust my ex and I felt guilty for the same tension in social situations
with him. I wanted to protect him from those situations. Thought I did a good job, until he would sneak out without me and drink/act out anyway only to lie to me about it. Then I felt like a fool, and questioned what "I" did wrong for him to act like that. Boy, my reasoning was pretty off base.
She has broken your trust and SHE must earn it back, if that is what you want. Consider why you want to remain with someone who you cannot trust. This was a BIG revelation for me and has/is taking months to come to grips with.
You also stated:
"Except, I don't want to lose the person she is when she's not drinking/out of control, just the out of control version. But I also hate the feeling of walking on eggshells with her drinking issue. Even though for the last two weeks she has kept her promise not to have ANY alcohol (well, as far as I know she's kept it), there's the unsaid tension of her wanting it and me knowing she wants it."
Hap, she is sick. You cannot trust her. SHE proved that to you. The sober person in her that you love is at best intermittently present. With time that "sober girl" will get less and less present, eventually disappearing. You will have invested more years with her and YOU will be in a negative place mentally for staying with a very sick person. I was in your shoes recently and got very hurt. He still drinks, but with the woman he cheated with. She allows it. They are two unhealthy people coexisting to maintain his disease. Yuck.
I hope you make better choices for yourself than I did. You have kids and I don't. I would hate to expose them to the abosolute vulgar/base/low life situations I encountered with my ex.
This is a really hard exercise, but emotions aside, what would you tell your best friend to do in this same situation? Given ALL the facts and historical data.
Hugs,
Miss
Hi.
I know the confusion mixed with guilt feelings well. I tried to make every accomodation for my A. He had outrageous reactions to my "normal" requests (i.e. just tell me if you are going to drink or did drink, please just tell me the truth no matter how hard it is rather than lie to me." I might as well have asked him to move a mountain, as it was met with a begrudgingly "yes" followed by ENORMOUS lies.
You stated:
"Well, at one time it was "no scene". Now it's "no drinking", but she makes me feel as though I am being unfair about it; basically, she says that if there is no scene/behavior issue, then there should be no reason she couldn't drink moderately.
That would be true to a point. But, unfortunately, I'm at the point that I'm just afraid for her to have ANY alcohol. She says that "I don't trust her." Maybe that's true.
I'm at the point that I don't want to go with her to a nice restaurant where traditionally we might have wine with dinner because I don't want to feel the tension over it. Even if she doesn't say anything, the tension is there because I know what she wants."
Your wife is right. You don't trust her. That worry and tension is not trusting her as her past behavior resulted in negative consequences.
I too wanted to trust my ex and I felt guilty for the same tension in social situations
with him. I wanted to protect him from those situations. Thought I did a good job, until he would sneak out without me and drink/act out anyway only to lie to me about it. Then I felt like a fool, and questioned what "I" did wrong for him to act like that. Boy, my reasoning was pretty off base.
She has broken your trust and SHE must earn it back, if that is what you want. Consider why you want to remain with someone who you cannot trust. This was a BIG revelation for me and has/is taking months to come to grips with.
You also stated:
"Except, I don't want to lose the person she is when she's not drinking/out of control, just the out of control version. But I also hate the feeling of walking on eggshells with her drinking issue. Even though for the last two weeks she has kept her promise not to have ANY alcohol (well, as far as I know she's kept it), there's the unsaid tension of her wanting it and me knowing she wants it."
Hap, she is sick. You cannot trust her. SHE proved that to you. The sober person in her that you love is at best intermittently present. With time that "sober girl" will get less and less present, eventually disappearing. You will have invested more years with her and YOU will be in a negative place mentally for staying with a very sick person. I was in your shoes recently and got very hurt. He still drinks, but with the woman he cheated with. She allows it. They are two unhealthy people coexisting to maintain his disease. Yuck.
I hope you make better choices for yourself than I did. You have kids and I don't. I would hate to expose them to the abosolute vulgar/base/low life situations I encountered with my ex.
This is a really hard exercise, but emotions aside, what would you tell your best friend to do in this same situation? Given ALL the facts and historical data.
Hugs,
Miss
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