Support for the Relapser
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,163
I always understood the powerlessness to be after I take the first drink, not before.
Before I take that drink, I do have the power, whether I chose to excercise it or not is another issue.
For me, the difference came when I fully accepted on an emotional core level that after that drink, EVERY time it was going to turn into a sh$t show. Maybe not that day, but eventually, and then I would have to stop again after causing yet more pain and suffering in my wake.
I did not need to hit rock bottom, although I did do a lot of things I regret, but I did need to fully accept my addiction. What makes us accept that is different for each of us, but once we are there, we know the gig is up. And continung to drink thereafter causes huge cognitive dissonance, which I could not live with.
But I do believe in the power of the universe and was more than happy to accept it on my journey, and it was happy to oblige.
Great to see you Mike.
Before I take that drink, I do have the power, whether I chose to excercise it or not is another issue.
For me, the difference came when I fully accepted on an emotional core level that after that drink, EVERY time it was going to turn into a sh$t show. Maybe not that day, but eventually, and then I would have to stop again after causing yet more pain and suffering in my wake.
I did not need to hit rock bottom, although I did do a lot of things I regret, but I did need to fully accept my addiction. What makes us accept that is different for each of us, but once we are there, we know the gig is up. And continung to drink thereafter causes huge cognitive dissonance, which I could not live with.
But I do believe in the power of the universe and was more than happy to accept it on my journey, and it was happy to oblige.
Great to see you Mike.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
"I always understood the powerlessness to be after I take the first drink, not before.
Before I take that drink, I do have the power, whether I chose to excercise it or not is another issue."
yeah, that was my stumbling block. it was what i believed HAD to be so: that i had that power and the choice to exercise it BEFORE the first drink. and this is certainly what it looked like AFTER the fact of drinking again: i must have made that choice not to exercise my power.
took me a long time to see and admit that nothing like freely choosing every time was actually true for me.many times, i couldn't NOT get that first one.
oddly, i came across one of my old postings just yesterday; can't remember how old, or from where, but i bookmarked it and then had lost it over the years:
"...so when i hear people here say that the choice to drink was/is always theirs, i know it wasn't true for me.
choices in recovery are something else. maybe my biggest bestest brightest choice is to choose to remember that there was/is an impaired choice in my power/control. i can choose to remind myself of that......"
i have no illusion that anything i might say could stop someone from relapse, but i do think saying "hey, i see you doing/not doing these things, and they ...." is more than appropriate, useless or not.
Before I take that drink, I do have the power, whether I chose to excercise it or not is another issue."
yeah, that was my stumbling block. it was what i believed HAD to be so: that i had that power and the choice to exercise it BEFORE the first drink. and this is certainly what it looked like AFTER the fact of drinking again: i must have made that choice not to exercise my power.
took me a long time to see and admit that nothing like freely choosing every time was actually true for me.many times, i couldn't NOT get that first one.
oddly, i came across one of my old postings just yesterday; can't remember how old, or from where, but i bookmarked it and then had lost it over the years:
"...so when i hear people here say that the choice to drink was/is always theirs, i know it wasn't true for me.
choices in recovery are something else. maybe my biggest bestest brightest choice is to choose to remember that there was/is an impaired choice in my power/control. i can choose to remind myself of that......"
i have no illusion that anything i might say could stop someone from relapse, but i do think saying "hey, i see you doing/not doing these things, and they ...." is more than appropriate, useless or not.
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Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,909
Not trying to hijack the thread into a discussion about powerlessness but looking more at my reply as to how I support a relapser by sharing my experience.
I could not sleep through the night without my body waking me up because it was screaming for alcohol. I would pound a few beers so that I could go back to "sleep". Yes it was my choice to pound those few beers...or was it? Physically I had to have those beers.
The first time I went cold turkey, I made the choice not to have those few beers that my body needed. I had a seizure from acute alcohol withdrawal which could have been fatal without prompt medical attention.
Mentally I could choose not to drink. Physically, I could not. I consider that a clear cut definition of powerless.
Not quite as clear cut, but the same thing only different, there were also plenty of times that mentally I couldn't really choose to not drink...I had to.
That is an example of how I support a relapser. I stick to the only subject that I feel halfway knowledgeable about, myself and my experience. If the relapser wants to know what I did to move past that, I am more than glad to share that but once again, I stick to how I did it, not how they should do it.
