Behappy1

I posted this in a response to a post on newcomers. Short context. I was very co-dependent with my addict husband. He was pretty severely addicted to opiates, which resorted to herion. Large amounts of it. And eventually jail for a stint. He was my hs sweetheart and I tried desperately to save him. I pretty much had to file for d to protect our assets and let him fend for himself. Although I wasn't a big drinker, nor does it run genetically in my family - I started drinking. Just to calm down. It eventually took hold of me and I became addicted to alcohol myself. I was a 8 year binge drinker. All the while my kids were in all sports, very active in school etc. I was there for alot, but there was a lot that was missed. And a LOT of damage done because of my choices. I have 22 yo twins. I was a single parent going 100mph trying to work to save us financially and make sure they had all that they needed physically. My xah pretty much left the picture for several years. I am now 1.5 years sober and he still dabbles I think, but is way more coherant than before. I have been the codependent and came full circle to the recovering alcoholic. So I am asking for some input. You'd think I could figure this out myself as I've played all of the roles, but I am asking for some outside insight. Here is a copy/paste from the other thread.

I too struggle with my kids. They are 22 (twins). They are at a stage right now where they are really ruminating in the past. My daughter especially is awfulizing things. Not that they weren't awful at times. Many times. She went to counseling at her university and that seemed to make things worse. From the state that she has been in, I am pretty sure that she painted the worst possible picture. I don't blame her for that, but we had many good times too. Many. I am not sure why, but she's also remembers things that weren't true or didn't happen. i.e. "mom you weren't at xyz event. I had to go by myself.". I WAS there and I WAS sober. I have pictures from it. "Mom, you messed up the soccer team meal". I didn't, it was another mom who dropped the meat and tried to clean it up to serve. I was the one who scrambled to thaw and cook new ground beef for the team. And I did. Granted, there were many things that I weren't there for too. At first, I was frustrated with her counselor. But I realize that a counselor can only work with what they are told and their gut/training.

I have told both kids that I cannot change the past, I would do anything to have that opportunity of a redo for about 8 years of their lives. I was a binge drinker, but it occured at a CRUCIAL time in their growth and development. 12-18 years old. Not that any time isn't crucial. I have apologized a million times. Sincerely. But an apology - I am sorry - 3 words can't undo 1000's of hurtful words, times or events. I have found that this is a fine line that I am walking with them both. They are mad, ticked. I don't blame them at all. It's very easy for them to take it all out on me and be destructive towards me. I have allowed that a little bit, but I also know that I cannot continue to be a whipping post. It is not good for my sobriety (which sounds selfish). But if I lose my sobriety, the ground that I have gained with them will be lost. My daughter was the one who brought me h20 or food when I was sick, who was my biggest supporter when I tried to get better or sober. It stinks that she is not by my side in sobriety.

You know - in re-reading this I am wondering how I sound to others. I would be very open to thoughts. Maybe I am approaching this wrong, maybe I need to think things through differently.

When I was there age, I was just graduating college. I had dreams (with my xah at the time) of 2.5 kids and the white picket fence. I tried to do everything right. But I was young and very naieve. Addiction wasn't really common or so I thought as it is now. Or at least not spoken of on a surface level. My xah started taking an rx for migranes. Darvocet, percocet>oxy, dilauded, fentynal>heroin, fentynal, xanax bars. I had ZERO idea that this was going on initially years ago, but it was. It was as if he took a dive off of the high dive and I jumped in to save him. I posted here for many years on the friends and family as a pretty severe codependent. I am a different screen name now. I guess what I am asking for with my kids is some kind of "outside" input. Input through different eyes or suggestions as to how to mend things as best as I can with my kids. Both are graduating college, well adjusted and GOOD kids. We talk, they come home every now and then, but we are not as close as I'd like. I've said sorry a million times, but being on the receiving end (from xah) that really doesn't mean much. I am 1.5 years sober and I too know what it feels like "waiting for the other shoe to drop". I have lived what they've lived through, but as a wife. Not as a child of an addict/alcoholic. They do have a relationship with their dad, and it's almost better than the one that they have with me. I know that I am the one who did the most damage, because he simply left and entered the world of drug addiction full force. Maybe someone reading this might have some different context/insight or suggestions that I am not seeing. Thanks for reading!

trailmix

Hi Behappy. Well, if you find a solution for this one, please let me know! So no, I have no words of wisdom. I've experienced this (although I'm not a drinker/alcoholic), it can happen in any scenario I think.

