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I sometimes feel like a "heathen" or something.

Old 01-24-2006, 06:23 PM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Taiman
My opinion can't be ignorant, it is my opinion. I have asked how the steps can be worked without a belief in God, I even pointed out which steps I think must be skipped or changed if one doesn't believe in God, so far no one has been able to answer me.
...
They change them:
http://agnosticaa.org/

Originally Posted by Cathy
DonS has never been to a meeting, yet he is INFORMED.
Well, that's progress!
Good to hear about your sister, Cathy...

My new higher power:
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Old 01-24-2006, 06:27 PM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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this seems to be a heated topic.

God as we understand him, Higher Power, is a principle that is dependent on what is outside of you. that is the trouble for most people.

They say that you must use Honesty, Open-Mindedness, and Willingness. But is "Open-Mindedness" a clever hidden-agenda word for "Believeing in What We Tell You" ???

you see, these are the same problems I have.

Krisha Consciousness teaches that You are the Supreme Godhead, and there is no need to meditate on anything outside of you in order to transcend Samasara (the karmic wheel, death/rebirth). This divinity that which is God, is within you.

My take is this, however:
The Higher Power, or "God as we understand Him" can simply, within the guidelines of a 12 step program, be that form of yourself that is yet to become known to the world. It can be the Higher You; as long as you know that your using self is a lower evolution than the divine spark within you.
And, is BPSGirls's point, you kind of have to keep this silent.. and with vigiliance. I tried speaking of these principles at a 12-step meeting and I got attacked by the NA Nazis. NA Nazis usually dont work a good program, because they forgot about the Open-Mindedness part.

And, as I pointed out in a differnt reply, the followers of a religion or spiritual program such as the fellowship of NA/AA, are not the program itself. The program is in the literature. The meeting is not the program. The program is mostly found in the book and through work that we do ourselves.

I strongly encourage people who can't stand a 12 step program to try Rational Recovery website here because it is the most popular alternative recovery program.

I also think that people who blankly state "Go to a meeting" are just trying to help, and don't know how else to. You should TRY to attend a meetings, it won't hurt. But if it's not for you, you have to AT LEAST find something healthy to replace the unhealthy things you have habitually done. Many people find this is meetings-- but we don't have to to be clean, attain pure happiness, and live a fulfilling life! That's the whole point. IF you don't believe this, you have lost all of your open-mindeness to a CULT, which is run by the brainswashed fools, and you are one of them. The program, however, is not a cult.

Its run by the idea that "One addict can best help another addict" -- and that is why it is still alive and well as an accepted organization in society.
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Old 01-24-2006, 06:45 PM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by NoMoBeer
Taiman, an ego? Nah, he's his own higher power.....

I have to say, everyone on this thread sounds like kids who aren't getting along in the sandbox...

I have to say in observing, that the AA folks tend to go along with the flow, while those who are "non-AA" for lack of a better term, vehemently defend their right to not believe in God, or say "show me how to work the steps without God," or "your sister will have to believe in God.... ya da ya da ya da... for this AAer, I say -- believe what you want, I honestly don't care. If you'd like to hit yourself in the head with a 2X4 to stay sober, God bless -- oops, I mean -- good for you..

Taiman, frankly (this is my opinion only), I don't give a rat's ass how many positions you've held in AA. You typically take a stance on these boards against AA, and it is actually quite funny to watch. I certainly don't want to argue your views -- if you don't like AA, that's fine... just don't try to sway others from trying it out, that's all I would ask. The highest ranking position we can hope to attain in AA is sober. Maybe you felt denied b/c you never got to be president.
Ken
As I don't believe in God I can't be my own higher power but I was waiting for someone to make the comment that you did. If I don't believe in God, I must think I am God....and God bless me..sure you mean it.

If you don't care what I believe why are you saying I must be own higher power and making sarcastic comments about me wanting to be President.The truth is most of the positions I had, someone else nominated me and they begged me to take them. I didn't find nor was I looking for any prestige in these positions. I don't think counting quarters, making coffee, selling literature, making announcements, or coordinating the group schedule was very prestigious. I listed my positions because someone accused me of lying about being in AA. I think it shows I was around AA long enough to understand it. I researched AA both through AA's own literature, those people who were around in the early days and books. I would say my knowledge of AA is rather extensive.