This approach is neither right nor wrong, it is just what I do.
I could not sleep through the night without my body waking me up because it was screaming for alcohol. I would pound a few beers so that I could go back to "sleep". Yes it was my choice to pound those few beers...or was it? Physically I had to have those beers.
The first time I went cold turkey, I made the choice not to have those few beers that my body needed. I had a seizure from acute alcohol withdrawal which could have been fatal without prompt medical attention.
Mentally I could choose not to drink. Physically, I could not. I consider that a clear cut definition of powerless.
Not quite as clear cut, but the same thing only different, there were also plenty of times that mentally I couldn't really choose to not drink...I had to.
That is an example of how I support a relapser. I stick to the only subject that I feel halfway knowledgeable about, myself and my experience. If the relapser wants to know what I did to move past that, I am more than glad to share that but once again, I stick to how I did it, not how they should do it.
This approach is neither right nor wrong, it is just what I do.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
Originally Posted by fini 
" took me a long time to see and admit that nothing like freely choosing every time was actually true for me.many times, i couldn't NOT get that first one.
"...so when i hear people here say that the choice to drink was/is always theirs, i know it wasn't true for me.
"...so when i hear people here say that the choice to drink was/is always theirs, i know it wasn't true for me.
1. If the choice to pick up a drink wasn’t your own: whose choice was it? Who made you pick up a drink against your decision not to? Who raised your hand and poured the drink into your mouth? Who caused you to drink, if it wasn’t you?
2. If the choice to stop drinking wasn’t your own: whose choice was it? Who stopped you raising your hand to your mouth and pouring the drink in? Who caused you to stop drinking, if it wasn’t you?
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 2,654
As a rider, I’d add, that I fully understand the ‘choicelessness’ that Nez spoke of above. I experienced a d absolute horror of ‘having’ to drink, to ameliorate potentially life-threatening withdrawals.
A vicious circle of desperation. And once those dirst few drinks were taken, my rational brain checked out. In my experience, instead of ameliorating......and doing a planned taper: many more drinks, than actually required for safety, were imbibed. And back to square one.
A vicious circle of desperation. And once those dirst few drinks were taken, my rational brain checked out. In my experience, instead of ameliorating......and doing a planned taper: many more drinks, than actually required for safety, were imbibed. And back to square one.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,163
Fini, I totally get what you are saying and I think it can become almost subconcious to "decide" to drink. Automatic in a way. And sometimes people really need to drink not to die. But for me, given where I was when I stopped, I could still decide.
I had a terrible experience last night. One of my friends is a raging alcoholic and called me in such a state. We haven't talked for months because she is a really mean drunk, but I took her call, and it was so devastingly sad. She has lost her entire family to cancer (3 siblings and her parents) and her son died from fentanoyl poisoning last year. Her remaining son is really struggling with drugs and alcohol and her husband is a jerk anyway and has had it.
The feeling of being totally alone was so palpable, but she was so blasted that I could not help, at least not from 5000 miles away. She really could not understand what I was saying. Like the word were too hard. There but for the grace of God go I.
Circling back to our discussion, I don't think at this point she decides to drink. She is past that. That is what she does. She breathes air. She drinks. But I also know she could stop. She is a tough cookie, but she does not want to. So depressing. But another good reminder why I will NQTD. X
I had a terrible experience last night. One of my friends is a raging alcoholic and called me in such a state. We haven't talked for months because she is a really mean drunk, but I took her call, and it was so devastingly sad. She has lost her entire family to cancer (3 siblings and her parents) and her son died from fentanoyl poisoning last year. Her remaining son is really struggling with drugs and alcohol and her husband is a jerk anyway and has had it.
The feeling of being totally alone was so palpable, but she was so blasted that I could not help, at least not from 5000 miles away. She really could not understand what I was saying. Like the word were too hard. There but for the grace of God go I.
Circling back to our discussion, I don't think at this point she decides to drink. She is past that. That is what she does. She breathes air. She drinks. But I also know she could stop. She is a tough cookie, but she does not want to. So depressing. But another good reminder why I will NQTD. X
Life Goes On
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
The question of who decides to drink is a curious one.
