"I chose to drink" vs. "I slipped" vs "????"
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
"I chose to drink" vs. "I slipped" vs "????"
I've yet to make sense of what I think is right......so here's your chance to mold my brain!!! lol
Sitting at a table.....goin' around.....a guy tells how he "slipped" a couple days ago and had a couple drinks.
--Next guy says, "you didn't slip....that implies it was and accident and you weren't at all responsible.....you CHOSE to go back out again."
--Everyone at the table nods in agreement.
Sitting at another table a week or two later... same guy from above tells how he "chose to take a drink..that he used to think it was a slip but now he sees that he chose to not work the program and he got drunk."
--New group of "everyone" at the table nods in agreement.
Now.....from what I've read here over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... (lol).... neither of these statements are right. He lost his choice in drink....so he didn't choose to drink. I also don't like the term "slipped" - maybe I need to get over that but maybe neither is right? I dunno...
I want to know what the AA Program of Recovery says about this......what's in the first 164 that I've missed the half dozen times I've read it that explains this. What can I tell this new guy.... "he didn't slip, he didn't choose, he.....XXXXXX"
I'm also going to call my sponsor and my great grand sponsor and ask them. My sponsor isn't a "thumper" by any stretch....but my gg-sponsor IS. Just trying to cover all the bases here.
BB thumpers unite...... enlighten me please. I juts picked up a new sponsee yesterday and I want to have this concept straight (or at least "more" straight) in my head before he and i meet tonight.
thx.
Sitting at a table.....goin' around.....a guy tells how he "slipped" a couple days ago and had a couple drinks.
--Next guy says, "you didn't slip....that implies it was and accident and you weren't at all responsible.....you CHOSE to go back out again."
--Everyone at the table nods in agreement.
Sitting at another table a week or two later... same guy from above tells how he "chose to take a drink..that he used to think it was a slip but now he sees that he chose to not work the program and he got drunk."
--New group of "everyone" at the table nods in agreement.
Now.....from what I've read here over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... (lol).... neither of these statements are right. He lost his choice in drink....so he didn't choose to drink. I also don't like the term "slipped" - maybe I need to get over that but maybe neither is right? I dunno...
I want to know what the AA Program of Recovery says about this......what's in the first 164 that I've missed the half dozen times I've read it that explains this. What can I tell this new guy.... "he didn't slip, he didn't choose, he.....XXXXXX"
I'm also going to call my sponsor and my great grand sponsor and ask them. My sponsor isn't a "thumper" by any stretch....but my gg-sponsor IS. Just trying to cover all the bases here.
BB thumpers unite...... enlighten me please. I juts picked up a new sponsee yesterday and I want to have this concept straight (or at least "more" straight) in my head before he and i meet tonight.
thx.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
FWIW, my best guess is:
1. slipped - nope
2. chose - nope
3. "he drank because that's all he's able to do....he drank...and he'll continue to drink...because he has no choice to do anything BUT continue to drink.... - unless he makes the choice to work the program of recovery as outlined in those first 164."
1. slipped - nope
2. chose - nope
3. "he drank because that's all he's able to do....he drank...and he'll continue to drink...because he has no choice to do anything BUT continue to drink.... - unless he makes the choice to work the program of recovery as outlined in those first 164."
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 438
The Big Book and the 12 & 12 make it very clear that as alcoholics, we have lost the power of choice when it comes to drinking. We are utterly powerless, and need outside help to overcome an obsession that is so overpowering that "no amount of human willpower could break it." - 12 & 12, page 22.
Sure, in a literal sense any alcoholic who drinks must 'choose' to pick up that drink and put it to his or her lips. But what's the point in focusing on the problem more so than the solution?
I think that insisting that someone say they 'chose' to drink rather than 'slipped' is unnecessarily punitive and also beside the point. Why not just say they drank, period?
Sure, in a literal sense any alcoholic who drinks must 'choose' to pick up that drink and put it to his or her lips. But what's the point in focusing on the problem more so than the solution?
I think that insisting that someone say they 'chose' to drink rather than 'slipped' is unnecessarily punitive and also beside the point. Why not just say they drank, period?
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Originally Posted by stephnc 
Sure, in a literal sense any alcoholic who drinks must 'choose' to pick up that drink and put it to his or her lips. But what's the point in focusing on the problem more so than the solution?
I think that insisting that someone say they 'chose' to drink rather than 'slipped' is unnecessarily punitive and also beside the point. Why not just say they drank, period?
I think that insisting that someone say they 'chose' to drink rather than 'slipped' is unnecessarily punitive and also beside the point. Why not just say they drank, period?
