Rob B

I know this one has been kicked around quite a bit already, I want to provide this perspective, as it has not really been looked at.

sober and separated from alcohol for a while, Do I have a choice today in picking up the 1st drink? I say no, here's why:

Choice stems from will. In step three I made a decision to turn my life and will over to the care of God as I understand him. I then did the work in the remaining steps to back up this decision with action.

my point is this, what kind of God have I picked would let me manage a choice I have a proven track record of not being able to select.

I am truly grateful that I did not wake up this morning and decide not to drink, I got quiet for a while and prayed, aligning my will with God's. I did have a choice in this. I believe for me to drink is to die. I also believe that I have a daily repreive contingent upont the maintenance of my spiritual condition. For this I am responsible. My experience with this supports one of the lesser heard tenth step promises, the problem has been removed.

These are just some considerations folks, nothing more or less, it happens to be my truth but that doesn't automatically make it yours. I am interested in hearing response to this,,, After one has sat with this a bit, not 2 seconds after the ego grabs the controls, something I am guilty of on a regular basis.

1cor13

Do I have a choice today in picking up the 1st drink?

I gave this question considerable thought before I got involved with Alcoholics Anonymous. I believed that my drinking was a matter choice and that I had control over it.

Now that I have taken the 12 steps I look at my drinking as a matter of sanity or insanity and realize today my drinking had very little to do with choice.

ANGELINA243

I don't have a choice--I am 100% powerless over alcohol. I do have a choice, however, in who I choose to hang out with and where I choose to go.

sugErspun

Whenever the notion/issue of Choice comes up. Only one thing comes to mind for me.

"God is either everything or He is nothing. God either Is or He isn't"

I did not make a choice to 'not drink' yesterday - and last night I went to go check out a fellows Grateful Dead tribute band, and they played in a bar where most people were probably drinking.

I felt comfortable, there was no inner struggle to choose to tell the waitier I wanted a diet coke (my friend had a martini) - I enjoyed the show A LOT (they were really really good), went home, meditated, prayed and went to sleep.

I have not made a choice today to not drink - in fact...it has been many days in a row where the thought of "will I drink today or not" has been a conscious decision. The thought of having a drink has not come up.


I was a daily heavy alcoholic drinker.

Miracles cannot be explained with words - only by a life lived which is not based on the will of that alcoholic mind (which stays with me, Just doesn't run the show anymore).


Thanks Rob.

Dee74

Interesting thoughts Rob.

I come from another tangent tho (surprising I know LOL) I guess I'm a humanist...

God gives us free will - we can use it for good or for ill. Today (and since last April) I choose good.

I don't pretend to know whether that's God's will or not - He is infinite, I am not - but I'm assuming it is seeing as I feel much more a worthwhile human being these days (not to mention the miracle that sugErspun mentioned).

I'd much rather think He was looking after those less fortunate than me, rather than being my personal guardian angel.

He gives me the intelligence to differentiate between right and wrong and he's given me the strength to exercise it, and that's good enough for me

He gave me arms legs and a brain for a reason - it's up to me now to keep this working...
I just hope I'm making a difference, and a positive one.

thanks - good topic
D

RufusACanal

I understand and appreciate your thoughts Rob and I can see where faith in the Power greater than would relieve the choice to ever drink again. However, my faith is hardly consistent. The obsession, the need, the urge to drink one drink or a thousand has been lifted and while the psychic change is part and parcel of my new life, I continue to always have a choice in every area of my life. This is the basis for personal responsibility in my lowly opinion. My belief in a Power greater than I protects and shelters, yet this same Power never infringes on free will. Whether faith in God barricades us from the decision to choose or we actively acknowledge that we are free in the decision-making process through our own power to choose not to drink, the results are same. We are free from the bondage of a drink forever.

bugsworth

I know it will be a huge shock but my views are very much like Dee.

God gave us free will...does he really want it back? As Dee stated and I agree with 100%
I don't pretend to know what is or is not Gods will...I can only do what is right for me, to the best of my ability with all the gifts given to me...including my free will. I don't think God would disapprove.

SugErspun really brought to light something that I hadn't noticed but I can also say is true for me...The thought of having a drink has not come up. So grateful today...thanks for the post!

caraway

This is a question I rarely ask myself as it is usually too hard for me to answer. But I read the thread and went away thinking 'well, I just don't know' but then thought a bit more. Then I thought, well, today I'm not in the best of moods, I've had a headache for the past two days which makes me a bit moody and a bit fed up. Its the kind of thing that might cause me to think, 'oh, what the hell, I'm going to get some booze to cheer myself up'. But today I'm finding it easy to choose not to do that. Why? Well, I believe it is simply because I decided to become a member of AA. I just think about that membership and what it means to me. It means a whole lot of other people in 'the same boat' as me, I'm reminded of how miserable newcomers look and how much I don't want to be like that again. SR helps for similar reasons too.