I have taken a stance against AA, I have simply told the truth about AA as I see it. As Don's post has pointed out, it was necessary to change the steps for Atheists to complete them. Rather than attacking me why don't you respond to the specific questions I have put forth, that way you can add something of value.

I will say it is curious how the AA people will swarm the Alcoholism board when they have their own. Suggest AA to any poster no matter what the suggestion, say the SMART and other programs can't equal but the moment someone who knows the truth about AA speaks up, they attack personally. One would have to wonder about any organisation that can't take a little questioning and discussion but I am Mr. No More Beer that and others here don't speak for AA.
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Old 01-24-2006, 06:51 PM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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As Don's post has pointed out, it was necessary to change the steps for Atheists to complete them.
As you can see, it was agnostics who rewrote those steps. I have no idea how atheists do it, except possibly to ignore the parts of the program that they don't agree with.
I've noticed some in AA emphasize the steps, others emphasize the importance of the sponsor, and others focus on the value of the meetings. Perhaps atheists who use AA simply find the peer support of the meetings valuable.
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Old 01-24-2006, 06:54 PM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Taiman
I have taken a stance against AA, I have simply told the truth about AA as I see it.
Why are you so against AA ?

Could AA really have hamed you to the point where you feel you have some mission in life to steer people away from the programme ?

I do believe you were once a very productive member of AA.

What I am beginning to doubt is that you do not in some way still harbour a grudge against the fellowship for some harm you feel it may have caused you.

And that's just how I see it.
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Old 01-24-2006, 07:05 PM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Peter
Wrong again Mr. Taiman.

As an old AA "veteran" you should know they can. Why you would make that allegation when you obviously know better is beyond me and seems just a tad irresponsible.

I sir was an atheist when I found AA and worked all the Steps you mentioned by accepting AA as my Higher Power and "God" as simply an acronmy for "Good Orderly Direction"

Yes AA evolved out of the christian based "Oxford group."
Yes Bill W was a deeply religious man who heavily wrote his beliefs into the basic text of AA but there is an entire chapter in the book that allows us the freedom to choose whatever concept of a Higher Power we feel comfortable with. Even if it is the wind.

All that is requred is a little faith in the belief that there are forces in this universe more powerful than ourselves. It really is not that hard you know.

I am comfortable with my belief system and what AA represents.

What I am NOT comfortable with is the perpetuation of falsity about a programme that is helping millions.
Please explain how these steps in their present form can be practiced without a belief in God? I look forward to your response.

Bil Wilson was many things, he certainly wasn't very good at practising his religion, nor was he much of a stock broker. Wilson was high on belladona when he had his "psychic change" and spiritual experience. He was high on LSD for the first few years of his "sobriety". He was a notorious womanizer. He practically invented 13th stepping. He left his mistress money in his will which is a matter of public record. Wilson's friends claims he lied about many things he put in the Big Book, the amount people in AA when they wrote the book for starters. His friends say he couldn't pay anyone to stay sober in the early days. You notice how you never hear anything further about poor Ebby Thatcher after he brings the "message" to Bill Wilson. There are many stories about how poor Ebby couldn't stay sober and how he spent the last of his days at some horrible institution which was the only way he could stay sober.

I am guessing you know that Bill Wilson opposed the idea of AAers picking their own higher power? He wanted only the word God not Higher Power. The chapter to the Agnostic basically says believe or die, hardly an answer.

After the 12 steps in Chapter 5 of how it works in the big book it says "Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures made clear three pertinent ideas:

A) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
B)That probably no human power could have relieved out alcoholism (note Good Orderly Direction is a human power)
C)That God could and would if he were sought.

Seems I am correct, AA says no human power could relieve your alcoholism only God if he is sought!!!!!

You Sir are wrong.
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Old 01-24-2006, 07:18 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Peter
Why are you so against AA ?

Could AA really have hamed you to the point where you feel you have some mission in life to steer people away from the programme ?

I do believe you were once a very productive member of AA.

What I am beginning to doubt is that you do not in some way still harbour a grudge against the fellowship for some harm you feel it may have caused you.

