Maro99

Here's a little about myself and what is going on.. I am a 29 year old male. I started taking opiates about two years ago for back pain and the high was just an added bonus. I started off slowly with loratab and progressed to taking 15 to 30 mg's of oxycodone. I never really started taking pills every day until about 6 months ago when my Dad passed away. He died of cancer and I got my hands on his Morphine (40, 30 mg pills). After about 3 weeks to a month those were gone and ive been taking anywhere between 90 and 250 MG of either oxy or morphine a day ever since.

After seeing how much I was spending and tired of being dependent on pills I decided enough is enough and went to a doctor and got perscribed Suboxen. I will have been on Suboxen for two weeks tomorrow. I was perscribed 24mg a day but dropped myself to 16mg after the first week. The past couple of days I have been doing alot of searching online about Suboxen and have come across countless horror stories of people trying to come off of Suboxen. In many cases it seems the longer you are on Suboxen the harder it is to get off, which is why I am here looking for advice.

Should I try to get off the Suboxen ASAP before I end up in the same situation I was with the opiates? I found "The Thomas Recipe" online which looks like it may be good to help alleviate some of the withdrawal symptoms. I just don't want to make the mistake of using Suboxen for to long just to realize I am in the same situation I was in before I started using Suboxen. I have also read that withdrawal from Suboxen can last up to 3x longer than oxy withdrawls. Any advice/opinions that anyone can give me will be greatly appreciated. Sorry for such a long post.. lol

Thanks

NoWhereGirl

I'm on it too, this is my second go round in fact, but I'm not ready to go off of it yet, despite all the horror stories I've heard as well and there are TONS. I got so scared a month or so ago about it that I tried to taper myself and didn't do well, in fact I failed so badly I went back to using even worse (opiates are my DOC as well, everything I could get my hands on along with coke towards the end there too).

Two weeks isn't really that long; it's barely enough for it to level out in your system and know it's working or not (I hope it is, have you noticed a difference?) at least that's my experience with it. I wouldn't start worrying about that yet, cross that bridge whyen you feel it's right in front of you, not before like I did and fall off without a life jacket! I was on it for over six months last year and doing great when I got scared and tried to stop on my own because of what I read online. This is now week one for me, again.

I guess I'm saying I can relate but don't have any real advice as to what you "should" do except perhaps be completely and totally honest with your prescribing doctor about all this, your fears, your hopes, everything- and see what they say in your situation, because when you get to the point of change I think that only you and they will know the best thing to do in the situation when the time comes. I pushed it, and I regret it and had to start all over because I was not able to do it myself, but I know that having learned the hard way. I listened to every horror story and believed it, without taking the big picture into consideration or my own situation and thought I knew best and better than my doctor. I didn't.

I went back to my doctor completely honest and they appreciated my candor so I know they have my best interest at heart based on their reaction. Whether or not I'm on this for awhile, the alternative right now is a million times worse for me so I'm willing to stick with it, not listen to the nay-sayers who aren't in my shoes, and do what is right for me and only me, not anyone else. If and when the time comes to taper, they'll help me do it the right way. Maybe that day will never come or maybe it will be right arond the corner but I trust that I will know so right now, I'm really not worrying about things that haven't happened yet. All that does is cause stress I don't need while I'm trying to recover and get back to good habits and be okay after years of bad habits and not being ok. I guess I view suboxone as a crutch, like a cast for a broken leg. When I feel mended I'll work on rehabilitating the leg, but for now I can't walk without it and I won't try to remove it myself thinking I know best, because I don't and it broke even worse than it was when I started. I'm not trained in suboxone, but the doctor I go to and whom I trust is. I don't feel they're only in it for the money like I've heard some are, and they are not telling me I'll be on it for life because that would make me suspicious for sure. I might be, I just don't know and it's too soon to tell. Depending on what you're being told by them, you can only use your best judgement there. I'm in a wait and see mode. so far, so good.

I guess my point is, which probably isn't really helpful, is that you can only do what's right for YOU based on your unique situation. Nobody but you knows what that is and while we all can give advice all day long (you will hear lots of opinions but remember that everyone has one just like... you know) I just take what I can use, dump or modify the rest and do what I feel is right for me. What's right for me or you is not going to be right for someone else, and vice versa. I say be easy on yourself and don't let the fearmongers get to you too badly like they did me, because they weren't the ones having to deal with it one way or the other. I was.

