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Confrontation Number 863849

Old 11-09-2019, 07:45 PM
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Confrontation Number 863849

I mentioned my XAHs recent DUI, and the fact he was to get overnight visits with our 4 year old once he hits 6 months of sobriety. I didnít say anything for weeks, in part enjoying that I knew he was lying when he didnít know the extent of what information I have, because for once he wasnít in a position to craft his story specifically to try to contradict or work around whatever information he knew I had. Maybe not enjoying, but not feeling at all manipulated by any garbage he was saying. I was also waiting because I wanted to see if he was going to straight up tell me he had six months of sobriety when I knew it wasnít true. Last week I decided to just write him a letter explaining that I wasnít letting him have overnights back and why, and I had it printed to mail today, and last night he brought up the overnights.

He tells me about his plans for Thanksgiving and asks if he can have her overnight on Christmas, which is about when 6 months would hit from the first order. So I said well weíre going to need to talk about that. Are you telling me youíve been sober? He says heís complied with the order perfectly. I said, ďthe order says you have to be sober for six months. I know you havenít been. I know about the DUI.Ē

For half a second he looks like I have punched him in the face. And then he tells me he didnít realize the order required him to actually be sober for six months, just that he had to be sober with his kid. And then he says that the DUI ďis being challengedĒ was invalid. He says the DMV has already given him back his license. I said, ďI donít care whether youíre convicted or not, you told the cops that the reason you were drunk was because you were drinking vodka out of your backpack after the accident. So even if you werenít drunk in the accident, I have the police report where are you told the cops you were drunk. So even if I assume you never had another drink, youíre still not going to have six months sober until AprilĒ. I told him heís going to need to tell me what his sobriety date is, and when heís going to hit six months, I want him to be tested three times a day on sober link for six weeks leading up to getting overnights back, and then for the six weeks after the overnight start. And after that we can go back to just testing before during and after his time with her. heís getting teary and telling me he wants to talk to me about it, and I said, I wrote you a letter itís very clear. He wouldnít take it from me. But he seem like he was going to agree to the testing.

But he was already talking like the date would be six months from the date of the DUI, which is pretty unbelievable if his story is that he didnít realize he was supposed to be sober, and yet he just magically got sober the day after his ďundeservedĒ DUI? This whole thing of figuring out exactly what information I have, and then back in the lie up to the first second I canít prove heís lying is so tiresome.

But the reality is, whatever date he decides to pretend as his sobriety date, it will be a lie. Passing a breathalyzer three times a day for six weeks is a pretty high bar weather that happens four months from now or six. And given that he has consistently made terrible choices that have made it pretty straightforward for me to protect the kid, I feel like I will take my reprieve until the spring, and just see what else happens between now and then.

But clearly, he has convinced himself that drinking isnít a death sentence for him, if he has completely admitted to me that he isnít even trying not to drink. And I just have to hope he runs his own clock out before he can manage to get our kid in danger.

heís going to have some elaborate story when he picks her up before his daytime visit tomorrow, and Iím going to hand him the letter and tell him we arenít having a conversation about it because all he does is lie or call me names, and he can respond in writing, he can have his lawyer call me, or we can talk about it in court. One good thing of this conversation starting in person is that a deprived him of the opportunity to digest the letter and then come up with a story about why I am a terrible person that he could spit at me. He can try it now, but heís already admitted heís been drinking, and already halfway agreed to the testing
schedule I set out.

One last thing, he grumbled during our conversation and he doesnít even know why I was contacted about this. Clearly upset that he didnít manage to hide it from me. Does he not know what a police blotter is? Itís not like the CHP called me and said hey, your ex husband is still an *******. It was literally in the newspaper.


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Old 11-09-2019, 08:36 PM
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" And I just have to hope he runs his own clock out before he can manage to get our kid in danger."

Sigh, I hope he runs his own clock out too. It seems exhausting to have to monitor evidence of his drinking to protect your kid.

I'm laughing a bit about the police blotter but not a lot as it is so sad.

