How to characterize this behavior
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How to characterize this behavior
So when he drinks, particularly hard liquor, he picks text fights. Often they’re about shaming me for not being a good parent. I like to be able to label and explain to myself what he is doing that is so irritating. I don’t know why, but it validates me somehow. I didn’t respond to his BS tonight.
So he took pictures of the dirty dishes to point out that I hadn’t made the kids help (I had; this was round 2 of the dishes). Then he put the kids’ words in quotes: “I made dinner.”. “Someone took all the good chips.”. (I think to shame me that they’re somehow lazy and spoiled and it’s my fault.) Then he said it was x o clock and “what are you doing to get the kids in bed on time?”. Then he texted the time again and asked me if X kid was in bed.
I feel like it’s infantilizing/trying to control me, like I’m a wayward employee or child who is “in trouble” with him. How would you describe the behavior?
So he took pictures of the dirty dishes to point out that I hadn’t made the kids help (I had; this was round 2 of the dishes). Then he put the kids’ words in quotes: “I made dinner.”. “Someone took all the good chips.”. (I think to shame me that they’re somehow lazy and spoiled and it’s my fault.) Then he said it was x o clock and “what are you doing to get the kids in bed on time?”. Then he texted the time again and asked me if X kid was in bed.
I feel like it’s infantilizing/trying to control me, like I’m a wayward employee or child who is “in trouble” with him. How would you describe the behavior?
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It sounds like a variant of attention-seeking to me. He's trying to provoke you to defend yourself (it was the second round of dishes, kid x is just about to get into bed), and thereby get pulled into a hostile interaction with him where he gets to tell you all the bad things you're doing as a parent.
Or maybe a weird attempt to "equalize" things between you and thereby minimize the impact of his drinking - okay, so I'm a drunk but YOU leave dirty dishes in the kitchen so you're just as bad!
No matter what the intent of the behavior is, I think it deserves to be ignored. Good for you for not responding - it's maddeningly self-righteous and it's really hard to not snap back.
Or maybe a weird attempt to "equalize" things between you and thereby minimize the impact of his drinking - okay, so I'm a drunk but YOU leave dirty dishes in the kitchen so you're just as bad!
No matter what the intent of the behavior is, I think it deserves to be ignored. Good for you for not responding - it's maddeningly self-righteous and it's really hard to not snap back.
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Hey
Sasha I read your narrative about how others perceived him and I have the same deal but mine is still alive. He’s a ******* hero to the high school teachers for advocating for them in front of the school board, and he loves to show me tributes from colleagues or supervisees. Only the kids and I, my mom and my therapist know the truth. And you guys.
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Lunchbox.....My reaction is similar to Sasha's...…
Basically, I think...under the umbrella of "deflecting"....a favorite technique in the alcoholic's handbook....It is to take attention off of them by putting the spotlight on someone else....
Often, they may pick a subject that you are particularly sensitive to....in this case, it sounds like it might be your parenthood.....or, even, your "housekeeping duties".....
They seem to know where all your hot buttons are.....and love to push them....
Also, by starting a fight with you, it gives them a handy excuse to justify their drinking.....(any excuse will suffice)…..
Basically, I think...under the umbrella of "deflecting"....a favorite technique in the alcoholic's handbook....It is to take attention off of them by putting the spotlight on someone else....
Often, they may pick a subject that you are particularly sensitive to....in this case, it sounds like it might be your parenthood.....or, even, your "housekeeping duties".....
They seem to know where all your hot buttons are.....and love to push them....
Also, by starting a fight with you, it gives them a handy excuse to justify their drinking.....(any excuse will suffice)…..
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Yeah ok I can see that. How did you guys handle it?
Originally Posted by dandylion 
Lunchbox.....My reaction is similar to Sasha's...…
Basically, I think...under the umbrella of "deflecting"....a favorite technique in the alcoholic's handbook....It is to take attention off of them by putting the spotlight on someone else....
Often, they may pick a subject that you are particularly sensitive to....in this case, it sounds like it might be your parenthood.....or, even, your "housekeeping duties".....
They seem to know where all your hot buttons are.....and love to push them....
Also, by starting a fight with you, it gives them a handy excuse to justify their drinking.....(any excuse will suffice)…..
Basically, I think...under the umbrella of "deflecting"....a favorite technique in the alcoholic's handbook....It is to take attention off of them by putting the spotlight on someone else....
Often, they may pick a subject that you are particularly sensitive to....in this case, it sounds like it might be your parenthood.....or, even, your "housekeeping duties".....
