Route164

Hi group!
I am curious how others interpret or use the following passage in their spiritual life.

"The fact is that most alcoholics have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically non-existent ."

My Step One left me convicted that i cannot keep myself clean and sober; even sober I am powerless over picking up that first drink.

I "choose" to enlarge my spiritual life and my relationship with God, basically live the steps and completely let God solve the drink problem.

I asked an old timer today at a meeting what people mean when they say they "stay away from the first drink" or choose to not drink. He told me "sure, we have a choice." If we have a choice why continue to go to meetings?

A guy asked me to sponsor him and I want to make sure I am clear on this. I feel like if I have a choice I dont need to be in AA. I surrender the problem COMPLETELY to God, I cease fighting alcohol all together. If I can wake up and keep myself clean and sober there really is no need for me to be in AA. I also consoder myself recovered. The great paradox !

Best to all
Thanks for being here!
J

tomsteve

[QUOTE=Route164;3433390]Hi group!
I am curious how others interpret or use the following passage in their spiritual life.

"The fact is that most alcoholics have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so-called will power becomes practically non-existent ."

My Step One left me convicted that i cannot keep myself clean and sober; even sober I am powerless over picking up that first drink.

I "choose" to enlarge my spiritual life and my relationship with God, basically live the steps and completely let God solve the drink problem.

I asked an old timer today at a meeting what people mean when they say they "stay away from the first drink" or choose to not drink. He told me "sure, we have a choice." If we have a choice why continue to go to meetings?

A guy asked me to sponsor him and I want to make sure I am clear on this. I feel like if I have a choice I dont need to be in AA. I surrender the problem COMPLETELY to God, I cease fighting alcohol all together. If I can wake up and keep myself clean and sober there really is no need for me to be in AA. I also consoder myself recovered. The great paradox !

you say in the openeing that you cannot keep yourself clean and sober. you say near the end "if" you can keep yourself clean and sober. your thinking got you to the point you went to AA and your thinking aint gonna get ya sober.


what are you recovered from?
i go to meetings to help others and see what happens to people that stop goin to meetings.

Route164

Sorry I wasn't clear --- I meant if I can now stay sober on my own choice there is no need for me to go to AA and work the program. I cannot do this on my own.
Recovered from the seemingly hopeless state of mind and body.
My question is do we regain the power of choice ?

keepfinding2

I'm not quite sure what the question is here?

Route164

Maybe I am making it too complicated on myself!
Over thinking !
I would delete the OP but not sure how ...

tomsteve

I meant if I can now stay sober on my own choice there is no need for me to go to AA and work the program. I cannot do this on my own

can you stay sober on your own choice?

Route164

No, I cannot stay sober on my own choice.
I make the choice to live a spiritual life, go to meetings, work with others and turn the drink problem over to A higher power.
It seems if I could choose to stay sober on my own I would not need to do the above mentioned things.. I would be like non alcoholics.

Route164

I guess I can choose but I do believe there could come a time where my only defense is a Higher Power and since I do not know when that time might arrive I try my darnedest to stay surrendered . To proceed as if I can't stay sober by my choice.

Mark75

Well, I approach it like this...

If I turn my will and life over to my higher power, then I don't get to choose anymore. I don't get to and hence, I don't have to... choose. It's not an option. I don't worry about it... When I can do this, I feel the weight coming off my shoulders... Freedom to choose or the freedom to not have to choose. I choose (LOL) the latter.

A good third step, in other words.

That's how I work it anyway.

awuh1

I think of this a bit differently than some perhaps. It’s my belief that we are never without choice. We make thousands of choices every day. The question is what guides those choices. If it’s a God of my understanding, then what is that Gods will for me to do? My job is to seek a better understanding of Gods will so I can conform my behavior to that will. In a given situation there might be 10 choices that are clearly against the will of God as I understand God, and 4 alternatives that are in keeping with that will. I have 14 choices and 4 are good ones.

In other words I do not turn over choice but allow it (based on my spiritual condition) to be guided by a power greater than myself.

Veritas1

Mark, I am in between 2 and 3.

What does a good third step look like to you?

I know it's more than saying the third step prayer, right?

I keep asking God please remove the fear, the resentments...try to remember to ask to be shown how to solve my problems, etc.

Just how do you turn your will and your life over to God?

Is it more than prayer?

I do pray.

Thanks Mark

Tommyh

my sponsor tells me I cannot drink even if i wanted too
study the book,you will find reference saying the same.Check out the last of Chapter 4 for starters.

God`s Grace prevents us from drinking,from physically reaching out picking up that first drink.
If it was left up to us,there would be no Grace involved.It would be human power.

Understanding the power and role of God`s Grace will make it clearer.

think about it

Gottalife

Hi veritas,

it is more than prayer, it is a decision to take action, and the action called for in the Big Book is a strenuous effort to be rid of the things that had been blocking us (from God). How soon after the third step? At once!

When you tackle the fourth is when you know you have taken the third.

tomsteve

I know it's more than saying the third step prayer, right?

"Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him"

there is only one period in this step and that is at the end of the sentence so there is more than just making a decision. there is action.my will is my thoughts and my life is my actions. i turn them over to God and start doing His will. then i have to keep seeking what his will is for me in every situation and when crap thinkin comes along, turn it over.

Boleo

In my case I am beyond human aid, including my own human aid. I not only had no choice when I relapsed, I still have no choice now that I am years away from my last drink.

