deceit...of the dry drunk
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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I agree with Doorknob to an extent. An irresponsible, dishonest person doesn't have to be an A.
However, my exA went from being a working attorney, former marine officer to an unemployed, daily drinker, calls friends and makes no sense in drunken call a thons, has many DUIs, ruined his marriage, our relationship, relationships with his family, long time friends and seeps down to the bellows to find new drinking buddies and people who will tolerate his antics.
He has gone through periods of sobriety where I thought all was better and then...he drank again and the bottom fell out.
However, my exA went from being a working attorney, former marine officer to an unemployed, daily drinker, calls friends and makes no sense in drunken call a thons, has many DUIs, ruined his marriage, our relationship, relationships with his family, long time friends and seeps down to the bellows to find new drinking buddies and people who will tolerate his antics.
He has gone through periods of sobriety where I thought all was better and then...he drank again and the bottom fell out.
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Location: littleton, Colorado
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Rubbish.. you will see alot of posts from people whose OHs are not drinking and in recovery and yet the madness continues and gets worse. In my case the A was over two years sober, in AA and sponsored and he still managed to display some pretty reprehensible behaviour. In fact his 'recovery' left me in hospital. Recovery is more than not picking up a drink. So if an alcoholic stops drinking and goes through the motions yet never achieves sobriety then.. I'm sorry.. they are not recovering.
Thanks for all of your "big brother" comments! But seriously now...Tommy-I must say that term was from a former counselor who first brought up the concept of "dry drunk" and your comments, although emotional based and your own, do not really address the context under which I was using the term at all. As you have seen from just a handful of posts here, the term is the most expressive of an individual who truly isn't in recovery and just because someone doesn't pick up a drink does not mean they are in recovery.
All of the associated behaviors I and others are experiencing are based in this phenomena of a "dry drunk". Do I wish my AH was drinking? Of course not, but I was completely deceived by him and his disease and he wasn't honest about his this before we got married. I am someone who still enjoys alcohol reponsibly and this part of our relationship is gone and now I'm left with a new person who would rather lie to me and take the easy way out rather than be committed.
Thanks for all of your "big brother" comments! But seriously now...Tommy-I must say that term was from a former counselor who first brought up the concept of "dry drunk" and your comments, although emotional based and your own, do not really address the context under which I was using the term at all. As you have seen from just a handful of posts here, the term is the most expressive of an individual who truly isn't in recovery and just because someone doesn't pick up a drink does not mean they are in recovery.
All of the associated behaviors I and others are experiencing are based in this phenomena of a "dry drunk". Do I wish my AH was drinking? Of course not, but I was completely deceived by him and his disease and he wasn't honest about his this before we got married. I am someone who still enjoys alcohol reponsibly and this part of our relationship is gone and now I'm left with a new person who would rather lie to me and take the easy way out rather than be committed.
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A few of you questioned about separating finances...this has been a long struggle with him from the beginning, but I'll condense as best I can (a master's in communication helps in this regard!).
We used to have a joint account, but he claims his ego cannot deal with the fact that he feels he has to "ask" me for money because I make substantially more than he, he feels like it is "my" money, not "ours".
So, we have separate but linked accounts. We went to a Crown class through our church which I thought was great-but no change with him. He doesn't keep receipts for his debit card, writes nothing down and only looks online to see how much money is in the account but hasn't accepted the fact that he needs to [I]write things down in his register[I] in order to know how much is in the account. In other words, our accounts have been joined and separate but he hasn't changed-he refused to take responsibility for writing things down.
This morning, at 8am sharp, I received a call from the bank about his account (while he was sleeping next to the phone), told me the situation and approved a transfer out of my account. After I made him get his checkbook (and I have never done that before), I realized that it was buried in the filing cabinet in his office and he hasn't written down anything for 3 months. The frustration is we have been there, done that at least a dozen times.
Also remember my previous post-he has ruined his credit because he didn't start paying back his student loans last year even though I asked him for 6 months about it...you see the lying, deceit, etc. is ruining him, but it doesn't seem to matter-and I am fit to be tied. Nothing I can do, and I haven't. I didn't bail him out of that one either-and when his credit came back in the toilet, I didn't buy him a car which is what he was trying to do on his own and acted like he had no idea what we were talking about regarding the 5's (yes, fives) on his credit report.
I feel like he is running to jump in the drain, but I have climbed out and will do anything to keep him from dragging me with him. I won't enable his behavior (by not bailing him out), but I feel so lonely and at times stupid (I know I shouldn't) because there are other parts of him that I do love.
We used to have a joint account, but he claims his ego cannot deal with the fact that he feels he has to "ask" me for money because I make substantially more than he, he feels like it is "my" money, not "ours".