I do very much understand the - remembering things that didn't happen or were very different than their memory.

I have a question for you. The anger that they express, is that because they "missed out" on having a "normal" childhood, or about things you did (or didn't do), or do they feel that somehow things that are wrong in their lives now are because of you/that time?

I believe all you can do is keep being as you are. I agree about not being a whipping post!

Behappy1

I was a room mom, a soccer coach, had sleepovers almost every weekend, kids were in soccer, basketball, volleyball, daughter had a horse, 4h, track. Both popular in school, didn't miss out on any of the normal stuff. But they did miss out on a mom who was 100% fully present at all times. My usual scenario was start drinking around 6 pm and go about my business. Usually laundry, cleaning, mowing etc. Get up for work the next day. I felt like I was going 100 mph as a single parent. When they went off to college, it went to 0 mph. My drinking became heavy and more stretches at a time. I had a dui and lost a great career because of it. They felt (rightfully so) shame, embarassment. I was full of anger @ the way my life had turned out with xah. It's weird because I HAVE been in their shoes. But I haven't, because I had awesome parents.

I think, well I know the anger directed towards me and not their dad is because they relied on me. They counted on me. They never did without the necessities, never missed an event. If I was not capable, my parents live just up the road and they stepped in. Not that this matters, but they had all of the trendy clothes, a nice car, a beautiful home. Or I should say, none of the material things should matter, but they do to a teenager. I think I am just an outlet for ALL of their anger right now. Don't get me wrong, we're not estranged or anything like that (though there have been times/weeks that this has been the case).

But I am present now - being the mom I have always been along the way when alcohol wasn't present. I am trying to word this so I'm not minimizing anything, but it's as if they are maximizing everything. I sometimes feel like they act like I had them chained to a post in the basement and beat them. So it has been a very fine line for me to try and not minimize, but also not accept them awfulizing it - if that makes sense. There was a time when I feel like I just took their anger in silence because I felt I deserved it. And I do/did. But at some point there needs to be a line drawn where the gloves are taken off and we start walking in the right direction towards the future and not ruminating/marinating in the past. I also try to remember that although I have very smart, good and level headed kids, they are 22. They don't know it all and their brains are not yet fully developed either. (I've done research on this. lol).

This is also a very critical time because they are getting their wings to fly and it's very hard for me to accept that also. Almost like I feel like I have no use anymore because for years I was BOTH parents. All the while trying to maintain my sobriety, which is THE hardest thing that I have ever done. I think this would have been a tough age for me even without alcohol involved.

Samworriestoo

I can relate to this although I was not the alcoholic in the scenario. My kids were involved in sports and activities. Had friends. I was room mom, team mom, chairperson, etc....I offered our home to kids in trouble. Dealt with the police and CPS.
in the end, one of my kids hates me for what I did. Their perception of the childhood is all bad. They are also an addict/alcoholic and blame me for being "so perfect" and letting all this bad stuff happen around them. My oldest used his childhood as an open book lesson of what he didn't want to become (his father) and the youngest try to take care of me and understand what is happening because I am honest with them.
In the end, I did what I thought was best at the time with the tools I had. I have expanded my tool bag and thrown out a lot of unnecessary ones. I cannot change how they feel but I can keep working on making myself better every day so that they can decide if they want to be in my company or not. I would never force a relationship. I love them. I tried. Their interpretation of that is their own.

trailmix

I hear you Behappy and again, I don't have the answer. I hope when their brains mature that this will start to fall by the wayside, but I haven't found that to be the case.

I didn't have an ideal childhood, my Father was an alcoholic. However, I don't actually blame him or my Mother for anything. They were who they were, I was very independent, by and large I had a lot of fun growing up.

