Confrontation Number 863849
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Confrontation Number 863849
I mentioned my XAHs recent DUI, and the fact he was to get overnight visits with our 4 year old once he hits 6 months of sobriety. I didn’t say anything for weeks, in part enjoying that I knew he was lying when he didn’t know the extent of what information I have, because for once he wasn’t in a position to craft his story specifically to try to contradict or work around whatever information he knew I had. Maybe not enjoying, but not feeling at all manipulated by any garbage he was saying. I was also waiting because I wanted to see if he was going to straight up tell me he had six months of sobriety when I knew it wasn’t true. Last week I decided to just write him a letter explaining that I wasn’t letting him have overnights back and why, and I had it printed to mail today, and last night he brought up the overnights.
He tells me about his plans for Thanksgiving and asks if he can have her overnight on Christmas, which is about when 6 months would hit from the first order. So I said well we’re going to need to talk about that. Are you telling me you’ve been sober? He says he’s complied with the order perfectly. I said, “the order says you have to be sober for six months. I know you haven’t been. I know about the DUI.”
For half a second he looks like I have punched him in the face. And then he tells me he didn’t realize the order required him to actually be sober for six months, just that he had to be sober with his kid. And then he says that the DUI “is being challenged” was invalid. He says the DMV has already given him back his license. I said, “I don’t care whether you’re convicted or not, you told the cops that the reason you were drunk was because you were drinking vodka out of your backpack after the accident. So even if you weren’t drunk in the accident, I have the police report where are you told the cops you were drunk. So even if I assume you never had another drink, you’re still not going to have six months sober until April”. I told him he’s going to need to tell me what his sobriety date is, and when he’s going to hit six months, I want him to be tested three times a day on sober link for six weeks leading up to getting overnights back, and then for the six weeks after the overnight start. And after that we can go back to just testing before during and after his time with her. he’s getting teary and telling me he wants to talk to me about it, and I said, I wrote you a letter it’s very clear. He wouldn’t take it from me. But he seem like he was going to agree to the testing.
But he was already talking like the date would be six months from the date of the DUI, which is pretty unbelievable if his story is that he didn’t realize he was supposed to be sober, and yet he just magically got sober the day after his “undeserved” DUI? This whole thing of figuring out exactly what information I have, and then back in the lie up to the first second I can’t prove he’s lying is so tiresome.
But the reality is, whatever date he decides to pretend as his sobriety date, it will be a lie. Passing a breathalyzer three times a day for six weeks is a pretty high bar weather that happens four months from now or six. And given that he has consistently made terrible choices that have made it pretty straightforward for me to protect the kid, I feel like I will take my reprieve until the spring, and just see what else happens between now and then.
But clearly, he has convinced himself that drinking isn’t a death sentence for him, if he has completely admitted to me that he isn’t even trying not to drink. And I just have to hope he runs his own clock out before he can manage to get our kid in danger.
he’s going to have some elaborate story when he picks her up before his daytime visit tomorrow, and I’m going to hand him the letter and tell him we aren’t having a conversation about it because all he does is lie or call me names, and he can respond in writing, he can have his lawyer call me, or we can talk about it in court. One good thing of this conversation starting in person is that a deprived him of the opportunity to digest the letter and then come up with a story about why I am a terrible person that he could spit at me. He can try it now, but he’s already admitted he’s been drinking, and already halfway agreed to the testing
schedule I set out.
One last thing, he grumbled during our conversation and he doesn’t even know why I was contacted about this. Clearly upset that he didn’t manage to hide it from me. Does he not know what a police blotter is? It’s not like the CHP called me and said hey, your ex husband is still an *******. It was literally in the newspaper.
He tells me about his plans for Thanksgiving and asks if he can have her overnight on Christmas, which is about when 6 months would hit from the first order. So I said well we’re going to need to talk about that. Are you telling me you’ve been sober? He says he’s complied with the order perfectly. I said, “the order says you have to be sober for six months. I know you haven’t been. I know about the DUI.”
For half a second he looks like I have punched him in the face. And then he tells me he didn’t realize the order required him to actually be sober for six months, just that he had to be sober with his kid. And then he says that the DUI “is being challenged” was invalid. He says the DMV has already given him back his license. I said, “I don’t care whether you’re convicted or not, you told the cops that the reason you were drunk was because you were drinking vodka out of your backpack after the accident. So even if you weren’t drunk in the accident, I have the police report where are you told the cops you were drunk. So even if I assume you never had another drink, you’re still not going to have six months sober until April”. I told him he’s going to need to tell me what his sobriety date is, and when he’s going to hit six months, I want him to be tested three times a day on sober link for six weeks leading up to getting overnights back, and then for the six weeks after the overnight start. And after that we can go back to just testing before during and after his time with her. he’s getting teary and telling me he wants to talk to me about it, and I said, I wrote you a letter it’s very clear. He wouldn’t take it from me. But he seem like he was going to agree to the testing.