And that's just how I see it.
I have no grudge against AA, it didn't do me any harm. I just got to the point where I felt my growth was stunted by it so I left. People begged me not to go that I wouldn't stay sober and I am today sober over 13 years.

I see AA today as a religion which can't be questioned, people hold the big book to be gospel truth and Bill Wilson some sort of prophet. AA has stopped growing and its numbers remain steady, despite making in roads into new countries like India and China. I think AA can still offer a lot, IF IT OPENS ITS MIND, or the people in it, more accurately.

AA has a very low success rate 5% by its own records. I have seen legions of people fail in AA and in desperation ask my why, it didn't fail you did seems a hollow answer to a man who had thrown his heart and soul into it. I have been to the funerals, I wasn't particularly close to any of the people that died, still it was sad to bury them all the same. I think AA has to become more inclusive and more open to question itself like many denominations of Christianity have.

I know I shake the tree. I am pleased you have stayed in sober in AA, especially being an atheist like myself. I am glad when anyone with a problem drinking stays sober even the ones here who attack me.

I think AA needs to better address its growing contingent of agnostics and atheists. Certainly many are unhappy. A old friend asked me to go to the International AA Conference in Toronto last summer and since I am in Toronto I did. One of the rooms I went to was an agnostic room, it was full and a line up outside was waiting to get in. After the speakers they opened things up to the floor, people screamed, shouted, jumped and cried. They were very upset and felt there was no place for them in AA and that they had no where to go. I felt for them.

If I open a few minds, make a few people question their stagnant beliefs I am pleased. I think Christianity is stronger for its debate, its questioning. I am glad masses are no longer in Latin and the average man is no longer excluded. I am glad we can debate about books like The DaVinci Code (despite its flaws). In my opinion AA needs to become more open.
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Old 01-24-2006, 07:46 PM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by CarolD
What a damned shame if unbelievers are incorrect!!
Didn't Osama Bin Laden say something to this effect? Infidel means unbelievers.
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Old 01-24-2006, 08:01 PM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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Taiman
You know what's funny? We AAers don't swarm the board, but we do speak up when attacked or someone posts something that just isn't correct.

I haven't attacked you -- just having a little fun -- and stating my opinion, isn't that what you like to do?

If you read the boards, many AA folks say that there are numerous ways to get and stay sober, yet you must try to prove AA wrong. I just don't get it...


I don't care what program someone works -- just work it and do whatever is necessary to stay sober...

NoMo
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Old 01-24-2006, 08:07 PM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Taiman
Didn't Osama Bin Laden say something to this effect? Infidel means unbelievers.
Agitation seems to be a strong point in your dialectic, Taiman.
This is where I smile and recognize the lack of originality in your quasi-veiled attempts to discredit and point out the imperfections of Alcoholics Anonymous.
There's nothing new in what you're saying, be it the fact that there are, have been, and always will be people in AA demanding change, for reasons as varied as there are colors in the spectrum, or your carefully calculated insertions of already documented and ad nauseam repeated flaws of Bill W.

I'd really like to think otherwise Taiman, and I may still, but so far, aside from an extremely well presented (verbally, anyway) criticism and analysis, your posts leave me wondering exactly which side of the site founder's equation for coming here you fall under; to get help, or to give help.
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Old 01-24-2006, 08:25 PM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dan
Agitation seems to be a strong point in your dialectic, Taiman.
This is where I smile and recognize the lack of originality in your quasi-veiled attempts to discredit and point out the imperfections of Alcoholics Anonymous.
There's nothing new in what you're saying, be it the fact that there are, have been, and always will be people in AA demanding change, for reasons as varied as there are colors in the spectrum, or your carefully calculated insertions of already documented and ad nauseam repeated flaws of Bill W.

I'd really like to think otherwise Taiman, and I may still, but so far, aside from an extremely well presented (verbally, anyway) criticism and analysis, your posts leave me wondering exactly which side of the site founder's equation for coming here you fall under; to get help, or to give help.
I am glad I can make you smile and that you are already aware of the numerous flaws in Bill Wilson, obviously I can't be original in repeating them. I would have hoped you would have welcomed a dialogue about AA.

I suppose when people make comments that sound like a Bin Laden statement in a pious fashion, it is tough not to point them out.