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL..... almost exactly word-for-word what my sponsor just said. Had to leave a message for captain-52yrs great-grand sponsor.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 438
Here's another perspective, since I find this question pretty interesting:
************************************************** ******
from the Santa Clarita Valley Central Office of Alcoholics Anonymous
(Alcoholics Anonymous - Santa Clarita Valley - The Recovery Program)
What are 'slips'?
Occasionally a man or women who has been sober through A.A. will get drunk. In A.A. a relapse of this type is commonly known as a "slip." It may occur during the first few weeks or months of sobriety or after the alcoholic has been dry a number of years.
Nearly all A.A.s who have been through this experience say that slips can be traced to specific causes. They deliberately forgot that they had admitted they were alcoholics and got overconfident about their ability to handle alcohol. Or they stayed away from A.A. meetings or from informal association with other A.A.s. Or they let themselves become too involved with business or social affairs to remember the importance of being sober. Or they let themselves become tired and were caught with their mental and emotional defenses down.
In other words, most "slips" don't just happen.
************************************************** ******
Maybe a strange analogy, but while pondering this thread it occurred to me that a 'drinking' slip could be considered very similar to 'slipping' on a wet floor...technically, had you been being vigilant about where you were walking, you would have noticed that the floor was wet and taken appropriate precautions. But certainly you shouldn't be scolded for slipping...maybe you found yourself in a dangerous situation before you realized it. Maybe it could have been avoided. But nobody's perfect, are they? "We are not saints..."
************************************************** ******
from the Santa Clarita Valley Central Office of Alcoholics Anonymous
(Alcoholics Anonymous - Santa Clarita Valley - The Recovery Program)
What are 'slips'?
Occasionally a man or women who has been sober through A.A. will get drunk. In A.A. a relapse of this type is commonly known as a "slip." It may occur during the first few weeks or months of sobriety or after the alcoholic has been dry a number of years.
Nearly all A.A.s who have been through this experience say that slips can be traced to specific causes. They deliberately forgot that they had admitted they were alcoholics and got overconfident about their ability to handle alcohol. Or they stayed away from A.A. meetings or from informal association with other A.A.s. Or they let themselves become too involved with business or social affairs to remember the importance of being sober. Or they let themselves become tired and were caught with their mental and emotional defenses down.
In other words, most "slips" don't just happen.
************************************************** ******
Maybe a strange analogy, but while pondering this thread it occurred to me that a 'drinking' slip could be considered very similar to 'slipping' on a wet floor...technically, had you been being vigilant about where you were walking, you would have noticed that the floor was wet and taken appropriate precautions. But certainly you shouldn't be scolded for slipping...maybe you found yourself in a dangerous situation before you realized it. Maybe it could have been avoided. But nobody's perfect, are they? "We are not saints..."
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cumming, Ga
Posts: 665
My first question would be this....is the guy sitting at the table a heavy drinker or a real alcoholic? If he's a real alcoholic, one that fits my experience and description, choice isn't a part of the equation. I've found terms like slip and relapse kind of useless to me. I like calling it what it is........a return to drinking. Takes all the high drama and minimalization out of it. And choice doesn't have anything to do with it. That's why terms like "relapse prevention" don't make any sense to me. If I could prevent my own relapse, then I can just choose not to drink, then I could go on my merry way. My wife has the power of choice. She has 1 or 2 drinks and says. "I'm beginning to feel it" and stops and may or may not choose to drink again for months or years. She had 2 beers the other night with a group of Al-Anon buddies at an outing and it was the first time she had had anything to drink in probably two and a half years. She's not wondering when she will drink again, it's not a working part of her mind. I on the other hand seem to have the drink choose me, not the other way around, and then it does with me what it will and I obey. I understand with every fiber of my being the phrase "Alcohol is my MASTER". I haven't met many people who would consider servitude a condition of choice. Only a person with an alcoholic mind would consider it a choice. I takes delusion to consider servitude a condition of choice.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: CA desert
Posts: 1,599
Thanks DT for raising a very interesting topic.
I don't know what we should call it, be it a "slip", "choice", or "relapse", but I do know that during most of my drinking, I had no choice as is commonly considered a "choice". My mind was sick, and I can't explain it adequately, but I had no choice not to drink, it was as if alcohol had taken over my mind. I don't call it obsession either, because even if I was obsessed, I still had no choice, and the fact that others would say I had a choice did not change the fact that I didn't. Alcohol had me in its grip and I could not, on my own, find a way out. I progressed to a point where if I swore on a stack of bibles ten feet tall that I would not drink today, I would still end up drinking that day and wonder why I could not stop, even with the best of intentions. I had lost the ability to choose, even if I said I could choose, I was still only deluding myself.