That said (hope I wasn't too preachy!) I say be nice to yourself, hang in there, try not to worry and keep reading and posting. This is a great place with lots of kind people from all experiences who have all kinds of advice so you may find what you are looking for, or not, but only you will know. I guess I think if you aren't sure, maybe it's not the right time, is all. That's just how it is for me based on my experience now.

Maro99

Thanks for the reply.. Yes the Suboxen has been working great and I havent really had any withdrawl symptoms since day two of taking it. The thing is, when I decided to go with the Suboxen I was under the impression that I would be able to take it for a while and taper down slowly and be able to just stop without having any withdrawal symptoms at all. After searching the web it appears that is the furthest thing from the truth, and the longer I stay on it the worse the withdrawal will be. All of the stories I have read have got me thinking, why should I waste all of this time and money with Suboxen when in the end I will still have to go threw the hell of withdrawal either way.

I am to the point now where im thinking I should taper for a couple of weeks and just go threw the withdrawals now before they get much worse by prolonging my Suboxen use. "The The Thomas Recipe" which I referenced in my first post suggests using Valium (or another benzodiazepines such as Klonopin, Librium, Ativan or Xanax) as well as other vitamins and supplements to ease the withdrawal symptoms. Which I am seriously considering before I get in to deep with Suboxen. Thanks again for your post and if anyone else has any other suggestions or opinions that has gone through something similar I look forward to hearing from you.

If anyone is interested in what the "Thomas Recipe" is just do a google search and plenty of info about it will come up. I was going to post a link but I dont have enough posts yet to post links.

NoWhereGirl

No prob well, I can only speak for myself that I haven't been told the WDs will be worse later on as opposed to any other time once on the stuff except if I don't do it correctly by going slowly the way they say, and go too fast all at once without supervision like I did, so I don't know if that's true or not, but I totally get your point! They have told me there is a way to do it that isn't hell on earth, and maybe they're just blowing smoke up my bum to get me to take them but I have to trust someone with far more experience with it than myself and because I can't trust myself yet, lol!

All I know is that when I tried myself, I had gotten down really low on the sub to not have the same kind of problems I had before physically with the opiates but I wasn't ready to be off my sub in a mental or emotional way becuase I hadn't dealt with that side, partly due to my other habits and environment so that was what got me. Honestly though, I see more horror stories on the web than anywhere else and I'm not saying that is not an experience some have had by any means, but I also know not everyone has the same experience, whether it's this, opiates or anything else - Your Mileage May Vary.

I've heard a lot about that recipe and that people have had success on it. It has been mentioned here. However, I've personally from experience had problems with benzos and had horrible WDs on those (which I didn't realize at the time, of course) which were just as bad as any other horror story about opiates, Suboxone or anything else, and they are addictive too, so that is not a route that I want to go down again personally and end up dealing with that again too in a different way.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't perhaps? I guess I'm choosing the only one so far that has given me the least amount of problems, which is this. Whatever you choose, I just hope you do it safely and under supervision by a professional, that is what they are there for. Good luck! I'll be curious to hear other opinions as well, because I haven't seen a lot of others on Suboxone around here, and what I have seen hasn't been positive so I haven't talked much about it except in passing myself to avoid stirring the pot which I hope I haven't because my disclaimer is, again, this is MY personal experience with it only.

Dee74

Hi and welcome Maro

Keep in mind that, while members can share our experience here, we can't give you medical advice, by our rules.

If you're unsure of which way to go, I hope you'll discuss your options with your prescribing doctor and get their input

D

Maro99

Thanks, again.. I have an appointment with the Suboxen doctor tomorrow so I will talk to him about some of my concerns and see what he has to say. Although im not expecting much to come from it because its clear that he sees Suboxen as a "Miracle Drug" or at least he try's to make it look that way. Im really considering tapering down over the next 2 weeks and just going cold turkey with the "Thomas Recipe" as well as a few other hopefully help full things I have found during my search. I will decide after my meeting tomorrow. Thanks for taking the time to post and tell me about your situation. I look forward to hearing from you and anyone else that would like to join in the conversation. I will update the thread with what I decide and we will see how it goes from there.