Agitation is what turns an oyster into a pearl, if one plateaus too much one fails to progress.

I am sensing a thinly veiled insult in asking me which side of the equation I fall under to give help or get help. From your responses so far which for the most part I liked, I found this slight to be beneath you.

To say one comes here to give help only, suggests one has nothing to learn. To say one comes here to get help only, suggests one has nothing to give. So I guess I am open to both sides of the coin.
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Old 01-24-2006, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by NoMoBeer
Taiman
You know what's funny? We AAers don't swarm the board, but we do speak up when attacked or someone posts something that just isn't correct.

I haven't attacked you -- just having a little fun -- and stating my opinion, isn't that what you like to do?

If you read the boards, many AA folks say that there are numerous ways to get and stay sober, yet you must try to prove AA wrong. I just don't get it...


I don't care what program someone works -- just work it and do whatever is necessary to stay sober...

NoMo
I guess we have different definitions of swarm.

So far no one has been able to post where I am incorrect but I have used parts of the Big Book to sustain and prove my point of view.

I haven't gone after any one person, excluding Bill Wilson, I have spoken of AA only, yet you go after me. I could attack you and effectively but I choose not to. However as you and Dan have pointed out my ego is big, certainly big enough to be unaffected by predictable insults.

The only point of AA I have tried to prove wrong is AA's claim that you need a higher power to stay sober but its own atheist members have already done this.

I pointed out AA is predicated on a belief in God. The Big Book is clear about this. I have quoted the Big Book in prior posts to prove this. It is AA's members who are misinformed when they say AA doesn't require you to believe in God. People may stay sober in AA without God but AA says this isn't possible.

No program is required to get sober, you can do it on your own. Certainly it is a tough way but it is possible. No program is required to stay sober, the world is filled with sober alcoholics who use nothing more than their own determination to stay sober and as we know after a while drinking isn't even a thought.

Anyway I must be getting to bed, thanks for the discussion. I hope you all are sober the next I come here.
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Old 01-24-2006, 08:39 PM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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When I first got sober, I was in rehab which required AA attendance. I attended even though alot of what I was hearing, I could not apply in my life.

I am an atheist and was never able to bridge the gap between AA philosophy and my own belief (or disbelief). I felt pushed to believe in AA and the 12 steps or I would use again and probably die. And yes, I was told that it was the only way to get sober, nothing else would work. I was told this by the counsellers in the facility, AA members, a psychiatrist and doctors in the hospital detox ward. I didn't even realize that there were other options for recovery out there until I came to this site. Today, I work no formal program except the program of not drinking. I'm not always happy and it's not always easy, but I never expected that it would be. It is hard work some days, but I feel rewarded everytime I make the choice not to drink.

While it is correct that if I use again, I most likely will die or have something horrible happen to me, this result is not directly linked to my AA participation. It is linked to my choice to drink or use again. I think that the "ultimatum" style of response to not agreeing with AA is what was the clincher for me and the program.

For me, the program does not fit. But even though it does not work for me, why should I care if others are having no problem with it. When I saw that I was not going to continue with AA, I simply stopped going. It was becoming counter-productive and it was better for me to walk away.

Like with any human organization, there will always be zealots and people that take it to an unhealthy level. It is not my responsibility to change an organization that has worked fine without me for years and will continue to chug along nicely long after I'm gone. Having said that, I do wish that the powers that be in government(Canada), would offer other options for people desperate to get sober. I was desperate enough to risk winging it on my own, other's may not be.
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Old 01-24-2006, 08:44 PM
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i dont think AA or NA's writers will ever go down in history as "the greatest philsophers of all time" so you have to take their epistomology with a grain of salt. they were just trying to help people stay clean. you know how some people who believe in god and/or jesus are so fundamental about it, its cuz they are in a pigeonhole, or reality tunnel. but, attacking their reality tunnel never seems to help much-- they end up bashing you right back. thats really pointless. so as long as you stand up for your right to be tolerated, not neccessarily loved, you have a place for yourself.

you have a right to be athiest or agnostic! whoever said otherwise indirectly or directly is full of baloney! there is no "Believe or Die" that is totally the makings of a luminous cult.

love and light my friends.