I don't know what we should call it, be it a "slip", "choice", or "relapse", but I do know that during most of my drinking, I had no choice as is commonly considered a "choice". My mind was sick, and I can't explain it adequately, but I had no choice not to drink, it was as if alcohol had taken over my mind. I don't call it obsession either, because even if I was obsessed, I still had no choice, and the fact that others would say I had a choice did not change the fact that I didn't. Alcohol had me in its grip and I could not, on my own, find a way out. I progressed to a point where if I swore on a stack of bibles ten feet tall that I would not drink today, I would still end up drinking that day and wonder why I could not stop, even with the best of intentions. I had lost the ability to choose, even if I said I could choose, I was still only deluding myself.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Seattle wa
Posts: 5
Real alcoholic or heavy drinker?
Hi! I'm new to SR and was just reading about the 2 terms, real alcoholic and heavy drinker. This seems like a gray area to me. Can you explain the difference to me please?? Thanks
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 2,548
Lets get this out the way first.
The fact is that most alcoholics,for reasons yet obscure,have lost the power of choice in drink.
Our so called will power becomes non-existent. We are unable,at certain times,to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or month ago.
we are without defence against the first drink.
I felt like a puppet on a string....choice didnt come into it.
As strange as it would seem to some......i didnt want to keep doing what i was doing..but do it, i would regardless.
If i summon up enough resolve maybe id last a week..maybe 2 but the end result was a cert...
if im in the grip of a form of insanity...then even if it was a choice..it wasnt one grounded in reality.
people drink themselves to death.....is that a choice......made by a sane person..
and whats a slip??............sounds like another drink to me in a frilly dress.
The fact is that most alcoholics,for reasons yet obscure,have lost the power of choice in drink.
Our so called will power becomes non-existent. We are unable,at certain times,to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or month ago.
we are without defence against the first drink.
I felt like a puppet on a string....choice didnt come into it.
As strange as it would seem to some......i didnt want to keep doing what i was doing..but do it, i would regardless.
If i summon up enough resolve maybe id last a week..maybe 2 but the end result was a cert...
if im in the grip of a form of insanity...then even if it was a choice..it wasnt one grounded in reality.
people drink themselves to death.....is that a choice......made by a sane person..
and whats a slip??............sounds like another drink to me in a frilly dress.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
Well, for what it's worth, GG sponsor hit me with:
"Open to page 63. Which comes later in the book, page 24 or 63?" "Page 63," I said. He asked me to read it and he went back to these parts:
We had a new Employer.... He provided what we needed, if we kept close to Him and performed His work well.... We were reborn.
then he asked me to look up "reborn"
1 : born again : regenerated, revived
Then he asked, "if you're REBORN, what does that mean? Doesn't it mean that the 'old' you is gone and now there's a 'new' you?"
Then he said, "Quit getting hung up on the words. Bill and Bob intended anyone to worship words or to worship the book or to worship the steps or to worship the program.... you read to words, IN the book, DO the steps to WORK the program TO WORSHIP GOD.
Finally he said "slipped" is treatment center word so it's not AA, "lost our choice" is worshiping the book and that's not AA....so go ask God...that's AA. (LOL gotta love a crusty old-timer) Then he asked me how many hours I spend per week in prayer and how many in meditation...... (double-LOL).
Finally.....he closed with: "Mike, if someone goes back out and drinks again - you ask them if they were ever reborn! If they want to call it a slip, or a choice... none of that matters, they went out and drank because they didn't have a spiritual experience, they didn't enter the fourth dimension, they weren't working the program, they didn't find a new employer and they weren't reborn. That's why they got drunk again."
"Open to page 63. Which comes later in the book, page 24 or 63?" "Page 63," I said. He asked me to read it and he went back to these parts:
We had a new Employer.... He provided what we needed, if we kept close to Him and performed His work well.... We were reborn.
then he asked me to look up "reborn"
1 : born again : regenerated, revived
Then he asked, "if you're REBORN, what does that mean? Doesn't it mean that the 'old' you is gone and now there's a 'new' you?"
Then he said, "Quit getting hung up on the words. Bill and Bob intended anyone to worship words or to worship the book or to worship the steps or to worship the program.... you read to words, IN the book, DO the steps to WORK the program TO WORSHIP GOD.
Finally he said "slipped" is treatment center word so it's not AA, "lost our choice" is worshiping the book and that's not AA....so go ask God...that's AA. (LOL gotta love a crusty old-timer) Then he asked me how many hours I spend per week in prayer and how many in meditation...... (double-LOL).