So, we have separate but linked accounts. We went to a Crown class through our church which I thought was great-but no change with him. He doesn't keep receipts for his debit card, writes nothing down and only looks online to see how much money is in the account but hasn't accepted the fact that he needs to [I]write things down in his register[I] in order to know how much is in the account. In other words, our accounts have been joined and separate but he hasn't changed-he refused to take responsibility for writing things down.
This morning, at 8am sharp, I received a call from the bank about his account (while he was sleeping next to the phone), told me the situation and approved a transfer out of my account. After I made him get his checkbook (and I have never done that before), I realized that it was buried in the filing cabinet in his office and he hasn't written down anything for 3 months. The frustration is we have been there, done that at least a dozen times.
Also remember my previous post-he has ruined his credit because he didn't start paying back his student loans last year even though I asked him for 6 months about it...you see the lying, deceit, etc. is ruining him, but it doesn't seem to matter-and I am fit to be tied. Nothing I can do, and I haven't. I didn't bail him out of that one either-and when his credit came back in the toilet, I didn't buy him a car which is what he was trying to do on his own and acted like he had no idea what we were talking about regarding the 5's (yes, fives) on his credit report.
I feel like he is running to jump in the drain, but I have climbed out and will do anything to keep him from dragging me with him. I won't enable his behavior (by not bailing him out), but I feel so lonely and at times stupid (I know I shouldn't) because there are other parts of him that I do love.
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Location: Kansas
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Why not completely separate the two accounts?
You haven't completely climbed out. You said the bank called you about his account, and a transfer was approved.
Did you have money transferred to his account, and if so, why?
I'm not trying to frustrate you, just trying to get a better feel of what is going on here with this 'linked' accounts thing.
You haven't completely climbed out. You said the bank called you about his account, and a transfer was approved.
Did you have money transferred to his account, and if so, why?
I'm not trying to frustrate you, just trying to get a better feel of what is going on here with this 'linked' accounts thing.
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Location: Arlington, VA
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Originally Posted by mermaidgirl 
I won't enable his behavior (by not bailing him out), but I feel so lonely and at times stupid (I know I shouldn't) because there are other parts of him that I do love.
If he has no motivation to change his "lazy" behaviors regarding the accounts (or anything else for that matter) because you sweep in and make it right for him, why should he change? Heck if I had someone willing to put money in my account after I screwed up andwas irresponsible with my money, I'd make sure I keep it up actually. I would benefit from my bad behaviors by direct monetary reward!.
Or I am I missing some piece here?
Last edited by Barbara52; 03-27-2009 at 08:28 PM.
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Saying this gently, mermaidgirl, but I tend to agree with Barbara and Freedom.
He is behaving this way because he is permitted to behave this way.
He doesn't want separate accounts because he doesn't want to ask you for money.
So he now has a situation where he can just TAKE it when he needs it.
And he needs it because he won't take the time to learn to manage his own.
And all of this is fair to you.....how?
It's sad, but it's true.
I wish you luck finding some kind of common ground, because it does sound like you see a good side of him, whereas we cannot. First off, I might respectfully suggest he find a way to make enough money to pay his half of your joint living expenses, and 100% of his own personal expenses. Unless you like the role of being his provider, you may want to separate things for your own sanity and your own fiscal future.
Being a grown-up means learning how to manage your resources.
He is behaving this way because he is permitted to behave this way.
He doesn't want separate accounts because he doesn't want to ask you for money.
So he now has a situation where he can just TAKE it when he needs it.
And he needs it because he won't take the time to learn to manage his own.
And all of this is fair to you.....how?
It's sad, but it's true.
I wish you luck finding some kind of common ground, because it does sound like you see a good side of him, whereas we cannot. First off, I might respectfully suggest he find a way to make enough money to pay his half of your joint living expenses, and 100% of his own personal expenses. Unless you like the role of being his provider, you may want to separate things for your own sanity and your own fiscal future.
Being a grown-up means learning how to manage your resources.
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 63
I don't think of a recovering alcoholic as dry drunk.
In fact, what an al-anon leader told me was that a dry drunk is when an alcoholic exhibits the same offensive behavior when he's sobered up as when he's drunk......
I have to add that it's in between drinking bouts when the drinking is more the normal occurance than exception.
The poor sod never stays sober long enough for the familiar, civil, funny, long lost personality and character to surface.
The best 2 months I've had with my husband in the last 5 years (we've been married almost 24 yrs.) was from right after his back surgery last Sept. until 2 months later, while he never drank one drop of alcohol.
I saw the husband I hadn't seen in Years.
Considerate, intelligent, sweet, funny, POLITE.......all the things he is Not when he drinks.
(He had fallen asleep and totaled his truck, resulting in having to have 5 vertebrae fused in surgery)
He drinks mostly at home....but not on a daily basis anymore.....and not the hard stuff.
He Has, unfortunately, driven himself home from the local VFW NOT sober 6 times since last November......so it is only a matter of time....again.
