I sometimes feel like a "heathen" or something.
 

:c009: Me again.:09:

Whenever I read all these AA recommendations and all, I sometimes feel like...hmm discriminated, rude out of place. What I mean by that? Lemme try to explain...for example I read:

I really did give AA a try but it just wasn't for me. Also I get the impression the standard reply by some ppl is that you are in denial if you think AA isn't working for you. I look at those forums by Guy Kettlehack and Mark Sighel or something, those therapists. Their standard reply is 'go to an AA meeting'. I know many ppl here are into NA/AA, I really don't wanna offend any of you all.

Just to make something clear:

- I don't bash NA/AA
- I don't deny that it's been helpful for many people
- I am not 'in denial' or 'a dry drunk' or whatever, I actually try pretty hard to improve and become a better person. I mostly use techniques they taught me at SMART for that, so I recognized I got a problem
- I don't believe in a God or a Higher Power or any other spiritual being, at least not in the sense of an 'entity' you can let take control and will solve all your issues.
- I firmly believe I'm in total control of myself, in the end. I might not realize it but I am.
- I think this idea of 'powerlessness' is very depressing, at least to me it is.
- I don't judge ppl who might think the complete opposite.

Sorry for this long rambling, just to make clear: SR has been pretty helpful, for example when urges were bothering me, I posted on here and there's always someone here (NA/AA minded or not), so that's not my point. I just wanted to make something clear, I actually look forward to read some ppl in NA/AA their comments/opinions. :)

I would like to believe that those that seem to take offense at any negative comment about AA are maybe just a wee bit insecure yet in their own sobriety, or knowing only AA as a means to their own sobriety stick with what they know.

I stopped drinking many years ago after dying and AA taught me how to LIVE sober. Do I look on AA as the "end all and be all" for sobriety. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Over these past many ODAATs, as I have continued to grow and change, the "black and white" perceptions I arrived with have certainly changed to a lot of "gray areas". lol

As time has progressed and more research has been done, today there are many different ways for people to become sober and stay sober. What works for one person may not work for another.

I am just grateful, every time I see another one of my "fellow HELL Walkers" find their way into the sunlight. I really do not concern myself with how, just glad they made it. I am here to share my own ES & H when someone asks.

I was not real thrilled with AA when I stopped drinking. I had a great DISLIKE of any organized religion and at first that was what it sounded like. But something else was more important in those early months and years. It was the "fellowship" not the program of AA. The meetings were a SAFE HAVEN where I found people just like me trying to figure out how to live sober. And through the fellowship, and the meetings after the meetings, I learned how to do things sober, whether it was going for coffee, going to a movie, going to a dance, a picnic, whatever.

So BSP if what you are doing for you is giving you some peace of mind, giving you goals and a direction without alcohol and/or drugs, then PLEASE, PLEASE keep doing it.

S R is a wonderful place to vent, to get advice, to share ES & H and to get to see how others are living and learning to live sober.

JMHO

Love and (((((to all))))),

One of the best peace of wisdom I got from this board was when Don S told someone that "they will call you agnostic - but who cares what they call you". I think we get hung up on name calling, ideological differences, when really, truly: who gives a shi t?

I recall when the SMART website was put up.

Some cyber friends from AEB joined them.

I did not as AA was then and still is working great for me.:09:

The internet recovery sites are reaching so many newcomers...they are an awesome force for sobriety.

I had been in AA recovery for years before I came on line in '91
Recovery sites are an enhancement to my journey.

I hope all find their way to get and stay sober. :HulaDance

Came off a little harsh; what I mean is that what ever I believe, I have to be comfortable with that - and if I am not, then I have to keep searching. And it really matters not much if people dont like it - and visa versa.

HI bsp girl.. The reason why some of us AA'ers or NA'ers give the standard reply is that is what we know.. We cannot share experience we do not have.. I am not going to say --- go stand on your head in the corner and it will make you better when I know nothing about standing on your head in the corner.

It may also be helpful for you to know that most of us were at a place in our lives where we had given up -- totally lost -- near death and more -- when we find something that brings us back from a place like that and gives us a whole new life beyond description --- how could we not be passionate about it ???

No one is trying to force anything on anyone.. All I care about is those who suffer from the same ailment as I --- find a way.. any way to get and stay sober.. I could care less how they do it.. How I did it worked for me.. 25 years now so I sure cannot help but carry the message I know..