Finally.....he closed with: "Mike, if someone goes back out and drinks again - you ask them if they were ever reborn! If they want to call it a slip, or a choice... none of that matters, they went out and drank because they didn't have a spiritual experience, they didn't enter the fourth dimension, they weren't working the program, they didn't find a new employer and they weren't reborn. That's why they got drunk again."
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Seems to me the choice is in the choosing... I know, I'm a smart ass
As I see it... The choice happens when a recovered(ing) alcoholic takes their own self will back... If in step three, we make the decision (choice) to turn our will over to God, don't we then make a decision (choice) not to? And if there is insanity in our choice with the drink (thanx shaun) do we, then, really have one?
A side question in response to BP44's excellent point... can a "hard drinker" take a third step?
As I see it... The choice happens when a recovered(ing) alcoholic takes their own self will back... If in step three, we make the decision (choice) to turn our will over to God, don't we then make a decision (choice) not to? And if there is insanity in our choice with the drink (thanx shaun) do we, then, really have one?
A side question in response to BP44's excellent point... can a "hard drinker" take a third step?
i've done my almost
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,934
I have no idea why I did what I did sometimes. When I drank...how much I drank...what I drank. I thought I was in control the entire time.
Then, come to find out, after the blackouts and consequences started, I'm not in control at all. In fact, I might actually be in a bit of trouble here. I can't control what is happening to me.
So...then taking that into consideration, and the fact that I [I]now[I] know I have a disease. What do I call it if or when I drink?
I think this boils down to what we really want to know - was it my fault I drank or at what point in my recovery does it become my fault if I drink?
Or was is simply a untreated reason...an untreated disease...as to why I act the way I do?
Then, come to find out, after the blackouts and consequences started, I'm not in control at all. In fact, I might actually be in a bit of trouble here. I can't control what is happening to me.
So...then taking that into consideration, and the fact that I [I]now[I] know I have a disease. What do I call it if or when I drink?
I think this boils down to what we really want to know - was it my fault I drank or at what point in my recovery does it become my fault if I drink?
Or was is simply a untreated reason...an untreated disease...as to why I act the way I do?
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
For the recovered person, who has had a spiritual awakening as the result of the Steps, or some other kind of spiritual experience sufficient to overcome alcoholism, it doesn't matter whether we consider that I still don't have a choice, but no choice is necessary, OR my sanity is restored and I can make a sane choice not to drink. The end result is the same.
That pg 24 quote is aimed at the non-recovered person, right in the middle of the mental obsession discussion. For that person, they have no choice in whether or not they drink. The are in the grip of a peculiar insanity, from which they have no effective mental defense. And part of that insanity is the delusion that they have control. The delusion that they have a choice in the matter instead of being driven by a mental obsession over which they are powerless.
That was my experience exactly. I had every reason not to drink, tons of motivation to not drink, and an honest, sincere desire to not drink. And I would drink anyway. I lacked the power to stay away from the first drink. Simple. When I got some power in my life as the result of a spiritual awakening and an effective contact with a power greater than myself, I could stay away from the first drink with very little effort.
My personal 'take' is that I still don't have a choice. The problem has been removed and a choice is not necessary. But that's just how I experience this contact with God. That's how it 'feels' to me. It's not an interpretation of the BB, but an experience of my own.
I do think that we can do a hell of a lot of harm to the newcomer by telling him that he can choose not to drink. It's just going to keep him locked into the delusion that he has some power.
It might be a grey area in other circles, but in AA talk, it pretty clearly explained on bottom of pg20, top of pg 21. The hard drinker can quit or moderate if given sufficiently good reason, such as health trouble, new relationship, legal problems, etc. The real alcoholic can not stop on a non-spiritual basis.
At some point, the line is crossed into alcoholism as the big book describes, and the most powerful, sincere desire to stop is of absolutely no use to us. We've placed ourselves beyond human aid.
That pg 24 quote is aimed at the non-recovered person, right in the middle of the mental obsession discussion. For that person, they have no choice in whether or not they drink. The are in the grip of a peculiar insanity, from which they have no effective mental defense. And part of that insanity is the delusion that they have control. The delusion that they have a choice in the matter instead of being driven by a mental obsession over which they are powerless.
That was my experience exactly. I had every reason not to drink, tons of motivation to not drink, and an honest, sincere desire to not drink. And I would drink anyway. I lacked the power to stay away from the first drink. Simple. When I got some power in my life as the result of a spiritual awakening and an effective contact with a power greater than myself, I could stay away from the first drink with very little effort.
