Stayingsassy

Some people choose to continue drinking until their death.

And yeah, I get all lit up thinking of drinking on vacation. Still. My AV wants to separate the sad, booze soaked, crumpled mess hiding in the bedroom with the fun adventurous cocktail drinking wife in a short skirt going bar hopping. They can’t be, though. They are one and the same.

I don’t know what stops me from the first one. The sense that I have escaped a trap I’ve tried to get out of for decades, and the belief that for me, one is too many and a thousand is never enough, I think.

tomsteve

what i think it that we arent robots-all the same. we will be who we are and share how we share. it would be a rather bland message if everyone shared the same way.
the rules, enforced by the mods, determine if its appropriate or not.

Obladi

Thanks, tomsteve, we are in agreement. I thought we'd sufficiently cleared this up earlier on in this thread and moved on, so am disheartened to read your response. The original post was clearly labeled as my opinion and I was in no way trying to dictate the way that anyone offers support in any forum.

I sure do hope, though, that you wouldn't discourage anyone from posting or refrain from providing appropriate firm and/OR compassionate support to the alcoholic who still suffers? That's the sum total of the conclusion you quoted above. I've known you to do both and I admire that in you.

Obladi

entropy.

I don't know what the best thing is to "do" for your friend. I'm not sure you can help her at all, which is sad, but I also don't think you need to entertain her drunken phone calls. She likely doesn't remember anything she said or you said the next day anyhow.

Two things got through to me when I phoned a friend inappropriately:
- Friend 1 said the day afterward, "I'd like to help you, but please don't call me when you've been drinking." That was embarrassing but totally fair.
- Friend 2 said in response to my extreme drunken despondent state, "No, O. I'm not doing this. I'm not going to listen to this. Get yourself together and get the help you need. I'll be here, but you must do something now to fix this."

Neither of these was a magic bullet, but they did get through to me. I think either or both might be appropriate in your case?

Obladi

Sorry, Dropsie and entropy - I was lazy and didn't look back to validate who was talking about their friend!!

Stayingsassy

Those are some good friends, O.

I never got that kind of feedback from friends but I could have used it.

The husband on the other hand, who bore the brunt of my drama, well...

fini

Dropsie, it's helpful that your friend is very upfront about not being willing; for me, i find it takes some of the torturous aspects out. helps me greatly to detach when someone is that clear.

Gottalife

Tatsy, you always ask good questions and as I didn't see any direct response, let me see if I can offer an answer.

1) Many people ask this question of the alcoholic. From the outside it seems a straight forward issue. Why can't you just decide to stop and make it stick? It is a question I frequently asked myself. I decided/made the choice/ was determined not to drink, and then drank anyway.

I made my decision to not drink based on sane and logical considerations. One time I had just been released from court having had a significant scare about where the drink was taking me. Within minutes I was drinking again, and within hours I was arrested again.

The fact was that the scare and the sensible thoughts did not stay in my consciousness with sufficient power to have any effect. They were easily replaced with the delusion that this time would be different. The intention was to have a couple and relax like I used to when alcohol was working for me. That is the obsession - this time will be like the old days. No plans to get arrested.

This is the reason AA suggests the main problem (for the real alcoholic) is in the mind. The complete failure of the kind of defense that prevents one putting ones hand on a hot stove.

The drink thought comes, the insane alcoholic mind has no defense, and gives in. The option of having or making a sane choice is non-existent, and if that had been possibly for me, I would not have needed AA.

2) This was a pretty amazing part of my journey, one I started with the belief that I was too far gone to ever recover., so much so that I never took a note of the date of my last drink. I started the journey equipped with a desperate desire to stop the misery, a willingness to do anything, and a proven ability to stay sober on my own power from when I ran out of money to when I next got some money.

I got busy in the program to the extent that my limited mental ability would allow. I got a sponsor, began the steps, and began earnestly seeking this higher power with which I had no knowledge or experience.

I plodded on day after day until one day I got a surprise call from my sponsor, to let me know I had been sober for three months. This was my sudden realization moment. This might work. I had gone all that time without any serious thought of a drink. It wasn't like I was successfully making decisions not to drink, employing previously unavailable will power, it was the fact that the insane thought never came.

One certainty in life is that we will all be faced with low spots, tragedy, painful events. No one is immune, and I have had my share over the years. Having come through each one I have been amazed to find that instead of turning to my old cure for life, I have naturally reacted and responded to situations much like any non alcoholic.

While drinking may have once been an understandable reaction, I have stayed sober not because I had some super human power to fight off the urge, but simply because the thought never came, therefore no fight or choice was necessary.

Dropsie

Mike's post was thoughtful as always. I hope you dont mind if I follow-up.

I had pretty much the same experience as you, but without any form of formal recovery. However, I have spent a lot of time getting my act together in other ways, and I do believe in the power of the universe.

I would like to someday do the steps, but have not, and yet I feel like sobriety is the new normal. I do occassionally do some magical thinking about drinking, which I know you do not, but will not act on it. Its not a struggle, it just is.

What that means about control I am not sure. I totally relate to the feeling I had at some points that I kind of forgot that I could not drink, or that I drank after swearing off.

But if I am being totally honest with myself, those were choices for ME. So was stopping. Not to say that te universe did not help, but I think it helps with all things.

But this friend of mine I spoke of, she no longer has a choice IMO. She needs a miracle. I actually think that each of us who have the good fortune to stop drinking all have a little miracle. We are the exceptions -- as O would say, we are the Ones.

So I think that like with many things, it all depends .. where were you when you stopped, your sense of self, etc. And maybe also whether you asked the universe for a miracle, or at least got out of its way.

nez

The choice to drink or not drink was always mine and it always will be mine. I have free will.