Strength and courage to you Digging!
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Old 11-09-2019, 10:39 PM
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Wow, deja vu for me reading this:

1. "The DUI doesn't count": my ex tried this one with a DUI that turned into a stayed charge (because of an ongoing and unrelated court challenge to the legality of roadside license suspension). He seemed to believe that the fact that he drove his car straight into a concrete median and was indisputably over the limit when the police got there and breathalyzed him didn't count - the only thing that "counted" was that this one incident did not result in a conviction on his record. (Fortunately, our court order contained the phrase "alcohol-related incident", which this clearly was, in addition to all the other police-involved alcohol-related incidents he racked up).

2. I too found out about this particular incident from a public source - it wasn't literally in the paper, but if you go to the courthouse with a name and a birthdate because you have a persistent feeling that something is off, criminal charges are a matter of public record. He was indignant that I was "invading his privacy". My view was that if something is public, it isn't private. And he was more than welcome to do the same thing, run my name and birthdate at the courthouse and see what came up.

3. "And I just have to hope he runs his own clock out before he can manage to get our kid in danger". That is exactly what happened - he ran out his clock, very much as your ex is doing now.
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Old 11-10-2019, 10:28 AM
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Well, he came to pick her up this morning and says he did a lot of thinking, Iíve been nothing but fair with him, I have only been looking out for her best interest,he doesnít wanna go to court, and he will agree to whatever terms I give him. So I think Iím gonna keep the letter, and just send an email and say six months of sobriety from the date you designate, you told me on November 8 you didnít even know you were supposed to be sober so I will accept any date from that point on he will commit to writing, which should give me 6 months from today at least. And then 6 weeks of massive testing before overnights and we shall see if he can pull that off. So, no fight right now. He probably knows heís screwed if he tries to fight me.
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Old 11-10-2019, 10:35 AM
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Your order also requires him to attend AA 5 times a week as well, before overnights can be granted, how's that going?

I would say you are rather safe here for the time being.
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Old 11-10-2019, 10:53 AM
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Yeah weíve never talked about it. The way itís worded, heís required to go to AA. And heís required to be sober to get the overnights. It doesnít technically tie the overnights to the AA, but I am going to mention that in my final proposal. But honestly, itís not like I can make him be sober. I can insist that he prove heís going to AA, but he can still do that drunk if he decides to do it. I donít know. I havenít really figured out how that requirement should fit into everything as far as what I insist on.
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Old 11-10-2019, 11:16 AM
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No I agree, I wouldn't even worry about that part at all right now, might be something to fall back on later if needed.

He doesn't sound like he is getting sober anytime soon?
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Old 11-10-2019, 11:23 AM
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I doubt it. I expect he will pick an arbitrary date to state that he became sober on, but until this weekend he has been talking about ďhis sobrietyĒ and getting his life back together and stuff, actively trying to mislead me into thinking he was already sober. I was pretty stunned when he didnít say ďoh that was an anomalyď but instead told me he thought he didnít have to be sober. Iím sure itís because he was caught flat-footed, but I think it was the truth that he isnít even trying. Lying about it to me seems like the polar opposite of actually working on it in any real way, so I assume heís just decided either itís not going to kill him or he doesnít care.
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Old 11-10-2019, 12:35 PM
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I think that establishing that he is totally sober will just take you down the rabbit hole of monitoring constantly (and arguing constantly, and eventually spending lots of $$ on lawyers). The best you may be able to do is to require "continuous disclosure" of his alcohol intake during parenting times (so - breathalyzer testing before, during and immediately after any visits, at two -hour intervals). What he does outside of visits is up to him. If he manages to fulfill these expectations for six months (unlikely, as he seems to be going downhill rather than up), then you can talk about expanding his access to Kid.

The exception to the whatever-you-do-on-your-time-is-your-business rule is "alcohol related incidents" - in my order I defined those as anything which involved first responders (so car crashes, DUIs, seizures, domestic police calls, etc) which a reasonable person would believe were related to his consumption of alcohol, or anything which would have placed Kid at risk of physical or psychological harm had she been there when it happened. An "alcohol related incident" sets the clock back to zero, as does failing or skipping a breathalyzer before/during/after visits.

(I'm quoting all of this from my own court order).