I understand that, im just looking for opinions on what worked best for other people that have gone through a situation similar to mine.

Thanks

CleanBreeze

The amount of time you're on Suboxone doesnt matter at all, it wont make anything worse and it wont be any harder to come off if youre on it 1 day or 5 years.. There has been MANY people that have come off Subs and had next to no withdrawals and there has been people that suffer horrible withdrawals, Its all about how slow you taper and how well you let your body adjust to each dose decrease before decreasing more. There are great threads about tapering on Suboxforum.com & Addictionsurvivors.org.. The key to tapering is to go as low as possible before jumping, alot of people swear by doing a liquid taper. The relapse rate for short term use of Subs is very high, Its usually recommended to stay on Sub for as long as you need to fix the underlying issues with your addiction which include counseling, whether it be 1 on 1, group or both then after you have worked on everything within yourself you can start your taper off. I myself am on Subs and I know I wont be on them forever but I will be for a while. I wouldnt call it a "miracle pill" because its not, it does help me though and I would be alot worse off without it. There are a couple sites that focus on Subs with real peoples stories and experiences, look into some of those and get educated a little before making your decision, by the sounds of what you have said it sounds like you've only seen the anti-suboxone sites. The more educated you are about your treatment, the better off you will be and the more prepared you will be to live life without drugs. Your doctor is a good source for info too im sure and for any questions you might have. Please dont believe everything you hear about subs though, its not for everyone but it could be the only thing that could save your life also. Good luck in your treatment though and I hope everything goes well for you. Feel free to contact me if you need anything.

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Suboxone is a good detox drug but now I see a lot of people are using it for a maintenance drug. Suboxone was never meant to be a maintenance drug. As a maintenance drug it is just trading one opiate for another. I came off of 45mg. of methadone for 2 years using suboxone. 6 weeks of tapering down until the last dose was just a few crumbs. It was an easy detox. I did this with a DR. The cost of this detox was over $1,000. Not cheap but it did the job. This is my experience with suboxone. Good luck on your journey. logo

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What I have learned about Suboxone after during 6 months of research. At one time buprenorphine (suboxone and buprenex) were used for pain in the US. It was not strong enough for US pain and the US quit using it 25 years ago. It was still used in the UK. The UK found out that it was a great detox drug. The UK had such good luck with it that it was sent to the US as a detox drug. A drug company latched on to it and with no R&D put it out as Suboxone with opiate blocker and Buprenex a few years ago. Why Suboxone warks so well for detox it is a antaginist and a antiantaginist. What this means is goes into your body and does its job and then leaves your body very fast. That alone makes it a good detox drug. It was never meant to be a maintenance drug. It is just another opiate drug. This is some of what I have learned about it. Love and Respect Logo

Maro99

My story has had a great outcome.. So I just want to share with everyone in hopes it may help some of you.. I have been opiate and Suboxone free for 10 full days to this point and I was able to do it with little to no withdrawal symptoms. Here is what I did if anyone is interested. As you can see from my OP I used opiates quite heavily for over a year (mainly morphine and roxys.) I tried the "Thomas recipe" as well as a couple of variations to it to get my success.

First I ordered some .5 mg xanax and all of the vitimans etc. as listed in the "Thomas Recipe" I did exactly as directed except for a couple of things. In the recipe he says to take loperamide pills to help with the diarrhea you get from the withdrawals. I did get the lopermide but read somewhere else that lopermide is actually a opiate that is sold over the counter because it is an opiate that won't get you high since it cant cross the blood brain barrier as other opiates can. I will provide links explaining all of this better, I was just trying to give you the jist of it. So along with using the xanax and vitamins I would also take 40 mg's of lopermide pills a day which equated to 20 pills. All of these things combined got me through these ten days with little to no withdrawal symptoms. I was only on the suboxone for about 6 or 7 weeks so that might have made it easier for me since I have heard horror stories about coming off long term suboxone use. Im doing so good that I just started exercising regularly and am also quitting smoking (1 day and counting lol) I will post the info I found about the lopermide in the post below this one since I cant seem to find a link but have it saved in a wordpad file. I can not post links due to my post count.. Just do a google search for The Thomas Recipe and you can easily find it.