My choices are based on my thought processes. I learned new and different thought processes by listening to other people. Being exposed to different thought processes gave me a much bigger library to use for research before making my choices. With a much bigger library, I began to make better choices.

The paradox of thought processes is that when I stop trying to control my thought processes, I am no longer controlled by my thought processes. My thought are just thoughts, nothing more.

Were there other forces at play in this scenario about my choices? Ones that are beyond my comprehension. I don't know, however I do think it is vital to my recovery that I continue to try and comprehend the answer to that question. I don't imagine that I will ever know the answer, but I am okay with that. For me, it is about the continued effort to comprehend.

Fusion

Great conversation gals and guys, after my posting questions to Fini. Thank you all for your replies. Food for thought, indeed, for this early sober relapser!

Ken33xx

How do I support the person who relapses?

I don't say anything until they bring up the subject. Sam is a nice man who suddenly disappeared from the meetings. Another member mentioned in several shares about a good friend who went back out. I assumed correctly this was Sam.

One evening meeting Sam eventually showed up. After the meeting I made some small talk with him about his job but nothing about his having gone back out.

Sam has been in and out of the AA rooms for almost 30 years. Before his recent slip he had 3 years. He was proud of his time and I'm sure felt embarrassed when he returned. Sam hasn't mentioned to me he went out and that's fine.

However, I won't listen to excuses either. If someone decides to drink again there can be unpleasant consequences.

You share about the ten years of sobriety you had . Then talk about a second DUI and the 90 days in jail you face along with the loss of your job.

Well,... be thankful there wasn't an accident.

WaterOx

I guess, the way I see it...as someone who has recently relapsed again.... it really comes down to how much help they truly want. Sometimes I think that's what relapse is all about.

Obladi

Hmmmm...
Do you think there is a way that we can tell how much help another person "truly wants?" Can you elaborate what you mean by saying that's what relapse is all about?

Gottalife

My take is that how much help a person wants is directly related to how much help they think they need. That in turn is related to how good a shape their ego is in. I see it all the time, day one sober "I'll do anything" tears and all, day five the ego has rebuilt a bit, not quite so desperate, maybe I don't need as much help as I thought, day ten, ego fully rebuilt, don't need any help, I got this......

One of the frequent flyers at a detox ward was a psychiatrist. He knew more about the human mind than the entire AA group put together. He was always a bit open minded in the first couple of days after the shock of another relapse, but then his ego rebuilt and he would ultimately reject our help in favour of his superior knowledge.
His ego told him he did not need any help.

nez

"He knew more about the human mind than the entire AA group put together. He was always a bit open minded in the first couple of days after the shock of another relapse, but then his ego rebuilt and he would ultimately reject our help in favour of his superior knowledge. His ego told him he did not need any help. "
I hope to remain a beginner. "I don't know" are three of the most important words in the English language.

Stayingsassy

I think it means, is the person willing to do what it takes to get sober, even if it means changing his or her life in dramatic and sometimes uncomfortable ways.

If there are activities, thought patterns, people, and situations that have always led to a drink, is the person willing to change their life in a way that doesn’t allow these things, and thus doesn’t support drinking?

Any reference to drinking sent me turning around and moving in the opposite direction in my first year. People I didn’t see. Places I didn’t go. Thoughts, thought patterns and thought paths I didn’t entertain. Situations I avoided. I turned tail and ran the other way, until I got far enough away from drinking that I didn’t have an inkling of the habit left.

Now when I think about it, the idea of drinking is ludicrous, I’d no more do it then I would sell my kids on the street for money. It’s anathema to me.

Cosima11

I realize I'm getting off on another tangent but isn't that the very nature of the ego? It has to form boundaries before they can dissolve.. I think it's possible to bend without breaking. Learn to sway with the wind rather than knocking down the entire structure.

I guess that's at the core of it for me. Sobriety has been about finding my sense of self, which frankly can't exist without defining it against the collective. Maybe some people were too far in the other direction..

I do understand the concept though. Alcohol brought me to my spiritual awakening, it just wasn't what got or keeps me sober.

Aellyce

This is very relatable for me, in more ways than just addiction recovery, but it was indeed my alcoholism and struggles related to it that eventually opened my eyes big time to how I self-sabotage by not using resources that would be so readily available for me (or misuse them).

What's a bit tricky about it is that the same Ego strength can also serve a very constructive role in life in many ways, in many contexts, and I can definitely be grateful for it for a lot of accomplishments and resilience. So it is not that simple, IMO, that it just has to go in order for someone to recover stably... more that it needs re-structuring and to become less stubborn in areas where it is not sufficient to maintain a healthy and protective function. I see it a bit similarly to obsessive tendencies. Obviously, those can turn very destructive, but the same forces can also create the drive to persevere and go through with positive aspirations. So, IMO, these things are far from being black-and-white.

It also reminds me of what methods may or may not work for an individual and what sort of help can be the most useful for someone. I always like to approach these things from the perspective of building upon strengths that are already present by default in someone, rather than tackling it from the point of view of weaknesses and failures. I personally do not believe that addiction destroys everything that is good about a person... but it shifts focus, priorities, and manifestation of traits very seriously out of balance. For example, the psychiatrist mentioned above, whose confidence in his knowledge prevented him from using help constructively and turned it into arrogance. But I don't think we can say radically that the knowledge itself is useless, more that it is not enough to resolve the issue. I see supporting people who struggle a bit similarly: it can be good, or even necessary, but certainly not sufficient on its own.

WaterOx

Speaking of ego, maybe there is an inherent flaw that lies within the question of “how do we help relapsers”. I don’t think there’s too much any of us can do to shift the great magnitude of someone else’s life.

Be there when you can, offer solace, experience, perspective....if they choose to take it, great, if not, you’ve done all you can.