They seem to know where all your hot buttons are.....and love to push them....
Also, by starting a fight with you, it gives them a handy excuse to justify their drinking.....(any excuse will suffice)…..
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Lunchbox.....
Yikes. I just red your 2nd. post. It reminds me of my grandfather, on my father's side....He was a PhD educator...and highly praised by the students and entire community....while, to his family, he was stingy and rigid (not a drinker)…
This was highly resented by his wife and kids....
LOl...since you are searching for a label....I have heard this kind of behavior ….being one way in public, and the opposite, at home...."Street Angel--House Devil"...….
Yikes. I just red your 2nd. post. It reminds me of my grandfather, on my father's side....He was a PhD educator...and highly praised by the students and entire community....while, to his family, he was stingy and rigid (not a drinker)…
This was highly resented by his wife and kids....
LOl...since you are searching for a label....I have heard this kind of behavior ….being one way in public, and the opposite, at home...."Street Angel--House Devil"...….
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Unconditional love is something you give your children, not your spouse.
You can't ever "win" with him, there is no hope of any kind of equilibrium in your home, but you already know that. Basically you either go along with him and he makes your life hell, or don't go along with him and he makes your life hell.
No way to win, no way to fix this really. If you stand up to him or ignore him he takes it out on your children correct?
Do you see any way around that?
You can't ever "win" with him, there is no hope of any kind of equilibrium in your home, but you already know that. Basically you either go along with him and he makes your life hell, or don't go along with him and he makes your life hell.
No way to win, no way to fix this really. If you stand up to him or ignore him he takes it out on your children correct?
Do you see any way around that?
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Hi Lunchbox, this is not so much how to characterise his behaviour as how to handle it. When I read what he texts *I* felt defensive, so I guess I understand a fraction of what you feel.
This sort of behaviour is straight out abuse, and it must be harmful to your health. Please consider talking to a domestic violence help line - they might be able to help you handle this kind of abuse. You're already not engaging, but I have the feeling that even if you found the perfect way to deal with it, it would come back at you in another way.
And why is he texting you when you live in the same house? Why isn't he putting the kids to bed?
This sort of behaviour is straight out abuse, and it must be harmful to your health. Please consider talking to a domestic violence help line - they might be able to help you handle this kind of abuse. You're already not engaging, but I have the feeling that even if you found the perfect way to deal with it, it would come back at you in another way.
And why is he texting you when you live in the same house? Why isn't he putting the kids to bed?
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I know it’s irritating, but how is it abuse? I mean I think he’s been emotionally abusive at times, but how is this series of texts abusive? Also he is texting in the same house because he’s drunk and he’s ignoring my numerous requests not to do that. He’s not putting them in bed because of
1) our “agreed upon division of labor” (his words. He tends to repeat stock phrases that I now hate)
2) I didn’t want him to anyway because he was drunk and he fights with them often enough sober. I’ve said I will handle it.
I should add that they’re teens.
1) our “agreed upon division of labor” (his words. He tends to repeat stock phrases that I now hate)
2) I didn’t want him to anyway because he was drunk and he fights with them often enough sober. I’ve said I will handle it.
I should add that they’re teens.
Originally Posted by FeelingGreat
Hi Lunchbox, this is not so much how to characterise his behaviour as how to handle it. When I read what he texts *I* felt defensive, so I guess I understand a fraction of what you feel.
This sort of behaviour is straight out abuse, and it must be harmful to your health. Please consider talking to a domestic violence help line - they might be able to help you handle this kind of abuse. You're already not engaging, but I have the feeling that even if you found the perfect way to deal with it, it would come back at you in another way.
And why is he texting you when you live in the same house? Why isn't he putting the kids to bed?
This sort of behaviour is straight out abuse, and it must be harmful to your health. Please consider talking to a domestic violence help line - they might be able to help you handle this kind of abuse. You're already not engaging, but I have the feeling that even if you found the perfect way to deal with it, it would come back at you in another way.
And why is he texting you when you live in the same house? Why isn't he putting the kids to bed?
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My mom was a special ed high school teacher who was nice to everyone--kids and teachers--but she became toxic and mean as her alcoholism progressed to my brother and myself when she got home. She also had a reputation publicly as a selfless superstar.
It was a secret as she was a single parent and "enlisted" us to even lie by calling her in sick sometimes when she was hungover. I guess "Mommy has a cold" sounds more believable from an 11year old girl. Meanwhile she then had a full day to drink and tell me later that the house was a mess because of us lazy dirty kids. I often spent weekends and after school cleaning instead of playing.