Maro99

Below is more in depth info about using the loperamide and as I posted earlier the Thomas Recipe can easily be found by searching google. If anyone has any questions for me feel free to ask.




Aborted All Opiate Withdrawal - Loperamide
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SWIM stopped 90% of his withdrawal symptoms and breezed through the withdrawal stage like it was a joke. He would like to tell you his experience:



Background:


SWIM was recently put on heavy doses of oxycodone for a surgery and was maintained on doses of 60mg oxycodone for several months. His doctor decided it was time for him to stop taking the oxycodone, and refused to write him any prescriptions.

He was forced into complete and unexpected abstinence. Of course, this was going to cause serious withdrawal problems for him.

Being in the field of medicine, SWIM knew and understood the working of many various pharmaceuticals and chemicals on the shelves of today's pharmacies and supermarkets. He knew that Loperamide, (otherwise known as Immodium), is actually a close cousin of fentanyl and lies well-within the opiate category of medications.


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What loperamide is and how it works:


Loperamide is an anti-diarrheal OTC (over the counter) medication. Opiates give constipation, and because loperamide is an opiate that won't get you high, it is sold OTC to relieve the runs.

Loperamide is an opiate whos chemical structure is too big to cross something called the Blood Brain Barrier (BBB). Morphine, oxycodone, fentanyl, heroin, and other opiates easily cross the BBB to activate pleasure receptors in the brain. There are also other opiate receptors located throughout the body, but they are not protected by a barrier like the BBB. Because Loperamide does NOT cross the BBB, it will not get you high. HOWEVER, Loperamide WILL and DOES work on the other opiate receptors located throughout the body.

When a person withdrawals off opiates, the Central Nervous System is thrown into chaos due to the absence of the opiate. Because loperamide can still activate the opiate receptors not protected by the BBB, it has the potential to alleviate almost all withdrawals without continuing an addiction or getting a person high.

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SWIM's experience:


Knowing that Loperamide is an opiate, SWIM went to the nearest grocery store pharmacy and bought a bottle of 48 2mg generic loperamide tablets. SWIM waited until he was in full withdrawal (sweats, nausea, shakes, irritability, panic attacks, etc...) and SWIM took 20 of the 2mg pills. This totals to 40mg of loperamide. 30 minutes after consuming the 40mg of loperamide, 90% of the withdrawals were COMPLETELY GONE.

You heard me right. 90% of swim's withdrawals were GONE. Swim felt normal, and even got a restful nights sleep. Swim was able to dodge almost all of the withdrawals, and the withdrawal process was easy as pie. No suffering, and very few complications.

Swim needed to re-dose 6 times over the course of three days to abate all withdrawals. This equates to 20 pills every 12 hours.


Side effects noted: Cotton mouth, fatigue, some stomach cramps, and slight nausea. Same constipation as while on oxycodone.

NOTE: SWIM found out not to use the gel-caps. They gave him severe stomach pain where the pill form did not.

Total cost of opiate- withdrawal abatement: $15.00 in loperamide pills.


Other notes: No, SWIM did NOT have any problems crapping. In fact, he had less constipation than he did on the oxycodone. Loperamide works on the intestinal tract to stop the runs just like other opiates do. There is no difference in action between the constipation of loperamide and the constipation of other opiates. The only major issue SWIM had was when he took the gel-cap formulation (which made him sick and gave him stomach pains). Cotton mouth (dry mouth) was the next biggest complaint.

I thought I would drop by and post SWIM's experience. Feel free to share your thoughts.

Olivia333

Stay strong and stay with it!!!! When I first started on suboxone it was very difficult too, your body needs time to adjust but you can do it! Trust me if I can do it so can you. What I did was tapered very slowly down to 2mg, can't believe I'm actually on 2mg to be honest!

My advice is don't try to taper too quickly, let your body adjust to the suboxone first, give it a few weeks, then drop down 1 or 2mg or whatever you feel comfortable with, if it's too difficult tell your doctor, just don't give up. The first month is the hardest but once you get use to it everything will be ok.

Don't give up!!!! Hang in there, you CAN do it!

Olive xo

Maro99

Thanks for the motivation and comments. Since my OP alot has changed. Check the two posts above yours to see where im at now.

Thanks