Cathy31

********.

Taiman, I find it hard to believe (and don't) that you have ever had anything to do with AA. You so clearly don't get the fundamental concepts!!!

DonS has never been to a meeting, yet he is INFORMED. Yet you've been to so many and don't have a clue.

JMHO

Anyway...

Cathy31

I mean this is so bl**dy ignorant of you!

My sister has the WIND as her higher power.

She is 14 weeks sober. Do you have a problem with that?

IMAGINE!!! She was killing herself with drugs. Imagine if she had listened to the likes of you?! She is agnostic and would not have gone near AA/NA had she heard this UTTER NONSENSE about having to believe in God.

Her HP is the wind ok.

Deal with it.

And she's sober. That's what gets to me. What are you trying to achieve?

If you have another way, COOL...like BSP

But instead you must try and denegrate a program that works.

It really pisses me off.

ALOT!

Dan

I allow them their space.
It wasn't always the case

And here's a news flash, chum...
Not all believers are arrogant.

Dan

Cathy, bucket, ice water...
Now

Cathy31

Yeah I know but my sister would most probably have been dead if she had.

Oh never mind.

It is DANGEROUS misleading people about a program that can save them.

Sorry to add to the derailment.

Taiman

Cathy please tell me which position I held doesn't exist? What do you want proof I have been in AA?

Positions I held in AA in Toronto.

Group Director or Master Chair as some groups call it.
Intergroup Rep - twice
Treasurer - 3 times
Group Secretary
Librarian
Setup/coffee maker - constantly
I also volunteered to put on service meetings in Toronto, in hospitals and at Seaton House which is a men's flop house, it has an alcoholic section.
I have spent countless nights taking people to detox centres in Toronto and hospitals.

I may have forgotten some positions.

I understand the concepts of AA very well. I am aware that people in AA say your higher power can be anything but the steps are predicated on a belief in God. AA grew out of the Oxford Group which was/is a Christian organisation.

AA's Intergroup office in Toronto is at 234 Eglinton Ave West. However the monthly Intergroup meetings weren't held there.

Groups I attended meetings at.

New Life Group - Mississauga
Open Hands Group –Mississauga
Erin Mills Group- Mississauga
Port Credit Group - Mississauga
Mississauga Hospital Meeting (before it closed)

Toronto
The Hill Group
Rox Glen Traditional Group
Yorkville Group (back when it was a Wed discussion meeting only)
Phoenix Group
Sunday Morning Men’s Meeting in Leaside


There are more these are off the top off my head.

You can disagree with me about AA philosophy if you choose but I was a member of AA.

Taiman

If they allow you yours, you are luckier than I was.

I know not all believers are arrogant. I have many friends who believe in God who are inclusive with their outlook.

Dan

Has nothing to do with luck, but rather everything to do with who I am, how I comport myself, and furthermore, my undeniable belief that there is goodness and usefulness in all human beings. Sometimes though, they don't know that yet.

Taiman

I can't help thinking luck had something to do with it or perhaps they have become more open minded since I went. I never tried to foist my atheism on anyone. My belief in God disappeared over time, I didn't cross talk at discussion meetings and was always repectful of their belief in God however when people found out I didn't believe in God they would up to me to challenge me or try to get me to believe in God again. People I didn't even know. They would tell me I was missing something because I didn't believe in God. At some point I had to say to them, I don't know you, we aren't friends, you may be the nicest guy in the world but I believe what I believe, please leave me alone.

fuguestate

But you must also remember there is an OCEAN between those who are agnostic and those who are athiests

emmanuel2012

i totally relate, BPSGirl.

Meetings are supposed to be Empowering. if they don't empower you, find something that does. the goal of the NA/AA program is to be Free. Not all people can agree with the principles and that doesnt mean they can't also be free.

and remember that the followers of a religion or spiritual program are not the program itself. For, i mean, I love Jesus, but I am afraid of some of his followers.

brigid

I believe there is intolerance of other people's ideas and beliefs everywhere in this world and that is not something that is unique to AA. I tend to admire people who have their own belief system and are tolerant of other people having theirs, knowing that there is no absolute right or wrong in this world. Diversity is strength, not a limitation.

People who have had a revelation often feel the need to share that, some try to force it on others, others just live the revelation and let it speak for itself.

This is not something peculiar to AA! And as AA is has a membership of people I am sure that there is this facet of over zealous, good meaning people, trying to force their beliefs.