One thing about all this "I don't beleive in a higher power stuff"... is bull. You know - alkies/addicts know more about a higher power than most people long before they get straight.. Consider all we give up for the booze and/or drugs. Heck, I lost my kids, husband (s), home, job, car, self esteme, self worth, morals, health and freedom --- yet I kept drinking booze.. Thats one powerful higher power... And its a higher power I beleived in to the end.. Even with loosing it all I still hung in there with that higher power booze..

You may not beleive in God but there is no doubt you have beleived in a higher power.. After all these years in AA --- let me tell you there are a huge variety of higher powers among members.. It matters not what it is. You don't have to beleive in God so that is a poor excuse.. WE beleived in booze for a long time. All we need to do is find something else to belive in.

My own best thinking got me here. My own best efforts got me here.. So I already know my own best efforts did not work.. Even so - when I first got sober I continued using my own marvelous best efforts ( smile ) IT still did not work.. I stayed miserable until I did something different..

My best to you and I hope you find whatever it is that will give you a life of continued sobriety, peace and happiness..

Linda C.

I'm not sure what you mean by a higher power

everyone believes in something even if it only chance factors. I believe in chance but I wouldn't call it a higher power

BSP

I think that this is absolutely fine :) and absolutely clear.

I'm glad you are here whichever method of recovery you use, as long as you are recovering I am happy for you. :cheer

Cathy31
x

Cathy31 & all the others who replied, thanks! :hug: Yes I will continue recommending people to try out SMART Recovery, especially those saying they don't really feel like NA/AA suits them.
I agree with fuguestate too about that higher power thing, lemme move on to that cuz it seems I didn't make my point of view totally clear.

Linda C:

Ok fair enough, you are passionate about something that has really helped ya. Like I'm passionate about SMART's tools, you, of course, got all rights to recommend working the 12 steps to others. I sure hope you never forget to mention that this method has worked for you personally, no problem with that. What I do see tho is that professional therapists give a standard reply without mentioning the pro's and con's of a 12 step self help group, without offering any alternative. Also I noticed that especially in The States NA/AA is considered the only way by judges, dr's and others. Now this, I think, is dangerous. Indeed, as long as you're willing to get sober, who cares how you do it? Forcing someone into a certain program (whether that's SMART, AA or the highschool marching band) seldomly really works. But ok, enough about "politics" I know most ppl here at SR aren't too pushy. :) Then you continue:

Excuse me? I made very clear I don't think any less of ppl who believe in a Higher Power, out of their control, so I don't pass any judgement, yet you judge my beliefs as 'bull'. Humanism isn't BS, it's a philosophy. Self control isn't BS. You say I've let drugs and alcohol become the boss over me. While that might be right, it wasn't them who did that. It's not like alcohol and drugs have a mind of their own that have talked to me 'drink me', 'snort me!' nope, I got news for you: I did it to myself. My behavior went along patterns that I didn't wish it to along. And yes it went outta hand but only cuz I let it. So you say many NA/AA folks have different HP's, like a doorknob or Harry Potter or whomever/whatever, but always someone else, some external factor. Well my Higher Power = me. I'm my own God/Doorknob/Strange Lifeforce. I still don't judge others, if it helps you to hand your control over to something strange, outside of you and you stay sober/clean, I really really couldn't care less. Then you write:

Perhaps (and don't take this the wrong way) if your own best thinking and best efforts got you into a miserable spot in life, then it's time to change your thinking?

Last but not least:

Thanks, you too! :D

Actually, BSP, I think we're infidels, not heathens.

The 'higher power' debate can be usefully approached using the external/internal locus of control framework. That way there aren't value-laden words like 'higher' in there. Some of us believe that the locus of change is internal, so we are better suited to behavioral approaches. Others prefer to look outside themselves for change--external locus--so they may be better suited to a 12 step model (or to a religious approach such as one of the Christian programs).
Don S

Hi BSP girl,

I think there are a lot people in AA who feel like heathens or infidels if they don't believe in God.

I went to treatment, was sober one and half years before I was nagged into AA. I stayed for a few years, was very active, before I left. I felt AA was stunting my growth and development.

AA is dependent on a belief in a God. The higher power stuff is semantics, certainly Bill Wilson (AA co-founder) never wanted to use the word higher power, it is just another word for God. If you read the 12 steps it uses the word God in steps 3,5,6 and 11. In step 7, the word him refers to God. The AA program grew out of the Oxford Group which was/is a Christian group; much of the AA program came out of Christianity. An AA member, Dick B, has written a book about it, called “The Good book and the Big book, AA's roots in the Bible"

http://www.dickb.com/goodbook.shtml

Last summer the International AA conference was in Toronto, a friend of mine in AA asked me if I would accompany him. I attended and I am glad I did, it confirmed for me that AA was a limiting power in my life. I attended an atheist/agnostic room which was interesting. The room was filled to the rafters and there was a line outside waiting to get in. A lot of people were upset with AA's dogmatism and how they felt excluded; many of them compared some in AA to evangelical born agains. I felt for them, they don't realise they can leave AA and it won't be the end of their life.