Only now I do not mince words....I unload.....and he doesn't deny anything I say.
As long as he is not addressing WHY he's drinking......the alcohol will continue to F-ING win.
I love my husband when he's sober.
I want Nothing to do with him whatsoever when he's potted.
I did not want to start being angry again so often out of disgust, being disrespected and feeling Used.
Ok....I guess that's enough drama for now.
Thank you if you've read this far.
I have to add that it's in between drinking bouts when the drinking is more the normal occurance than exception.
The poor sod never stays sober long enough for the familiar, civil, funny, long lost personality and character to surface.
The best 2 months I've had with my husband in the last 5 years (we've been married almost 24 yrs.) was from right after his back surgery last Sept. until 2 months later, while he never drank one drop of alcohol.
I saw the husband I hadn't seen in Years.
Considerate, intelligent, sweet, funny, POLITE.......all the things he is Not when he drinks.
(He had fallen asleep and totaled his truck, resulting in having to have 5 vertebrae fused in surgery)
He drinks mostly at home....but not on a daily basis anymore.....and not the hard stuff.
He Has, unfortunately, driven himself home from the local VFW NOT sober 6 times since last November......so it is only a matter of time....again.
Only now I do not mince words....I unload.....and he doesn't deny anything I say.
As long as he is not addressing WHY he's drinking......the alcohol will continue to F-ING win.
I love my husband when he's sober.
I want Nothing to do with him whatsoever when he's potted.
I did not want to start being angry again so often out of disgust, being disrespected and feeling Used.
Ok....I guess that's enough drama for now.
Thank you if you've read this far.
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This is the situation with finances...the checking account is the last thing to truly "separate". We just refinanced-it's all in my name; cars are in my name and no shared credit cards. Additionally, I changed my will and took him off as the beneficiary for my life insurance policy (and it's a biggee) and put my son on it. Also remember when he methodically took 6 months to ruin his credit behind my back (and we knew his credit sucked when we got married-another surprise, we intentionally took him off things to rebuild the credit), I did NOT swoop in and buy him a car even though he needs one.
When the phone rang at 8am and I was getting ready for work, I answered it and it was the bank on the phone. AH told me earlier in the week he had to transfer money and I was surprised, but then the BANK calls...because he never pulled a balance, never wrote anything down so he had no clue what wasn't in his account.
However, I see what you are all saying and I will pull him off of my account completely-again. Thankfully this is an easy thing to do because I am in the private banking division and it only takes a phone call. I just cannot believe someone would do this to their spouse...I just don't understand it and I never will.
When the phone rang at 8am and I was getting ready for work, I answered it and it was the bank on the phone. AH told me earlier in the week he had to transfer money and I was surprised, but then the BANK calls...because he never pulled a balance, never wrote anything down so he had no clue what wasn't in his account.
However, I see what you are all saying and I will pull him off of my account completely-again. Thankfully this is an easy thing to do because I am in the private banking division and it only takes a phone call. I just cannot believe someone would do this to their spouse...I just don't understand it and I never will.
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update on deceit of the dry drunk situation
...as it stood last time I posted my AH's bank account was salvaged thru mine, basically. Over the weekend I had time to think-attend my weekly counseling-and came to the decision that I will talk to my personal banker about taking him off my account. This should actually be an easy thing to do because he was linked to my account and not the other way around. So, he will still have an account for his paychecks to be deposited into.
On to to the more delicate things...Saturday I came home to find him reading an AA book (something he has never done) and he was already half way thru it. He said I was right about one thing and that was he is a better person when he is working his recovery. Me: silent. He said he does better when he attends meetings. Me: I didn't know you stopped? He admitted his attendance was sporadic at best and he secured a new sponsor (his previous one moved and he never replaced him).
I really have detached from him...and while I was hogging (gladly!) the big screen TV in the basement he even [I]asked if he could sit with me and read his book[I]. <Gasp> Drama perhaps? I don't know, but it is movement in the right way. Today's unfortunate task will be to take him off the account and tell him no more bailouts from my account.
We'll see...
On to to the more delicate things...Saturday I came home to find him reading an AA book (something he has never done) and he was already half way thru it. He said I was right about one thing and that was he is a better person when he is working his recovery. Me: silent. He said he does better when he attends meetings. Me: I didn't know you stopped? He admitted his attendance was sporadic at best and he secured a new sponsor (his previous one moved and he never replaced him).
I really have detached from him...and while I was hogging (gladly!) the big screen TV in the basement he even [I]asked if he could sit with me and read his book[I]. <Gasp> Drama perhaps? I don't know, but it is movement in the right way. Today's unfortunate task will be to take him off the account and tell him no more bailouts from my account.
We'll see...
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Texas
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I would recommend opening an account in ONLY your name....and not telling him or anyone that you've done that.