But he was already talking like the date would be six months from the date of the DUI, which is pretty unbelievable if his story is that he didn’t realize he was supposed to be sober, and yet he just magically got sober the day after his “undeserved” DUI? This whole thing of figuring out exactly what information I have, and then back in the lie up to the first second I can’t prove he’s lying is so tiresome.
But the reality is, whatever date he decides to pretend as his sobriety date, it will be a lie. Passing a breathalyzer three times a day for six weeks is a pretty high bar weather that happens four months from now or six. And given that he has consistently made terrible choices that have made it pretty straightforward for me to protect the kid, I feel like I will take my reprieve until the spring, and just see what else happens between now and then.
But clearly, he has convinced himself that drinking isn’t a death sentence for him, if he has completely admitted to me that he isn’t even trying not to drink. And I just have to hope he runs his own clock out before he can manage to get our kid in danger.
he’s going to have some elaborate story when he picks her up before his daytime visit tomorrow, and I’m going to hand him the letter and tell him we aren’t having a conversation about it because all he does is lie or call me names, and he can respond in writing, he can have his lawyer call me, or we can talk about it in court. One good thing of this conversation starting in person is that a deprived him of the opportunity to digest the letter and then come up with a story about why I am a terrible person that he could spit at me. He can try it now, but he’s already admitted he’s been drinking, and already halfway agreed to the testing
schedule I set out.
One last thing, he grumbled during our conversation and he doesn’t even know why I was contacted about this. Clearly upset that he didn’t manage to hide it from me. Does he not know what a police blotter is? It’s not like the CHP called me and said hey, your ex husband is still an *******. It was literally in the newspaper.
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" And I just have to hope he runs his own clock out before he can manage to get our kid in danger."
Sigh, I hope he runs his own clock out too. It seems exhausting to have to monitor evidence of his drinking to protect your kid.
I'm laughing a bit about the police blotter but not a lot as it is so sad.
Strength and courage to you Digging!
Sigh, I hope he runs his own clock out too. It seems exhausting to have to monitor evidence of his drinking to protect your kid.
I'm laughing a bit about the police blotter but not a lot as it is so sad.
Strength and courage to you Digging!
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Wow, deja vu for me reading this:
1. "The DUI doesn't count": my ex tried this one with a DUI that turned into a stayed charge (because of an ongoing and unrelated court challenge to the legality of roadside license suspension). He seemed to believe that the fact that he drove his car straight into a concrete median and was indisputably over the limit when the police got there and breathalyzed him didn't count - the only thing that "counted" was that this one incident did not result in a conviction on his record. (Fortunately, our court order contained the phrase "alcohol-related incident", which this clearly was, in addition to all the other police-involved alcohol-related incidents he racked up).
2. I too found out about this particular incident from a public source - it wasn't literally in the paper, but if you go to the courthouse with a name and a birthdate because you have a persistent feeling that something is off, criminal charges are a matter of public record. He was indignant that I was "invading his privacy". My view was that if something is public, it isn't private. And he was more than welcome to do the same thing, run my name and birthdate at the courthouse and see what came up.
3. "And I just have to hope he runs his own clock out before he can manage to get our kid in danger". That is exactly what happened - he ran out his clock, very much as your ex is doing now.
1. "The DUI doesn't count": my ex tried this one with a DUI that turned into a stayed charge (because of an ongoing and unrelated court challenge to the legality of roadside license suspension). He seemed to believe that the fact that he drove his car straight into a concrete median and was indisputably over the limit when the police got there and breathalyzed him didn't count - the only thing that "counted" was that this one incident did not result in a conviction on his record. (Fortunately, our court order contained the phrase "alcohol-related incident", which this clearly was, in addition to all the other police-involved alcohol-related incidents he racked up).
2. I too found out about this particular incident from a public source - it wasn't literally in the paper, but if you go to the courthouse with a name and a birthdate because you have a persistent feeling that something is off, criminal charges are a matter of public record. He was indignant that I was "invading his privacy". My view was that if something is public, it isn't private. And he was more than welcome to do the same thing, run my name and birthdate at the courthouse and see what came up.
3. "And I just have to hope he runs his own clock out before he can manage to get our kid in danger". That is exactly what happened - he ran out his clock, very much as your ex is doing now.