What keeps me sober is a Spiritual Awakening that has totally eliminated the need to make that choice in the first place ( see page 85). Meetings are not what keeps me sober. Practicing spiritual principles in all my affairs keeps me sober.

Meetings are one of many opportunities I have to practice patience, love and tolerance for other alcoholics and carry my message to them. However, I can can find other venues for it if necessary.

Route164

Thanks For input Boleo,
I fell it would be a delusion to think that I have the free will to choose my next drink.
I relapsed after a year and a week or so and honestly I do not even recall my first drink, it could have been vodka, wine etc. Point is I was not spiritually fit. My spiritual fitness and relationship to HP keeps me sober.
My thought is that if I can rely on my choice to take or not take first drink why would I practice the principals ? I could but it would not be a matter of life and death.

keepfinding2

I'm sure that you can stay sober by choice. We all have free will. Working any type of program is really up to you. Do whatever works best for you.

I can definitely say that it is my choice not to drink. I choose not to because, like so many others on this site, I'm just not that good at handling alcohol.

Mark75

My third step, of course, is an ever ongoing work in progress, as in the 10-12... Progress.

Along with the idea that I am doing God's will, and that I stop trying to screw that up by asserting my own myopic will... I have to try and understand that the outcome and/or results of whatever I am praying about is not up to me and on some level, none of my business... Acceptance that I do the best I can, align my will with God's to the best of my ability and then...what is, is. And, you know, it's often quite good, or at least better than whatever I could have made with my own self centered schemes and micromanagement.

Detachment is an important part of this process... Not apathy, not at all. Rather detachment in a spiritual sense.... I hope Boleo can help here, as I learned this from him and I don't explain it so well.

But all of this requires, for me, an understanding of who I am and who I am not... ie... Humility... how do I accept God's will for me if I don't understand who I am in this world and what my job is in His great plan?

Again, progress not perfection... And I have no idea what His great plan is... My concept of His plan for me, for all of us, is hard to explain, and it's always changing... And it's both more and less than it seems.... LOL... OK, I'm way off track now...

What people told me about moving on with the steps and that more will be revealed was exactly right... I didn't understand, really, who I am in this world until I did some inventory and cleaned house... But I had to actually do it, move forward in the steps, before I believed them. LOL.

Thanx Veritas.

Route164

I choose stay sober by turning my will over to God and submitting to the program of action. Anytime my free will kicks in I try to surrender it back to God.
A moment of freedom for me was when I realized God is everything or nothing it. Those aren't my words but it is my experience. My willingness, my motivation to inventory and help others are ALL the grace of God. When I realize of myself I am nothing, my life has nothing to do with staying away from the first drink but drawing closer to God.
So my choice to stay sober and work the program is ultimately from the higher power.

Veritas1

Thank you everyone.

I said my third step prayer last night.

I have been "done" with step two now for more than a week, but I stalled at moving forward.

I stopped calling sponsor.

Fear that I cannot trust anyone really came up for me.

Best to stay to myself, and all that.

I almost drank yesterday.

Bought a tv and the thought was about going home to put together the tv, and I saw myself in the living room drinking watching the tv. ( the thought was alot like a holiday, when you have an image of the tv, the celebration, the drinking, the food, like that....the delusion....the sickness, is not there, in the delusion, until God shows up and helps me see the delusion, or my own memory kicks in....must be God to stop me in those moments). The thought was about what other people do, but I am not being rational, because not everyone thinks about how drinking would make their new tv purchase and installing their new tv purchase at home would be made much better by drinking! I do that. I am the one that pulls it all down on myself and others. Out of nowhere.

(Thank God, I also had a thought of being sick the next day in front of that tv, from drinking too much. Thank God also that the recent exercise my sponsor had me do....the "what happens when I drink" list....came up for me...and I just started talking myself through it, by saying, yeah, but when I drink I get sick...and one more thing another lady taught me about not judging my insides by other's outsides....I know I am not saying that right.

Like, if I see people drinking....that is their outsides, but my insides are different from them. I can't judge my insides by their outsides. (?) What they are doing is not my barometer for what I can do. I might as well hit myself in the head with a hammer if I drink. I will get a headache, I will drink too much, it will start a daily cycle of drinking all summer if I pick up a drink and start drinking again.

~

I don't know what happened.

My non alcoholic husband mentioned that he saw a person buying 6 bottles of tequilla, and do you know why they bought so many, because they saw the good price at this store, and my head went to "yes" a margarita would be very good. Yes, other people are buying booze, I should too.

I said, "I want a drink, or I could really use a cocktail."

Husband said...."No, you don't. You just need something to eat. Let's go get a nice lunch."

I felt like ...oh, he is on my side. He must get that I am trying not to drink, because he is telling me, reminding me it's better I don't drink.

I came home, and drank a big glass of apple juice and had something to eat.

I said prayers.

I was able to put together the tv, etc...and not have to drink.

I am upset about how close I came again.

The problem is not removed.

There was no God, or nothing I learned about AA when the drink thought came.

(and I think I do "alot" with regard to my sobriety...I mean I come to SR daily, I read literature...)

but

I had stopped going to meetings, interacting with other AA's, lately...

the thought is

"you really should stop talking about yourself, telling everyone all about your life, it's not good."

Anyway.

Here I am again.

I guess the "real me" is always going to want that damn drink.