So don’t feel bad in you don’t believe in a higher power. Sobriety is decision and a determination, God is not required.

Untrue.
I see why you say that, though.
Arcane, archaic literature, in many cases, leaves little room for interpretation.

The 12 steps are the axis that AA revolves around and as I mentioned the 12 steps are rife with the word God. Steps 2,3,5,6,7,11 and 12 as well I think can't be practised without a belief in God.

If you go to an AA meeting you will hear the word God more than the word Bob was heard on the old Bob Newhart show.

Taiman, I can relate to what you're saying very much. I tried to participate in AA meetings too but I just couldn't get over the whole spiritual thing.
DangerousDan: provide me an example how to 'work the steps' from an atheist/agnostic/humanist point of view.

I fully believe that what works for some will not work for all. Although the AA program has certainly showed that it has worked for a lot of alcoholics, probably the most successful program of recovery. This is shown by its growth and spread to all different countries throughout the world.

I gave up without AA meetings but with a little AA knowledge and a feeling like if I ever need more support it is there.

I hadn't heard about the Smart program until coming onto SR but it sounds like there are lots of strategies suggested there to help as well. New kid on the block ...

Give up alcohol however it suits you, help people however you can and that is usually sharing your experience.

Just on the HP/God issue, I have been wondering a lot about it all lately. One thing that always hits me straight between the eyes is that every culture has a God/Gods/HP of its own choosing. There are many similarities between the teachings regardless of the actual entity of the HP.

I believe humanism would share similar beliefs. I too look inside me for the right answers, because I believe we all have the same life force given to us by this world we live in, we share it with everything in this world. I can find the answers within myself, my subconscious can be altered to help me think differently. But I really like to talk about what I think to test it out, that is what I find AA is great for, sharing and working out my thoughts.

I don't take on board everyone elses thoughts, just the ones that I find something in at the time. That goes for AA too, not everything I find there I am going to like or agree with.

I do like that people are referred to AA through doctors and the courts. Some of the people on this board have said that it helped them to have to go to AA meetings, even if at the time they weren't ready. Nothing else they have tried has helped so I really can't see the problem in referring them to a program that has a history of helping. Alcoholics are not easy to help, usually pretty stubborn individuals who already "know it all", well that is what I am like to a certain extent.

love brigid :)

Perhaps (and don't take this the wrong way) if your own best thinking and best efforts got you into a miserable spot in life, then it's time to change your thinking?



I belive that's what Linda said she did.


ladybug little

Well, I'm an agnostic or an atheist, I suppose, given I was never able to reconcile the religion I was born into, christianity, with anything that purports to be of the intention of achieving a greater good for all human beings.

I believe in an ultimate circumstance.
I believe that it is my calling to live a dignified, serene life in the space and time I occupy in the universe.
I also happen to believe that what I would call a good example of working the steps as an atheist/agnostic/humanist probably wouldn't look like much more than newsprint around a stale piece of fish to most people who've tried AA and decided that it need not be part of their recovery journey.

And I'm okay with that.

That the rooms, and the literature are filled with the word god certainly may offer up a stumbling block to some, and I understand that.
But my lived experience in AA is filled with tough as nails, anti-god/religion/christianity, what have you, men and women who found a way, and decided to stick around and share it.

Seems like a good gig to me, and as the months and years go by, my relationship to AA becomes simpler. I believe enough in myself, to know and accept the difference between important matters, and stuff that really has no bearing on my sobriety, no matter who says what;)

If Alcoholism is a disease (I am not sure it is) than your thinking can't be the cause of it.

My best thinking got me sober and keeps me sober.

Yeah, by all means, let's complicate this great thread with the disease concept.

Dan I mean this in all sincerity, can you tell me how you worked the steps without God? I know AA has its atheists but I haven't met one yet that has worked all the steps, some of the steps but not all of them. I believe if you are an atheist you have to skip some steps or change them.

How do you deal with the arrogance of the believers? So many times I was told I was missing out because I wouldn't accept God, as they put it. They felt spiritually superior to me. I told them from my point of view you are like a child who still believes in Santa Claus, this enraged them. I know it wasn't nice but I got exasperated with their high and mightiness.