I'm not sure where this blame thing comes from. The perceptions are different, that's for sure, I don't know how you change that or if you should even try. If you try then you are "defensive", or have excuses, can't make any headway there.

At some point I hope your kids will start to see you as an actual person, rather than only their Mom, I think that is key. Now that they are away at school you will probably find that you become more of who you were before you got married (at least that was the case for me and I also married very young). That didn't go over well either lol

Behappy1

To keep this related to FF, I stayed with xah because I did NOT want to dismantle a family. I thought the kids growing up without an intact family was the worst possible thing. I stayed at the cost of my OWN mental health. Looking back, I should left, but I became so very intertwined in saving my xah that I lost myself. I had panic attacks almost daily dealing with him and his addiction. I went to the dr for them and he wanted to rx xanax. I said absolutely not. I will not bring one of the very drugs into my home that I am fighting to get out. (along with percocet, darvocet, oxy, dilauded, fentanyl and who knows what else he ingested). Keep in mind, this was years ago. I left when the kids were 6-7 years old - it was a long fight and the start of my own demise with alcohol.

Point being - I stayed too long. I was fighting a fight that wasn't mine to fight. HIS addiction. I've never done drugs, nor drank other than here or there with dinner or out with friends. Yet, here I sit. A recovering alcoholic. I should have left way earlier than I did.

Behappy1

@trailmix Thank yo
I'm not sure where this blame thing comes from. The perceptions are different, that's for sure, I don't know how you change that or if you should even try. If you try then you are "defensive", or have excuses, can't make any headway there.

Exactly - if I question how they are remembering things (maybe they're inaccurate) or elude that maybe they're wallowing in their own pity party then it appears as minimizing and not validating, which I don't want. With them being twins, they're very close. I do feel that this negativity is being fed by them both on the same hamster wheel. Remember when xyz happened only keeps these negative thoughts @ the surface. Whether they happened the way they remember it or not. Just typing all of this out has helped. I am very willing to listen to any input. Even if it doesn't feel the greatest, that's why I finally posted here. I've been thinking about it for a while now. I think that is why maybe I come across as a little harsh when it comes to addiction. This is THEIR fight. DON'T stick around at the cost of your own mental health. I did and look where it got me. My xah's fight, became my OWN fight with alcohol. I NEVER saw it coming. I could stop at anytime. Until I couldn't.

SparkleKitty

I think you have to let your kids navigate this on their terms, while maintaining boundaries for what kind of behavior and treatment you find acceptable.

I was the kid in this scenario. Yes, my mom did a lot of things right, but it was only when I was *much* older than your kids that I was able to navigate the distinction.

She may be getting facts wrong about when you were there and when you weren't, but that's not really the issue. She gets to have her own experience and her own feelings about her childhood. You're right you can't change the past, and neither can she--she can't change how her developing brain and emotional landscape interpreted and processed things that were happening to her at the time. You don't have to validate things that didn't happen the way you remember, but if you try to invalidate her feelings about how she grew up you will only push her further away. It's not worth arguing over who dropped the meat or whether you were at a particular game, because her having to take care of you while you were sick when she was still a child has left an indelible mark on her that she is not ready to accept yet. It's not hopeless. Forgiveness is always possible. But this is a very complicated issue for adult children of addicts who were parentalized by the people who were supposed to be taking care of them, and 22 might be too early to expect that, as you've already acknowledged.

Of course none of it is worth risking your sobriety over. Acceptance is a two-way street. If you want hers, you need to give yours, and meet her where she's at, rather than where you wish she was.

Eauchiche

Dear BeHappy
First of all, congratulations on your sobriety!!!
It sounds like you have made many attempts to make amends to your kids, Look at it this way: if you were still drinking, they would have something to complain about.

It also sounds like the kids might be playing the victim card.
As I say often, "God ain't got no grandchildren." The kids need to work their own recovery program.

So happy for you for climbing out of several rabbit holes. One day a time!!!!