In his book, "Rational Recovery, The New Cure for Substance Addiction," Jack Trimpey describes a condition he names "vertigo." This is when a person feels as if the decision to drink or drug has already been made. He describes this as one form of "beast attack," in which the beast has gained a foothold and used the Addictive Voice to make the decision (in a seemingly subconscious way - or at least that's how I interpret this description. So while you made the decision, it was made without actually thinking about it.) Trimpey says if you find yourself in the liquor store without your permission, this is the time to say, "I am having vertigo!" and to remind yourself that you Never drink Now because you've made The Big Plan to never drink again and to never change your mind. (One must keep an eye out for beast activity on an ongoing basis.)
In the AA Big Book, it says, "The fact is that most alcoholics... have lost the power of choice to drink. Our so-called willpower becomes practically non-existent." AA suggests that following the 12-steps removes that barrier - the obsession is lifted. You don't drink because you've made a commitment to never drink again with the help of your Higher Power. (But the wariness of ever being tempted to take that first drink remains.)
To me, these are essentially the same descriptions of being powerless over the first drink. The answers are fundamentally the same in both cases - you must gain the self-knowledge and wherewithal to recognize and dismiss the vertigo or obsession through your own power, backed by either The Big Plan or your Higher Power (which, when I think about it, could be The Big Plan.)
I realize this may be considered blasphemy on both sides of the fence, but that's how I see it. With the exception of extremists from both camps, I feel that we're fundamentally the same - we just use different perspectives to avoid that "unplanned" first drink.
In his book, "Rational Recovery, The New Cure for Substance Addiction," Jack Trimpey describes a condition he names "vertigo." This is when a person feels as if the decision to drink or drug has already been made. He describes this as one form of "beast attack," in which the beast has gained a foothold and used the Addictive Voice to make the decision (in a seemingly subconscious way - or at least that's how I interpret this description. So while you made the decision, it was made without actually thinking about it.) Trimpey says if you find yourself in the liquor store without your permission, this is the time to say, "I am having vertigo!" and to remind yourself that you Never drink Now because you've made The Big Plan to never drink again and to never change your mind. (One must keep an eye out for beast activity on an ongoing basis.)
In the AA Big Book, it says, "The fact is that most alcoholics... have lost the power of choice to drink. Our so-called willpower becomes practically non-existent." AA suggests that following the 12-steps removes that barrier - the obsession is lifted. You don't drink because you've made a commitment to never drink again with the help of your Higher Power. (But the wariness of ever being tempted to take that first drink remains.)
To me, these are essentially the same descriptions of being powerless over the first drink. The answers are fundamentally the same in both cases - you must gain the self-knowledge and wherewithal to recognize and dismiss the vertigo or obsession through your own power, backed by either The Big Plan or your Higher Power (which, when I think about it, could be The Big Plan.)
I realize this may be considered blasphemy on both sides of the fence, but that's how I see it. With the exception of extremists from both camps, I feel that we're fundamentally the same - we just use different perspectives to avoid that "unplanned" first drink.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
Tatsy,
i wasn't likely to have severe withdrawals, so didn't "need" to drink to stave them off.
I appreciate your genuine questions, but cannot answer them in a manner that is likely to satisfy you or many others.
Obviously, it was me who did the buying, taking home, opening and lifting.
The WHO is not in question, since there is only me.
The free choice is what i did not experience myself as having. Confoundingly bizarre and nonsensical as that may sound to you, i drank when i had freely decided not to.
Against my will, so to speak.not freely chosen.
if it were freely chosen, then it would just be a different kind of irrationally insane.
i don't have your post visible, since i am on my phone, using data, cannot see what I'm responding to.
You asked about my choice not to drink, my stopping?
I could stop when i understood i was a drunk. That is how i suddenly comprehended my condition: i am a drunk.
In that moment, i stopped.
The "choice" to drink again or not has never come up after that; I've not needed to make it. It has been irrelevant.
i sincerely believe and experience my real choices to be about how to live my life as a recovered alcoholic by choosing to act along certain principles.
i don't wish to argue any points. My grappling with the choice-power-control-issue was done over many months sober, and many years drinking. It may not match your own condition at all if you feel you are making a choice with your rational mind about the first drink every time.
i wasn't likely to have severe withdrawals, so didn't "need" to drink to stave them off.