And the HP/God thing, gosh that gets me thinking too. Does God have more important things to see to than me? Why would God help me when there is so much more trouble and unhappiness he could be helping with. Fairly recently I started thinking of God (putting it into a sort of analogy) as like the sun shining. The sun doesn't decide it will shine on the rose more than the dandelion or vice versa. It just shines, equally on everything. Even in the darkest shade, there is some light. If a flower isn't getting much sun, the sun doesn't move around trying to shine more on the flower, the plant will grow towards the sun. Of course we have more free will than a plant, and we can decide to get out into the sun and not hide away in the shade. So to me, God is always there, it is my choice whether or not I allow God into my life.

As for choice in drinking, I'm not sure I feel I can directly control it but trying to find an analogy again, I think for me it is like - if you don't want to get run over by a car, you walk on the path, it doesn't guarantee no accidents but it reduces the likelihood.

So with AA and the program as my path, I think that gives me some choice.

CAPTAINZING2000

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him

After making this decision, I pray daily for God's will for me to do that day.

Foremost, I ask God to be of service to others.

Once, we're out of self, our desires for drinking become less each and every day.

We stay in AA to help the new commer with our ESH. The new commer, is a reminder to people with long term sobriety how painful it still is for people drinking.

Signal30

For me there is a choice between two paths. The path to serenity, acceptance, physical, and emotional sobriety. And the other path. The path of selfishness, self-pity, self-reliance, and self-destruction. I went down the latter path for many, many years. The path forks sometimes with lures of one beer not being a "big deal" to the old path, and I once again am given a choice. The old path is a bad path regardless of what little triggers come along the way. By daily maintaining my spiritual fitness, I am able to keep the knowledge and by Gods will I am to continue this path to sobriety, regardless of how the old path tries to look. I know it only leads to one place, death.


Tom

sugErspun

The twelve steps, the stairway to the real work if you will (helping others, carrying the message of recovery) - and my experience with them (and it was an experience, not an intellectual exercise through which I gained some knowledge and now I 'know better')

I only made one decision (only once I was told to make a choice). I think this is intentional. It was the third step.

No other steps involve choice.

1. I did not choose to believe I am powerless and life is unmanageable - I admitted it was the truth of my condition and situation
2. I did not choose to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to the ability to think straight and give me back some proportion. I saw it had worked in others and was out of other options.
3. I choose to leave my way of doing things behind. Whatever happens from now on, I don't get to take credit for it.
4. Did not choose to take inventory - just did it.
5. Shared that inventory
6. Was ready to be rid of it
7. Humbly asked the powers that be to remove that which blocks my usefullness to others.
8. Made a list of who, what and How I caused HARM
9. Made ammends for that HARM - directly
10. Continued to be accountable.
11. Pray and Meditate
12. Carry the message because something happened in the previous 11.

Only one involves choice.

But- that being said, I can see how after restoration to sanity, one could see that things are pretty much the same, and that by not being 'driven to drink' they are making the choice.

For myself - once I gave up my will and my life- I don't get to take credit. Only through God am I not drinking, nothing short of it.


Thank all for posting, I truly enjoy these threads.

caraway

I agree with you sugEspun, experience of life is how we can understand things. I remember when my first child was born, I new that I would love him no matter what, if he had 3 heads scaly skin and was a monster or grew up to be a multi axe murderer etc,etc, I knew that no matter what, I would love him just the same. When there has been a bit of sibling rivalry I have thought 'how can I explain that I love them both the same when they are both so different?' Thats when I thought about the sun analogy. Not because I think I am God but I feel that when I love, that this is because God is working through me. This is how God expresses himself. And I know that my love is only human love, as I believe that Gods love is so much more than that. I didn't feel as if I chose to love, it just seemed to happen and is still happening. Now, I have to choose to make an effort to feel like that about everyone because I'm a christian and should love my neighbours!

So for me, I work on what is already there, to help it grow. That helps me on my path.

I don't understand, sugEspun, how come you had no choice in doing steps 4 and 5?

sugErspun

Steps 4 and 5 were the action behind the choice I made at step 3.

I made a decision at step 3 - that is followed by action - steps 4 and 5 (and the rest for that matter). came immediately after (I mean - I started step four within an hour of doing the third step prayer.)

That is why the book is so great - it is very clear on this. The third step prayer is followed immediately by setting out on a course of vigorous action - the first of which is a personal housecleaning (Step 4).

I decided to go for this power - I pretty much did what I was told to do (as long as it tied back to the book). It wasn't choice at that point any longer...

Thanks for asking caraway

jimhere

There is only one choice I will ever have to make again for the rest of my life. God either is or God isn't. God is either everything or God id nothing.