I can see that it would be difficult for an atheist or agnostic to accept AA teachings in full. But they will still be able to get a lot of great stuff if the concept of god can be ignored by them. And to me it is a little like "a doorknob or a bus as a HP .... please", sure I am not the only thing on this planet and other things have influence over me, but to put my trust in a doorknob or a bus ... that is a little silly to me.

love brigid

Taiman

My opinion can't be ignorant, it is my opinion. I have asked how the steps can be worked without a belief in God, I even pointed out which steps I think must be skipped or changed if one doesn't believe in God, so far no one has been able to answer me. Your sister is an agnostic meaning she believes the existence of God can't be proved which is different from an atheist who believes there is no God. At 14 weeks your sister hasn't had much time to try and work the steps with wind as her Higher Power. In step 3 will she turn her will and life over to wind? oh wait the step doesn't say higher power it says GOD. Most likely at some point she will come to believe in God.

I am pleased your sister is 14 weeks sober, I truly am. I have family members who have sobered up as well. I have seen many people who were killing themselves with drugs, Toronto has a horrible problem with crack.

I am simply trying to tell the truth about AA.

I don't use another program to keep sober, I have decided not to drink and I don't drink, as simple as that.

I don't believe I am denigrating AA, only telling the truth about it. In America in 3 states AA has been deemed a religion by the courts.

AA has Christian roots, I am sure you are familiar with the Oxford group. An AA member has written a book called: The Good book and the Big book, AA's roots in the Bible"

http://www.dickb.com/goodbook.shtml

Regarding you being pissed off: As they would say in AA ,maybe you prayed for patience today which is why you are being tested.

Dan

Can I humbly suggest you open the valve and let a little air out?
That ego of yours might blow any minute.
I know this, because my ego is probably larger than yours

NoMoBeer

Taiman, an ego? Nah, he's his own higher power.....

I have to say, everyone on this thread sounds like kids who aren't getting along in the sandbox...

I have to say in observing, that the AA folks tend to go along with the flow, while those who are "non-AA" for lack of a better term, vehemently defend their right to not believe in God, or say "show me how to work the steps without God," or "your sister will have to believe in God.... ya da ya da ya da... for this AAer, I say -- believe what you want, I honestly don't care. If you'd like to hit yourself in the head with a 2X4 to stay sober, God bless -- oops, I mean -- good for you..

Taiman, frankly (this is my opinion only), I don't give a rat's ass how many positions you've held in AA. You typically take a stance on these boards against AA, and it is actually quite funny to watch. I certainly don't want to argue your views -- if you don't like AA, that's fine... just don't try to sway others from trying it out, that's all I would ask. The highest ranking position we can hope to attain in AA is sober. Maybe you felt denied b/c you never got to be president.

Cathy -- I had no idea your sis is sober 2 weeks -- that's GREAT! She has a wonderful role model, you help a tremendous number of folks on these boards.

BSP -- Sheesh, sorry -- I can't remember why you started this thread -- as long as you are sober today, though... that's what counts. I think you made reference to 'why the courts send folks to AA in the states.' I think, and again -- this is my opinion -- because it's a program that can be monitored, and at least these folks will do SOMETHING about their drinking. Yes, it's true that many of the people who are in the rooms to get their paper signed don't WANT to be there, but at least there is the possibility they will get sober. I've seen some of them really come around and WANT to stay sober -- that's a magical thing! I believe in God, and I truly believe those are the miracles of AA. If a judge ordered someone to pick up a book on SMART, and do some work on their own, how many drunks would actually follow through? AA signs the paper, doesn't cost the 'system' any money to put these people through a 'program,' and if we're all lucky the person will sober up and not drive drunk any more, risking lives...

I love all you guys... but let's try and get along -- we can help more drunks that way!

Ken

trytrytry

Ugh. This arguement of "to aa or not" is boring and counterproductive. The issue seems to get raised every week with no conclusions except : to each his or her own.

trytrytry

don't misunderstand me, you guys and gals are wonderful. it' just a circular conversation...

CarolD

What a damned shame if unbelievers are incorrect!!


God and AA and Me...
an unbeatable triangle for sobreity.

Peter

Wrong again Mr. Taiman.

As an old AA "veteran" you should know they can. Why you would make that allegation when you obviously know better is beyond me and seems just a tad irresponsible.

I sir was an atheist when I found AA and worked all the Steps you mentioned by accepting AA as my Higher Power and "God" as simply an acronmy for "Good Orderly Direction"

Yes AA evolved out of the christian based "Oxford group."
Yes Bill W was a deeply religious man who heavily wrote his beliefs into the basic text of AA but there is an entire chapter in the book that allows us the freedom to choose whatever concept of a Higher Power we feel comfortable with. Even if it is the wind.

All that is requred is a little faith in the belief that there are forces in this universe more powerful than ourselves. It really is not that hard you know.

I am comfortable with my belief system and what AA represents.

What I am NOT comfortable with is the perpetuation of falsity about a programme that is helping millions.

brigid

Well they won't come to the same conclusions about life that you have, is that a shame? Or is that ok? Will your truth still be valid to you?