I appreciate your genuine questions, but cannot answer them in a manner that is likely to satisfy you or many others.
Obviously, it was me who did the buying, taking home, opening and lifting.
The WHO is not in question, since there is only me.
The free choice is what i did not experience myself as having. Confoundingly bizarre and nonsensical as that may sound to you, i drank when i had freely decided not to.
Against my will, so to speak.not freely chosen.
if it were freely chosen, then it would just be a different kind of irrationally insane.
i don't have your post visible, since i am on my phone, using data, cannot see what I'm responding to.
You asked about my choice not to drink, my stopping?
I could stop when i understood i was a drunk. That is how i suddenly comprehended my condition: i am a drunk.
In that moment, i stopped.
The "choice" to drink again or not has never come up after that; I've not needed to make it. It has been irrelevant.
i sincerely believe and experience my real choices to be about how to live my life as a recovered alcoholic by choosing to act along certain principles.
i don't wish to argue any points. My grappling with the choice-power-control-issue was done over many months sober, and many years drinking. It may not match your own condition at all if you feel you are making a choice with your rational mind about the first drink every time.
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Join Date: Jan 2018
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I must admit it’s always bothered me, the claims of different “types” of alcoholics or varying degrees of authenticity. We may have different perspectives and methods, but I don’t think we’re actually describing different things or conditions.
To say so is cognitive dissonance imo.. If being presented with evidence of an alcoholic recovering using a different method threatens one’s belief system, then conveniently they must not be a real alcoholic.
There aren’t different types, only different stages in a line of progression. It’s permanent for all of us. Being in an earlier stage doesn’t change the severity of the problem or the long term strategies or “principles” one has to learn to keep it dormant/in remission.
What I’d like to see is more unity and understanding on both sides of the control/power discussion. Much like I do with my own addiction, I’d prefer to play Switzerland. Not powerless, neutral. Choosing my battles wisely. Anyway I’ve veered away from the original topic of supporting habitual relapsers (which by definition we’ve all been). But my stance on that is that I’m unapologetically supportive, every time a person says they want to keep trying. No matter how many times it takes.
To say so is cognitive dissonance imo.. If being presented with evidence of an alcoholic recovering using a different method threatens one’s belief system, then conveniently they must not be a real alcoholic.
There aren’t different types, only different stages in a line of progression. It’s permanent for all of us. Being in an earlier stage doesn’t change the severity of the problem or the long term strategies or “principles” one has to learn to keep it dormant/in remission.
What I’d like to see is more unity and understanding on both sides of the control/power discussion. Much like I do with my own addiction, I’d prefer to play Switzerland. Not powerless, neutral. Choosing my battles wisely. Anyway I’ve veered away from the original topic of supporting habitual relapsers (which by definition we’ve all been). But my stance on that is that I’m unapologetically supportive, every time a person says they want to keep trying. No matter how many times it takes.
Finally Honest
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 301
Hey all,
For me my relapsing was directly tied to the thought I held onto that one day I could control my drinking. Only when that thought was totally smashed was I able to 100% give myself to working the steps and start receiving the freedom and promises of the the program. When I encounter people who relapse that's my first question "do you think that at some point in the future you will be able to have a few drinks/control your drinking?" 99% of the time if they are honest they admit to feeling that way.
For me my relapsing was directly tied to the thought I held onto that one day I could control my drinking. Only when that thought was totally smashed was I able to 100% give myself to working the steps and start receiving the freedom and promises of the the program. When I encounter people who relapse that's my first question "do you think that at some point in the future you will be able to have a few drinks/control your drinking?" 99% of the time if they are honest they admit to feeling that way.
Life Goes On
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
I've not been under the illusion that I could ever truly drink "normally" again, not for a very long time. I might have said I wished that were possible, but I knew in my bones it couldn't be. How could I ever again be sated by one or two drinks? Impossible.
If you included people in your survey who weren't trying to quit because they've given up and given in, I think that 1% might increase to a higher percentage.
If you included people in your survey who weren't trying to quit because they've given up and given in, I think that 1% might increase to a higher percentage.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,434
I did drift into magical moderation thinking over and over, even when I was content, productive, and quite happy in sobriety.