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Well, he came to pick her up this morning and says he did a lot of thinking, I’ve been nothing but fair with him, I have only been looking out for her best interest,he doesn’t wanna go to court, and he will agree to whatever terms I give him. So I think I’m gonna keep the letter, and just send an email and say six months of sobriety from the date you designate, you told me on November 8 you didn’t even know you were supposed to be sober so I will accept any date from that point on he will commit to writing, which should give me 6 months from today at least. And then 6 weeks of massive testing before overnights and we shall see if he can pull that off. So, no fight right now. He probably knows he’s screwed if he tries to fight me.
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Yeah we’ve never talked about it. The way it’s worded, he’s required to go to AA. And he’s required to be sober to get the overnights. It doesn’t technically tie the overnights to the AA, but I am going to mention that in my final proposal. But honestly, it’s not like I can make him be sober. I can insist that he prove he’s going to AA, but he can still do that drunk if he decides to do it. I don’t know. I haven’t really figured out how that requirement should fit into everything as far as what I insist on.
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I doubt it. I expect he will pick an arbitrary date to state that he became sober on, but until this weekend he has been talking about “his sobriety” and getting his life back together and stuff, actively trying to mislead me into thinking he was already sober. I was pretty stunned when he didn’t say “oh that was an anomaly“ but instead told me he thought he didn’t have to be sober. I’m sure it’s because he was caught flat-footed, but I think it was the truth that he isn’t even trying. Lying about it to me seems like the polar opposite of actually working on it in any real way, so I assume he’s just decided either it’s not going to kill him or he doesn’t care.
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I think that establishing that he is totally sober will just take you down the rabbit hole of monitoring constantly (and arguing constantly, and eventually spending lots of $$ on lawyers). The best you may be able to do is to require "continuous disclosure" of his alcohol intake during parenting times (so - breathalyzer testing before, during and immediately after any visits, at two -hour intervals). What he does outside of visits is up to him. If he manages to fulfill these expectations for six months (unlikely, as he seems to be going downhill rather than up), then you can talk about expanding his access to Kid.
The exception to the whatever-you-do-on-your-time-is-your-business rule is "alcohol related incidents" - in my order I defined those as anything which involved first responders (so car crashes, DUIs, seizures, domestic police calls, etc) which a reasonable person would believe were related to his consumption of alcohol, or anything which would have placed Kid at risk of physical or psychological harm had she been there when it happened. An "alcohol related incident" sets the clock back to zero, as does failing or skipping a breathalyzer before/during/after visits.
(I'm quoting all of this from my own court order).
I'd stay away from requiring attendance at AA meetings. Easy to fake attendance (you can buy 30-day chips on eBay), hard to prove someone is or is not attending an anonymous fellowship. Also, do you really want to inflict a(nother) drama-prone self-pitying drunk in full creative-denial mode on your local 12-Step group?
The exception to the whatever-you-do-on-your-time-is-your-business rule is "alcohol related incidents" - in my order I defined those as anything which involved first responders (so car crashes, DUIs, seizures, domestic police calls, etc) which a reasonable person would believe were related to his consumption of alcohol, or anything which would have placed Kid at risk of physical or psychological harm had she been there when it happened. An "alcohol related incident" sets the clock back to zero, as does failing or skipping a breathalyzer before/during/after visits.
(I'm quoting all of this from my own court order).
I'd stay away from requiring attendance at AA meetings. Easy to fake attendance (you can buy 30-day chips on eBay), hard to prove someone is or is not attending an anonymous fellowship. Also, do you really want to inflict a(nother) drama-prone self-pitying drunk in full creative-denial mode on your local 12-Step group?
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Yeah, I have him on monitoring during the visits for the court order. I think it’s right that I won’t have any real way of establishing sobriety and it’s kind of a fools errand. It’s a little disingenuous of me to insist on the six months of sobriety restarting because I know it won’t happen, but for me the value is in delaying the overnights. by the way our current order is written, since I can’t prove constant sobriety or not, it’s sort of turns out to be a “no alcohol related incidents” order, because the incidents are the thing that break the alleged chain of sobriety.
in any event, no. I don’t think forcing him on the people who are actually trying to better themselves is going to help anyone. Probably will just give him access to even more women in a vulnerable position he can lie to you when trying to line up the next girlfriend after this one dumps him.
in any event, no. I don’t think forcing him on the people who are actually trying to better themselves is going to help anyone. Probably will just give him access to even more women in a vulnerable position he can lie to you when trying to line up the next girlfriend after this one dumps him.
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Well he officially agreed to restarting the 6 month clock when we had the conversation about it, not when he got the DUI. So I have almost 6 whole months before I need to worry about overnights.