My personal 'take' is that I still don't have a choice. The problem has been removed and a choice is not necessary. But that's just how I experience this contact with God. That's how it 'feels' to me. It's not an interpretation of the BB, but an experience of my own.
I do think that we can do a hell of a lot of harm to the newcomer by telling him that he can choose not to drink. It's just going to keep him locked into the delusion that he has some power.
Originally Posted by Maki
Hi! I'm new to SR and was just reading about the 2 terms, real alcoholic and heavy drinker. This seems like a gray area to me. Can you explain the difference to me please??
At some point, the line is crossed into alcoholism as the big book describes, and the most powerful, sincere desire to stop is of absolutely no use to us. We've placed ourselves beyond human aid.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Heywood,Gtr.Manchester
Posts: 242
A 'real alcoholic'.
This term, is first used in the opening lineofChapter3 of the,'Big Book' andgoes on to give examples of a,'real alcoholic', not a ,'heavy drinker' or someone who is addicted to alcohol. So what is a,'real alcoholic'?
It was explained to me that for a,'real alcoholic', drinking alcohol will, whatever their circumstances, their status or anything else affecting the human condition, happy, sad whatever, instantly make everything aaarrrlllright!. Overiding the fact that an alcoholics digestive system is different than a,'normal social drinker' who digest alcohol at 1oz per hour, for alcoholics this is much slower, causes more damage and mentally sends messages to the brain saying,'Give me more' Setting off the whole vicious cycle all over again.
It therefore follows that, when I said that for a ,'real alcoholic', remember whatever theircircumstances, has to drink or have a,'slip', until they can replace it with a,'physic change' as Dr.Silkworth' said to diminish the craving
found in understanding and practising the 12 Steps and making spiritual progress, for some this is harder than for others, just got to keep aiming for progress.
It was explained to me that for a,'real alcoholic', drinking alcohol will, whatever their circumstances, their status or anything else affecting the human condition, happy, sad whatever, instantly make everything aaarrrlllright!. Overiding the fact that an alcoholics digestive system is different than a,'normal social drinker' who digest alcohol at 1oz per hour, for alcoholics this is much slower, causes more damage and mentally sends messages to the brain saying,'Give me more' Setting off the whole vicious cycle all over again.
It therefore follows that, when I said that for a ,'real alcoholic', remember whatever theircircumstances, has to drink or have a,'slip', until they can replace it with a,'physic change' as Dr.Silkworth' said to diminish the craving
found in understanding and practising the 12 Steps and making spiritual progress, for some this is harder than for others, just got to keep aiming for progress.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 2,548
Originally Posted by Kjell
I have no idea why I did what I did sometimes. When I drank...how much I drank...what I drank. I thought I was in control the entire time.
Then, come to find out, after the blackouts and consequences started, I'm not in control at all. In fact, I might actually be in a bit of trouble here. I can't control what is happening to me.
So...then taking that into consideration, and the fact that I [I]now[I] know I have a disease. What do I call it if or when I drink?
I think this boils down to what we really want to know - was it my fault I drank or at what point in my recovery does it become my fault if I drink?
Or was is simply a untreated reason...an untreated disease...as to why I act the way I do?
Then, come to find out, after the blackouts and consequences started, I'm not in control at all. In fact, I might actually be in a bit of trouble here. I can't control what is happening to me.
So...then taking that into consideration, and the fact that I [I]now[I] know I have a disease. What do I call it if or when I drink?
I think this boils down to what we really want to know - was it my fault I drank or at what point in my recovery does it become my fault if I drink?
Or was is simply a untreated reason...an untreated disease...as to why I act the way I do?
its fundamental to have the vital information..but information without action is peeing in the wind.
i have recovered from alcoholism.....as long as i continue to grow along spiritual lines that recovered state will remain.
i am sane and sober.......in your post you said you believed you were in control the entire time......that screams to me, how insane we become
if i continue to drink with a form of insanity......am i too blame..?..is it a choice made based on reality??.......of course not.
just me.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
DARN IT... cant' edit.. left out a key word in bold below.... and fixed a type-o
--
--
Then he said, "Quit getting hung up on the words. Bill and Bob NEVER intended anyone to worship words or to worship the book or to worship the steps or to worship the program.... you read THE words, IN the book, DO the steps to WORK the program TO WORSHIP GOD.
i've done my almost
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,934
Originally Posted by shaun00
am i too blame..?..is it a choice made based on reality??.......of course not.
How do we make choices, when we are fooling/lying to ourselves? Which choice was made on fact? Which choice was made on delusional thinking?
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