Behappy1

They are definitely playing the victim card - though I don't think it's on purpose. They also both commiserate together, which is great they have eachother. But it also keeps the 3 of us stuck in that pit. It is a very fine line here that I am walking with them. I don't want to minimize anything, yet I don't want contribute any further to this cesspool either.

trailmix

Yes and if they didn't have each other to commiserate with, they would have friends who have zero experience of any of it, but want to back them up, so again, no headway there.

I would really like to know what sets up the "victim" card, what triggers that.

wyrd

Thing is, it's not your fine line to walk technically. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. When a child turns out ok it's thanks to the father, when there are problems the ancient trope of the psychopathogenic mother gets trodden out. Blegh.

What do they gain from blaming you? Because speaking from experience it does absolutely nothing. Whenever I catch myself blaming my mother for putting on a brave face I remind myself it would have been so, so much worse if she hadn't.
My father managed to completely stay out of the picture emotionally as things went down with my sister's illness and death. My mother lays all the blame on herself and it made her really sick. He drinks, sure, but he's in fairly good health. How nice.

Doesn't the very fact that their behaviour towards you is getting to you totally contradict their perception? Even if some of it was true, what are they getting out of it?

Behappy1

I think a lot of it is entitlement. By wallowing in this pit they can expect more of me, ask more of me. They're both broke college students. I paid for their first 3 years of college. Once they started becoming jerks to me and I became sober I pretty much cut them off financially. I quit paying for extras - auto insurance, copays, rent or gas here or there. I also quit "doing" for them. Making dr appts, dentist appts, getting their vehicles in for repair etc. I did this for 2 reasons. 1 I had created entitled brats. 2 I did more than I should have for them because I felt guilty for my actions (drinking).

It is sad to say that on the surface level, we got along better when I was drinking. I'm trying to fix it, but I don't know how other than to stick to my guns and not engage when the "poor me, or blame game" appears. There is absolutely zero argument from me that I was wrong. 100% wrong. If I could go back, I would in a heartbeat. But I can't. If you took alcohol out of this equation and they were acting like they are for a different reason, I would likely stand up to them and put them both in their place. They BOTH need taken down several notches in reality.

But because alcohol is the "reason". I don't feel that I can or should stand up to them, so I bite my tongue. Mind you, I have stopped allowing them to beat up on me - either by calmly talking through it or removing myself from the situation. I also try to remember that they have very valid reason's for being PO'd. I also know that it can be human nature when I give them in inch and they take a mile. If that makes sense.

trailmix

Yes, if your life isn't going all that well, I guess it's easier to blame the parent(s).

I had an alcoholic father than was totally emotionally unavailable, but it never occurred to me to blame my parents for anything. They were who they were, period. There was lots of good (my Mom). I believe they both did the best they could - can you ask more of a person?

Behappy - your contributions seem amazingly! generous to me, I can see how being cut off could cause resentment. I also believe that letting them fly at some point is incredibly important and that's what I did. I never thought I was overly indulgent but perhaps in some ways I was. So then the "my" life isn't working out all that great so what should you be doing about it and furthermore if you weren't so awful (list 10 things, including going back 20 years) that YOU did and if you hadn't maybe my life would be wunderbar! In fact the fact that you didn't do these things right makes you a horrible person.


Well, the world just doesn't work like that and I thought, through example, that was clear. It was not.

wyrd

You totally make sense, it almost seems like they bear a grudge against you that you got sober and they can't blame you anymore. If they say your addiction basically ruined their childhood, then your sobriety should be all the more reason to be proud of you.

Your story got me thinking. I thought that maybe if I wasn't so alone and had someone who knew exactly what was going on I'd feel better but now I'm unsure if that kind of dynamic wouldn't have done more harm.

I'm sorry about what you're going through. <3

Eauchiche

My family has some of this too.
Dad was the addict.
Today I am well aware of his shortcomings and character defects. I can discuss them without any emotional snags. I say that he was a good man but had some demons.
My two sisters , an amazing tag team, blame him for every negative thing in their lives even though he has been dead since 2001. They became so toxic, I went no contact with them over 7 years ago. One of the best decisions I ever made.