I'd stay away from requiring attendance at AA meetings. Easy to fake attendance (you can buy 30-day chips on eBay), hard to prove someone is or is not attending an anonymous fellowship. Also, do you really want to inflict a(nother) drama-prone self-pitying drunk in full creative-denial mode on your local 12-Step group?
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Old 11-10-2019, 01:35 PM
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Yeah, I have him on monitoring during the visits for the court order. I think itís right that I wonít have any real way of establishing sobriety and itís kind of a fools errand. Itís a little disingenuous of me to insist on the six months of sobriety restarting because I know it wonít happen, but for me the value is in delaying the overnights. by the way our current order is written, since I canít prove constant sobriety or not, itís sort of turns out to be a ďno alcohol related incidentsĒ order, because the incidents are the thing that break the alleged chain of sobriety.

in any event, no. I donít think forcing him on the people who are actually trying to better themselves is going to help anyone. Probably will just give him access to even more women in a vulnerable position he can lie to you when trying to line up the next girlfriend after this one dumps him.
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Old 12-01-2019, 07:43 PM
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Well he officially agreed to restarting the 6 month clock when we had the conversation about it, not when he got the DUI. So I have almost 6 whole months before I need to worry about overnights.

In the meantime, heís has his maybe 6th cancellation for stomach issues. Two weeks ago he cancelled for that reason, and then again today because he was in the ER with uncontrollable vomiting and a fever last night. He texted me a photo of his wristband so I believe he went in. Tells me itís a bug. Sure sounds to me like any break he got from falling apart physically as a result of the few months booze free is wearing off. This is very much one of the symptoms he had before is big hospitalization a year ago.

Iím sure he lied in the ER, probably lied to me about what they said (if they took half a second to check his files). But every time I get a text in the middle of the night I expect it is him or someone on his behalf telling me heís in the hospital for another episode of acute liver failure. This was a more minor version of that, but I canít help but think itís starting exactly as expected.

It feels ghoulish to be watching from the sidelines for when he falls apart completely. It makes me sad for him. Sad for my kid that this is the dad I gave her. Relieved again I didnít buy it when he said he would change. And then I think, it sure looks like I will be right that six months will be long enough for him to be completely and obviously unable to care for her and I wonít have to give him more chances to damage her.

I know we all know how rare and difficult it is for someone this far down the rabbit hole to make a change and save their own life. But it is still shocking to watch this happen a second time, when no reasonable person could deny the cause and where it ends after what happened last time. Yes, sure, alcoholics are not reasonable people. But anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to tell where this ends up. And yet here it goes.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:42 PM
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Yup... Been there too..

Will be talking with him this week, WITH a mediator to remind him of his court ordered contact. Remind him that any additional contact is up to me as I have custody... And he lost custody through a drunken assault.

I'll have to sit there and listen to him whinge about how unreasonable I'm being... Its not good for the kids.. Its not fair.. I let you have the coffee machine...
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DiggingForFire View Post


It feels ghoulish to be watching from the sidelines for when he falls apart completely. It makes me sad for him.
I was thinking this as I started reading your message and then you said it . . .so sad . . . .and nothing anyone can do.

I hope you can keep focusing on kid and your own life.

big hug.
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Old 12-01-2019, 10:18 PM
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It is a tragedy, that's for sure. Unfortunately the insanity of alcoholism can become all consuming and that may be where he is.

I'm sorry you have to be involved and watch this unfold.
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Old 12-02-2019, 10:39 AM
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Oh geez - very sorry for you. It is like having a front-row seat at a slow-motion horror movie, and you canít get up to get popcorn during the worst parts.

FWIW my ex did the same thing with texting me random bits of ďproofĒ that he was in the hospital for vomiting, difficulty breathing, chest pains, shingles, herpes infection in his eyes (yes, I know - way TMI) etc. Iím not sure what the point was - to produce the narrative ďIím not a drunk, Iím just someone with a lot of health issuesĒ?

It really is shocking to me that someone can be an intelligent person and cannot be unaware that drinking is killing them - but still go to such lengths to deny that knowledge in order to keep drinking. This cognitive dissonance is an aspect of the addict hardwiring that I will never understand, because the brain I use to try to understand it (mine) is not hardwired the same way.
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