Because of that, my posts to relapsers, like Cosmina’s approach, typically are supportive and encourage getting back on the wagon right away but I also try to demonstrate empathy as I’ve been where they are many times which I think helps build a little credibility and hopefully trust.
Connection and caring helps us all. I know it helps me stay sober.
Because of that, my posts to relapsers, like Cosmina’s approach, typically are supportive and encourage getting back on the wagon right away but I also try to demonstrate empathy as I’ve been where they are many times which I think helps build a little credibility and hopefully trust.
Connection and caring helps us all. I know it helps me stay sober.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,027
Originally Posted by Hawkeye13
I did drift into magical moderation thinking over and over, even when I was content, productive, and quite happy in sobriety.
Because of that, my posts to relapsers, like Cosmina’s approach, typically are supportive and encourage getting back on the wagon right away but I also try to demonstrate empathy as I’ve been where they are many times which I think helps build a little credibility and hopefully trust.
Connection and caring helps us all. I know it helps me stay sober.
Because of that, my posts to relapsers, like Cosmina’s approach, typically are supportive and encourage getting back on the wagon right away but I also try to demonstrate empathy as I’ve been where they are many times which I think helps build a little credibility and hopefully trust.
Connection and caring helps us all. I know it helps me stay sober.
Just haven’t done it, and caution myself against it, on a daily basis. I can’t do this safely, it ends horribly.
Not saying I’m exempt, just that I have managed not to do this, so far.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
"The feeling of being totally alone was so palpable, but she was so blasted that I could not help, at least not from 5000 miles away. She really could not understand what I was saying. Like the word were too hard. "
ugh yes, sorry to hear of your evening like that. does she want help, you think?
ugh yes, sorry to hear of your evening like that. does she want help, you think?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,027
Originally Posted by fini
"The feeling of being totally alone was so palpable, but she was so blasted that I could not help, at least not from 5000 miles away. She really could not understand what I was saying. Like the word were too hard. "
ugh yes, sorry to hear of your evening like that. does she want help, you think?
ugh yes, sorry to hear of your evening like that. does she want help, you think?
My god those words bring back memories, and not good ones, as I was always the incoherent one from the other end of the conversation.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,163
She does not want help.
I have been brave many times, and suggested it, but she thinks she deserves to drink with all her loss.
I also think she knows in her heart of hearts that had she been coherent, she would have seen the signs before her eldest son's death. And that is something she cannot bear.
Even when I suggested that her stopping together with her youngest son might help HIM, she said that "that is just something I am not willing to do."
We share a common dear friend whom she is very close to and is very spiritual, who has never drunk, and she also does not even raise it any more.
I know it is going to kill her one way or the other, but I am totally helpless to help her. But she knows I am here, even though she has crossed every line more than once, but I am all she has.
I have the same magical thinking about my partner and I going on a big trip, which we will do, and having a few drinks in the evenings. And I still believe on some level that I might be able to handle it, and then I think of what I could lose (my daughters trust amoung other things) and I remind myself NQTD. I wish could say the thought never crosses my mind, but it does....
Magical thinking indeed...
I have been brave many times, and suggested it, but she thinks she deserves to drink with all her loss.
I also think she knows in her heart of hearts that had she been coherent, she would have seen the signs before her eldest son's death. And that is something she cannot bear.
Even when I suggested that her stopping together with her youngest son might help HIM, she said that "that is just something I am not willing to do."
We share a common dear friend whom she is very close to and is very spiritual, who has never drunk, and she also does not even raise it any more.
I know it is going to kill her one way or the other, but I am totally helpless to help her. But she knows I am here, even though she has crossed every line more than once, but I am all she has.
I have the same magical thinking about my partner and I going on a big trip, which we will do, and having a few drinks in the evenings. And I still believe on some level that I might be able to handle it, and then I think of what I could lose (my daughters trust amoung other things) and I remind myself NQTD. I wish could say the thought never crosses my mind, but it does....
Magical thinking indeed...
Member
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 598
I think our alcoholism, its origin, manifestation and remission will differ vastly just as our lives, personalities and circumstances differ. So will our roads to and paths in recovery. I doubt if there is a right or wrong way. There is what works for each of us personally and what does not work. The common denominator is that not one of us can drink again. For some sobriety will bring supreme happiness, for other not. Whatever the outcome, we can never drink again.
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