Shame was a big tool in her drunk toolbox too. I found so many notebooks I had hidden as a little girl writing about what a "bad" daughter I was and that I had to do better to take care of mom when I cleaned out her hoard-level house when she died.
Don't discount verbal abuse as abuse Lunchbox. It causes lifelong damage as well as the misery anger and resentment of the moment.
It isn't how loved ones treat each other as partners or parents.
It was a secret as she was a single parent and "enlisted" us to even lie by calling her in sick sometimes when she was hungover. I guess "Mommy has a cold" sounds more believable from an 11year old girl. Meanwhile she then had a full day to drink and tell me later that the house was a mess because of us lazy dirty kids. I often spent weekends and after school cleaning instead of playing.
Shame was a big tool in her drunk toolbox too. I found so many notebooks I had hidden as a little girl writing about what a "bad" daughter I was and that I had to do better to take care of mom when I cleaned out her hoard-level house when she died.
Don't discount verbal abuse as abuse Lunchbox. It causes lifelong damage as well as the misery anger and resentment of the moment.
It isn't how loved ones treat each other as partners or parents.
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Yeah Lunchbox, it is abuse.
I agree that some counseling around this issue would be good for you and the kids. The Domestic Violence hotline can help.
I've seen a few people in my life who are like this, and it doesn't even always involve alcohol. It's just powerless cowardly people who cannot be nice to those they love for whatever reason. I think it's ego out of control. I left one guy who displayed this kind of behavior. To me it seemed like he was the most fearful person I'd ever met, though he tried to puff himself up and lord it over me when we were alone. When out in public, Mr. Sweetheart- Mr. Confidence. It was very disorienting for me. I couldn't handle it.
It eventually did turn physical when I got fed up and didn't go along with it.
My mother was the same way. Don't get me started on all the dysfunction in that relationship, and I first ran away at age 11, then again at 14, and I moved out permanently as soon as I was legal...it's really confusing behavior. And it's not love.
I agree that some counseling around this issue would be good for you and the kids. The Domestic Violence hotline can help.
I've seen a few people in my life who are like this, and it doesn't even always involve alcohol. It's just powerless cowardly people who cannot be nice to those they love for whatever reason. I think it's ego out of control. I left one guy who displayed this kind of behavior. To me it seemed like he was the most fearful person I'd ever met, though he tried to puff himself up and lord it over me when we were alone. When out in public, Mr. Sweetheart- Mr. Confidence. It was very disorienting for me. I couldn't handle it.
It eventually did turn physical when I got fed up and didn't go along with it.
My mother was the same way. Don't get me started on all the dysfunction in that relationship, and I first ran away at age 11, then again at 14, and I moved out permanently as soon as I was legal...it's really confusing behavior. And it's not love.
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Piping in as the alcoholic in recovery...my immediate thought is that it's pretty classic manipulative, blaming, distracting stuff we do. It's terrible for others and internally demonizing for us. And I would agree with those who said it abusive behavior. I can relate to some of the 'outside the house v inside' stuff shared, too, growing up with an alcoholic mom in a wealthy, lovely fam. Which were true adjectives, but had a lot of others that went along with them.
I don't know how long he has been drinking, but even if the kids are teens, we know that 'wrong' stuff is happening.
Are you going to a support group? Apologies if I missed that, but especially since kids are involved, I know folks close to me had to establish - and keep- boundaries around my behavior...which is a tall order. I cannot tell you if moving out or kicking him out etc are solutions for you - but I can tell you that help for you and the kids is crucial. It doesn't solve the problems in the dysfunctional family but it can have long term and crucial support that we take into adulthood. Or don't.
Take care of yourself.
I don't know how long he has been drinking, but even if the kids are teens, we know that 'wrong' stuff is happening.
Are you going to a support group? Apologies if I missed that, but especially since kids are involved, I know folks close to me had to establish - and keep- boundaries around my behavior...which is a tall order. I cannot tell you if moving out or kicking him out etc are solutions for you - but I can tell you that help for you and the kids is crucial. It doesn't solve the problems in the dysfunctional family but it can have long term and crucial support that we take into adulthood. Or don't.
Take care of yourself.
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Originally Posted by Lunchbox1
I know it’s irritating, but how is it abuse?
This really is a toxic situation. How are you coping? Have you detached enough for it not to depress you? I can't help thinking it's not good for you.
A couple of years ago I had a boss who was unable to do anything except question and criticise everything I did at work, and my the time we broke up for Christmas I was a complete mess. In the end we all ganged up and reported him to HR. I'm pretty sure I couldn't have handled it much longer. That's why I'm projecting a bit on what you're going through.