I can live accordingly. If I live as God is everything, I don't need to even worry about choosing to drink or not drink because the problem has been removed.

lovingseren

I believe I have choice in all things, but when I choose to pick up that first drink, that is when I become powerless.
I choose my thinking, and my attitude, and I accept the fact I am responsible for myself and for my actions.
I spent much of my life as a powerless female, and in order to have a healthy recovery I had to take charge of myself and my life.
I believe in God, The Almighty, but I also believe in "Pray by all means, but do row for the shore".

Seren

sugErspun

Oh. I am powerless of even that first drink. I have drank at 'my very best', and even for no reason at all.

Seren - when you are dealing with someone who is having trouble stopping drinking? What are your suggestions to them? I know I really really really wanted to stop, and I really meant it, and I really tried as hard as I could - but even sober - I was powerless over keeping my resolve. It would just 'change'.

I am curious how WFS handles cases where women just cannot stop drinking no matter how bad the want and/or need may be (ie, can't stay sober)?

Thanks

lovingseren

Sugar,
I had no idea I had choice, all the time I was drinking I was without hope, and thought I was sure to die an alcoholic's death. I was actually stuck in my victimhood, which had been my "pillow" for years.
I did try AA, but felt very, very discouraged, when a woman with long term sobriety, I admired very much, told me it took her 10 years to get sober. I did not have 10 years, I knew I did not have 10 months, I was throwing up blood and as a nurse I knew I was killing myself.
I had tried and tried to get sober on my own, for years, with other programs, and what changed for me was finding a group of women who gave me hope, who empowered me to take charge of myself, who were prepared to talk to me and to listen to me, on the phone, in an internet chat room 24/7, which they did for a solid two weeks, until I was detoxed.
I applied myself to the program of my choice, and embraced it with all my heart and soul, and I believed what the women there were telling me, I hung on and did the work whilst they supported me.
I share this with all women who come to my group, and have seen many, many women get sober using the WFS Program. We have women there who have been sober for over 20 years, they stick around to "give back".
I cannot "fix" another alcoholic, only they can "fix" themselves, and they have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get and stay sober, but they must make the choice to make a commitment to their sobriety.
Ceasing to drink is probably the toughest thing I have ever done, but it is the most worthwhile thing I have ever done.
I am grateful to be an alcoholic, because without it, I would never have grown so much as a human being otherwise.

I hope this gives you some insight.

There are many, many roads to sobriety and recovery, just as there are many, many ways to God.

I rejoice when any human being finds recovery and serenity, even if it is not "my way".

I have many friends in sobriety who use all the other programs out there, including AA, and I am happy to share with and to listen to them, they are open minded and are of the opinion, "whatever works".

Seren

ps. A woman who cannot cease to drink should seek detox and treatment ASAP.

sugErspun

Thank you for sharing Seren. I appreciate your point of view (which I know comes from your experience).

For what its worth (my opinion of course), I think that if you are truly on the road to God, alcohol isn't going to be an issue.



~A

lovingseren

Hugs to you Sugar, The Lord was with me all the way, I do know that.

As someone who has spent over 30 years working with the dying I have seen people of many different faiths, or indeed of no faith at all, die. I can honestly say that all of them find peace in the belief of their choice.

I have seen much the same with people who go on to a rich and fulfilling recovery.

Seren

isn't recovery wonderful!:ghug3

1cor13

I have been reading the comments here on this thread and decided to look into WFS/MFS and pulled the steps if you will. I agree with them and see how they can be of benefit. I don’t know if they would have worked for me much like Religion I never gave anything a fair shake until I was absolutely hopeless. I am a greatfull member of Alocholics Anonymous and through God and the 12 steps I am sober. Let’s look at the step breakdown in comparison to the steps of AA.

1 talks about powerlessness, 2 talks about the insanity, 3 talks about God’s will, 4 deals with my inventory, when doing 5 I felt like number 2, 6 deals with willingness, 7 sacrifice, 8 again willingness, 9 amends, 10 deals with emotional sobriety, 11 deals with prayer and meditation, 12 helping others, and 13, not using what I have been given for selfish gain (13th step). After taking a look at the many different roads to sobriety they don’t seem so different. I'm happy with my choice to become a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.

1. I have a life threatening problem that once had me.
2. Negative thoughts destroy only myself.
3. Happiness is a habit I will develop.
4. Problems bother me only to the degree I permit them to.
5. I am what I think.
6. Life can be ordinary or it can be great.
7. Love can change the course of my world.
8. The fundamental object of life is emotional and spiritual growth.
9. The past is gone forever.
10. All love given returns
11. Enthusiasm is my daily exercise.
12. I am a competent man and have much to give life.
13. I am responsible for myself and my actions.