In the meantime, he’s has his maybe 6th cancellation for stomach issues. Two weeks ago he cancelled for that reason, and then again today because he was in the ER with uncontrollable vomiting and a fever last night. He texted me a photo of his wristband so I believe he went in. Tells me it’s a bug. Sure sounds to me like any break he got from falling apart physically as a result of the few months booze free is wearing off. This is very much one of the symptoms he had before is big hospitalization a year ago.
I’m sure he lied in the ER, probably lied to me about what they said (if they took half a second to check his files). But every time I get a text in the middle of the night I expect it is him or someone on his behalf telling me he’s in the hospital for another episode of acute liver failure. This was a more minor version of that, but I can’t help but think it’s starting exactly as expected.
It feels ghoulish to be watching from the sidelines for when he falls apart completely. It makes me sad for him. Sad for my kid that this is the dad I gave her. Relieved again I didn’t buy it when he said he would change. And then I think, it sure looks like I will be right that six months will be long enough for him to be completely and obviously unable to care for her and I won’t have to give him more chances to damage her.
I know we all know how rare and difficult it is for someone this far down the rabbit hole to make a change and save their own life. But it is still shocking to watch this happen a second time, when no reasonable person could deny the cause and where it ends after what happened last time. Yes, sure, alcoholics are not reasonable people. But anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to tell where this ends up. And yet here it goes.
In the meantime, he’s has his maybe 6th cancellation for stomach issues. Two weeks ago he cancelled for that reason, and then again today because he was in the ER with uncontrollable vomiting and a fever last night. He texted me a photo of his wristband so I believe he went in. Tells me it’s a bug. Sure sounds to me like any break he got from falling apart physically as a result of the few months booze free is wearing off. This is very much one of the symptoms he had before is big hospitalization a year ago.
I’m sure he lied in the ER, probably lied to me about what they said (if they took half a second to check his files). But every time I get a text in the middle of the night I expect it is him or someone on his behalf telling me he’s in the hospital for another episode of acute liver failure. This was a more minor version of that, but I can’t help but think it’s starting exactly as expected.
It feels ghoulish to be watching from the sidelines for when he falls apart completely. It makes me sad for him. Sad for my kid that this is the dad I gave her. Relieved again I didn’t buy it when he said he would change. And then I think, it sure looks like I will be right that six months will be long enough for him to be completely and obviously unable to care for her and I won’t have to give him more chances to damage her.
I know we all know how rare and difficult it is for someone this far down the rabbit hole to make a change and save their own life. But it is still shocking to watch this happen a second time, when no reasonable person could deny the cause and where it ends after what happened last time. Yes, sure, alcoholics are not reasonable people. But anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to tell where this ends up. And yet here it goes.
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Yup... Been there too..
Will be talking with him this week, WITH a mediator to remind him of his court ordered contact. Remind him that any additional contact is up to me as I have custody... And he lost custody through a drunken assault.
I'll have to sit there and listen to him whinge about how unreasonable I'm being... Its not good for the kids.. Its not fair.. I let you have the coffee machine...
I'll have to sit there and listen to him whinge about how unreasonable I'm being... Its not good for the kids.. Its not fair.. I let you have the coffee machine...
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Originally Posted by DiggingForFire 
It feels ghoulish to be watching from the sidelines for when he falls apart completely. It makes me sad for him.
I hope you can keep focusing on kid and your own life.
big hug.
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Oh geez - very sorry for you. It is like having a front-row seat at a slow-motion horror movie, and you can’t get up to get popcorn during the worst parts.
FWIW my ex did the same thing with texting me random bits of “proof” that he was in the hospital for vomiting, difficulty breathing, chest pains, shingles, herpes infection in his eyes (yes, I know - way TMI) etc. I’m not sure what the point was - to produce the narrative “I’m not a drunk, I’m just someone with a lot of health issues”?
It really is shocking to me that someone can be an intelligent person and cannot be unaware that drinking is killing them - but still go to such lengths to deny that knowledge in order to keep drinking. This cognitive dissonance is an aspect of the addict hardwiring that I will never understand, because the brain I use to try to understand it (mine) is not hardwired the same way.
FWIW my ex did the same thing with texting me random bits of “proof” that he was in the hospital for vomiting, difficulty breathing, chest pains, shingles, herpes infection in his eyes (yes, I know - way TMI) etc. I’m not sure what the point was - to produce the narrative “I’m not a drunk, I’m just someone with a lot of health issues”?
It really is shocking to me that someone can be an intelligent person and cannot be unaware that drinking is killing them - but still go to such lengths to deny that knowledge in order to keep drinking. This cognitive dissonance is an aspect of the addict hardwiring that I will never understand, because the brain I use to try to understand it (mine) is not hardwired the same way.
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