Look after yourself.
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I read someplace that when a narcissist complains (I'm not diagnosing him as a narcissist) his words are a reflection of himself since he can't look externally. Ignore his behavior the best you can. I've been doing the complete opposite. If you can do it safely. He's not happy but it is a boundary I'm trying to enforce. I've been getting up and leaving the house. I've been dealing with this behavior since last week and throughout our marriage. It gets tiring. H wants to keep the toxic status quo so he will pick fights to maintain this. He has expectations of me but I'm not to have any expectations of him in his household.
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My original request was how to explain why this behavior is a
problem; I don’t want to focus on what people think I should do about meetings, this marriage, etc. sorry if I misdirected the convo. I’m trying to put my finger on what’s wrong with it.
He’s very slippery, often going up to but not crossing an obvious line, and he should have been a lawyer in terms of how well he argues himself free from culpability. So: you think it’s abuse because it’s a stream of criticism. You think he’s trying to provoke me: I do too but I can’t read his mind. Whether or not he is, the texts are irritating and I want to label why.
problem; I don’t want to focus on what people think I should do about meetings, this marriage, etc. sorry if I misdirected the convo. I’m trying to put my finger on what’s wrong with it.
He’s very slippery, often going up to but not crossing an obvious line, and he should have been a lawyer in terms of how well he argues himself free from culpability. So: you think it’s abuse because it’s a stream of criticism. You think he’s trying to provoke me: I do too but I can’t read his mind. Whether or not he is, the texts are irritating and I want to label why.
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I would characterize his behavior as alcoholic and abusive.
The texts are irritating because no one likes or deserves to be subjected to a constant stream of criticism, especially when they are doing their best and the other person's expectations are not reasonable.
All of that being said, labeling the behavior doesn't give you any more control over it than not labeling the behavior. There is nothing you can say or do that will make him change, be nicer, or understand. This is who he is.
The texts are irritating because no one likes or deserves to be subjected to a constant stream of criticism, especially when they are doing their best and the other person's expectations are not reasonable.
All of that being said, labeling the behavior doesn't give you any more control over it than not labeling the behavior. There is nothing you can say or do that will make him change, be nicer, or understand. This is who he is.
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I guess I would rephrase what I said then, in terms of more specific "what is this behavior" and "what to do" (in AA we are directed for suggestions not advice, so bear that in mind):
The behavior is classic alcoholic when actively drinking. Causing emotional roller coasters are our specialty. For me, I got worse and worse as far as how I treated others and only I could change that- they could choose whether to be around, be financially entangled (parents, boyfriends, for example), or create new tolerance and therefore behaviors of their own.
Folks said to ignore- I would have a hard time with that but certainly would try to apply it.
Focus on your emotional needs and those of the kids, ie the support and counseling suggestions
I'd add boundaries around household habits- or, new "rules" if that's what you'd like to try (ie as far as the distribution of labor which sounds really taxing and imbalanced to me)
And, whatever you consider his behavior to be (ie abusive or not) - the thing is what are YOU going to do? Everything from ignoring to leaving/kicking him out would be on the spectrum of solutions.
And to your very last comment - figuring out why is torturous. For me, it kept me drinking because I wanted to just figure out "why" then it "wouldn't be a problem." For those (sober people) around me, them trying to figure out my why drove them crazy and didn't help them feel better or find peace. I had to give that up to get sober. They had to give it up to give me the chance to do that and rebuild a relationship.
The behavior is classic alcoholic when actively drinking. Causing emotional roller coasters are our specialty. For me, I got worse and worse as far as how I treated others and only I could change that- they could choose whether to be around, be financially entangled (parents, boyfriends, for example), or create new tolerance and therefore behaviors of their own.
Folks said to ignore- I would have a hard time with that but certainly would try to apply it.
Focus on your emotional needs and those of the kids, ie the support and counseling suggestions
I'd add boundaries around household habits- or, new "rules" if that's what you'd like to try (ie as far as the distribution of labor which sounds really taxing and imbalanced to me)
And, whatever you consider his behavior to be (ie abusive or not) - the thing is what are YOU going to do? Everything from ignoring to leaving/kicking him out would be on the spectrum of solutions.
And to your very last comment - figuring out why is torturous. For me, it kept me drinking because I wanted to just figure out "why" then it "wouldn't be a problem." For those (sober people) around me, them trying to figure out my why drove them crazy and didn't help them feel better or find peace. I had to give that up to get sober. They had to give it up to give me the chance to do that and rebuild a relationship.
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