ToughChoices

Thanks for posting about this complicated topic, behappy.

Addiction certainly produces more than its fair share of pain in families, but families can be plenty painful even without addiction! Sometimes I think we focus on the addiction to "easily" explain the resentment/frustrations of growing up, when, in reality, almost everyone (with/without exposure to addiction) feels a certain amount of alienation/resentment towards their families.

I LOVE and dislike my mother. She is not an alcoholic, but she is passive aggressive and controlling. She adores me and supports me and says terrible things about my parenting/hair/method of childbirth/housekeeping skills. I can focus on the negative, or I can focus on the love. My kids, as they grow, can do the same for me. I have both loved them and made real mistakes. Their journey of forgiveness/acceptance/peace with me, is not mine to walk.

The great thing about recovery is that I no longer feel shame and misery for my mistakes (largely because I'm not repeating them). I screwed up. I owned it. I tried to make it right. I'm living my amends. The rest of the path is theirs.

They can choose anger forever. That strikes me as excessive, but I'm not the person in charge of their responses. It is good for me to be reminded that each human spirit has their own experience, ideas, beliefs, pain, etc..... Even if I am an important person in their life, I am not in control of their life.

What is pure love but a desire to see a person understand and embrace themself? That can be a winding road! Perhaps love requires me to sit with the discomfort of being framed (unfairly!!!!) problematically, sometimes. Maybe even for a long time.

This is tough stuff.

Oglsby

I think you have shown a lot of strength by stop paying for everything in their last year. Maybe this is what they are pissed about. I know I am simplifying, but I did find in my own case that when I got sober it was almost like some people in my life acted like I owed them something for tolerating me before. I actually indulged that for a while, until I started to feel used a little bit and I put a stop to that. You seem like a very kind person who has made mistakes like we all have, but really have worked on amends. They will have to get over it sooner or later. There is not one other thing you can do about the past.

Behappy1

I spoke/hung out with both kids last night. We did make some forward movement, which I'm glad for. It became very evident that they are both in a pity party stage. I don't want or mean to minimize this. But idk how long it's beneficial to stay there. Negative, awfulizing their childhood. A "trauma/awful thing" my son remembers is having a sleepover here. I was in a back room by myself drinking and smoking. Door was shut, but my son and his friends were outside and his friend saw me drinking/smoking through a window. While I am very embarassed about that - is that really that bad? Non drinking me would have never been in that state with his friends over. I typically never drank or smoked in public so it would be out of character. But his "friend" prob 10 @ the time had never seen me (his soccer coach) in this state.

I had a girl I went to high school who went through very severe parental abuse. Disgusting things happened to her. This is trauma, or how "I" think of trauma. I know that I cannot define someone's trauma (my son) because there definitely was some trauma. Any words of wisdom to guide him/her out of marinating in this pit? My concern is that he's moving out of state for a bit for college. It's very easy to put this on a shelf and not talk about anything for a year. I am feeling like we've made some movement and I don't want it closed off again. It is very typical for both my kids to "feed off" of eachother with this negativity towards me. I don't necessarily want to control the narritive, but would like to keep it moving in a healthy direction.

ToughChoices

I'd ask myself: "What response would I want from my parent?"

I had a lovely childhood overall, but I was raised in an extremely religious/conservative environment that verged on cultish. I have some enduring emotional scars from the fear (satan, hell, the end of times) that I battled on a daily basis as a kid, and I battle codependency, in part because of the strict gender roles that I was taught. I do not see my "trauma" as being on par with physical or sexual abuse (AT ALL), but it is my life, and these are my scars.

I would love for my parents to:
1.) Bring up the issue. You being willing to initiate/continue the conversation with your son is HUGE, in my book.
2.) Reassure me that they love.
3.) Genuinely listen to my feelings without minimizing them.
4.) Simply state that they are sorry for my pain. That they are imperfect people striving to get better.

Can you let go of narrative control and accept the pain of your choices? Hard work, this parenting stuff.