Gradually build it up to a level that would help for awhile on your own if need be.....and then when you need it, it will be there.
I did that in March 2006......and didn't close it for 2 years.
I didn't need it, but it was sure nice knowing it was there when things were rocky in 2006. (involved things other than drinking)
Gradually build it up to a level that would help for awhile on your own if need be.....and then when you need it, it will be there.
I did that in March 2006......and didn't close it for 2 years.
I didn't need it, but it was sure nice knowing it was there when things were rocky in 2006. (involved things other than drinking)
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Originally Posted by mermaidgirl
... Over the weekend I had time to think-attend my weekly counseling-and came to the decision that I will talk to my personal banker about taking him off my account. This should actually be an easy thing to do because he was linked to my account and not the other way around. So, he will still have an account for his paychecks to be deposited into.
Today's unfortunate task will be to take him off the account and tell him no more bailouts from my account.
We'll see...
Today's unfortunate task will be to take him off the account and tell him no more bailouts from my account.
We'll see...
From my experience however, I would make SURE that there is no way any financial or legal anything can be linked to you. I've had a particularly rough ride in this regard and can not emphasize enough that your personal finances can not be too separate.
I would in fact, closed the linked account, open a completely new account, and let him deal with his paychecks.
I would of course, tell him that this has been done (today after you have done it) as he doesn't need to be surprised that his account disappeared.
When you have never been late paying a bill in your life, never had a credit card balance ever, never borrowed money and your financial life is ruined because you are legally linked to a irresponsible or lying person it becomes an untenable situation.
Obviously do what is right for you
I just wanted to share my personal experience.
ps: Personal banker or not they will bail on you if you get in trouble, don't kid yourself.
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Well, if he's doing such a great job at re-entering his recovery, then he won't have any problem paying his own bills from now on, will he?
You're making some wise (albeit difficult) moves, mermaid. Keep up the good work. It's nice that he's trying, but you don't yet have a way to know whether this is a kneejerk reaction to the threat of losing you as an enabler. Only time will tell. Stay the course and you two may be stronger in the long run.
You're making some wise (albeit difficult) moves, mermaid. Keep up the good work. It's nice that he's trying, but you don't yet have a way to know whether this is a kneejerk reaction to the threat of losing you as an enabler. Only time will tell. Stay the course and you two may be stronger in the long run.
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Some of what you are all saying I have done and some of it are things I am working on. I plan on meeting with my banker to find out what my options are. I also must say we have made a little progress on how he handles his finances, but he self-sabotages himself because his self-esteem is in the toilet and we are very opposite in that regard, however I have had to work and continue to work on my own "stuff". Half of his monthly check gets transferred to our joint account where I am the signer on and he is on the account, but rarely if ever uses it. In fact, he doesn't even have a debit card for our joint account.
Everything else (cars, house, retirement, life insurance) is in my name and the sole beneficiary is my son. If something did happen to me he would only get the house and the "stuff" in the house, but the real money (life ins, etc.,) goes to my son.
I am constantly amazed how he is in shock that I would change the passwords or take him off the account even though he is the one that caused all of the drama. I know, it is part of his issues. But, I really wish, like I told him, that I would get comforted by him. That is what I want. I make a very, very good living and money is not an issue here-it is the trust that he takes advantage of and the promises that he never keeps.
I appreciate every single post here it helps me more than you all know. I'm not going anywhere-I'll keep you all updated and try to help others.
Everything else (cars, house, retirement, life insurance) is in my name and the sole beneficiary is my son. If something did happen to me he would only get the house and the "stuff" in the house, but the real money (life ins, etc.,) goes to my son.
I am constantly amazed how he is in shock that I would change the passwords or take him off the account even though he is the one that caused all of the drama. I know, it is part of his issues. But, I really wish, like I told him, that I would get comforted by him. That is what I want. I make a very, very good living and money is not an issue here-it is the trust that he takes advantage of and the promises that he never keeps.
I appreciate every single post here it helps me more than you all know. I'm not going anywhere-I'll keep you all updated and try to help others.
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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Promises that are not kept....
People (out there), if you do not mean to do something, why make a promise?? Why interrupt silence with empty words? We could all avoid so much hurt...
Anyway, mermaid. I am glad you are here. And I am glad you are financially independent, and thinking about your options and your own recovery. I am sad we met under these circumstances but I can see you are a very strong and intelligent woman please keep us posted, we care a lot on this forum.
People (out there), if you do not mean to do something, why make a promise?? Why interrupt silence with empty words? We could all avoid so much hurt...
Anyway, mermaid. I am glad you are here. And I am glad you are financially independent, and thinking about your options and your own recovery. I am sad we met under these circumstances but I can see you are a very strong and intelligent woman
please keep us posted, we care a lot on this forum.
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