Last edited by emmanuel2012; 01-24-2006 at 08:47 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-24-2006, 08:54 PM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Taiman
Please explain how these steps in their present form can be practiced without a belief in God?


Good Orderly Direction is a human power

AA says no human power could relieve your alcoholism only God if he is sought!!!!!

You asked for an explanation how someone who "does not believe in God" would apply the Steps.

I answered you by saying I worked The Steps By accepting AA as my (then ) Higher Power and by replacing God with Good Orderly Direction.

You then go on to say "Good orderly Direction is a "Human power".

Whether you regard it as "Human power" or "whatever power" Mr Taiman the point is " I found a way to work the Steps without a belief in God"

What exactly IS your point?

First you claim that "The Steps cannot be worked without a belief in God"

Then you finish up by saying "atheists in AA have already proved it possible to stay sober without a belief in God"

Perhaps your confusion lies in your own stereotype of whom or what you think God is.

Sleep tight Mr. Taiman.
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Old 01-24-2006, 09:14 PM
  # 56 (permalink)  
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Wow, uhhh...this thread got a bit derailed I guess!

Anyway I wanted to let ya know I read it all, I just choose to react to one thing that caught me:

BSP -- Sheesh, sorry -- I can't remember why you started this thread -- as long as you are sober today, though... that's what counts. I think you made reference to 'why the courts send folks to AA in the states.' I think, and again -- this is my opinion -- because it's a program that can be monitored, and at least these folks will do SOMETHING about their drinking. Yes, it's true that many of the people who are in the rooms to get their paper signed don't WANT to be there, but at least there is the possibility they will get sober. I've seen some of them really come around and WANT to stay sober -- that's a magical thing! I believe in God, and I truly believe those are the miracles of AA. If a judge ordered someone to pick up a book on SMART, and do some work on their own, how many drunks would actually follow through? AA signs the paper, doesn't cost the 'system' any money to put these people through a 'program,' and if we're all lucky the person will sober up and not drive drunk any more, risking lives...
That's all well and good a judge wants to help fighting drinking problems and all but uhhh...imo it's wrong to not recognize SMART Recovery as a valid method to stay sober. They, too, got face to face meetings, they got online meetings like daily even and they can send you a verification email if you need it for any judge or justice entity.

This being said, let's move on: I didn't start this thread to go AA bashing, I'm glad many of you had good experiences (even as atheists/agnostics) in the meetings, perhaps it depends on the group and meeting you're attending too. I'm not gonna say I'll never ever attend a meeting again, I mean if the urges are bad and I get in an 'whatever may work' mood, I might, who knows, eh? I created this thread cuz I do enjoy a bit of debate. Stay open minded, all of you.

What also gets to me at times is that NA/AA tends to label ppl as 'stupid' drunks/addicts who have to 'keep it simple'. Scientifically proven psychology concepts are sometimes deemed as 'too complicated', while I been at SMART and I can tell you: if I understand it, everybody's able to. What's your take on this labeling?
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Old 01-24-2006, 10:22 PM
  # 57 (permalink)  
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When I started recovery my brain was saturated with alcohol.
I needed a simple answer to my alcoholism.

I cared not what 'lable' I wore. and I still do not.

I was not court ordered...or pushed into AA..
or poor or homeless
but I was losing my mind.

Heck,,,I fluncked my MENSA test!

Thanks for letting me share on my personal miracle.
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:07 AM
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"Has nothing to do with luck, but rather everything to do with who I am, how I comport myself, and furthermore, my undeniable belief that there is goodness and usefulness in all human beings. Sometimes though, they don't know that yet."

This be the verse.
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:21 AM
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Rewritten, hang on.
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Old 01-25-2006, 01:36 AM
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Dan, how odd that you should mention "goodness in people". I was at an Al-anon Step 2 meeting last night and a member shared exactly that as the foundation of her belief. To me, that is what spirituality is all about - the spirit that is within each and every one of us.

I had quite a major crisis of faith in Al-anon late last year due to my agnosticism, which I resolved through being asked to do the main share on Step 11. In my usual roundabout way, Step 2 then came into sharper focus. Collective wisdom is the bedrock of my solution with the belief that the answers to my questions are available to me, as long as I am willing to listen.

So far, so good. I have not yet needed to grapple with this in relation to the Steps.
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