I don't think I can get on the AA bus
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Originally Posted by shortstop81 
....
To be honest, I don't relate with them all either, because I also was fortunate in that I didn't have extreme external consequences for my drinking. I (God knows how) never had a DUI. I still have custody of my son. I still have a good job. My health is good, etc.
But I can relate a lot when people describe their feelings - of despair, hopelessness, shame, self-loathing. My addiction destroyed me internally - my soul. That's what I relate to when people share their stories.
....
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To be honest, I don't relate with them all either, because I also was fortunate in that I didn't have extreme external consequences for my drinking. I (God knows how) never had a DUI. I still have custody of my son. I still have a good job. My health is good, etc.
But I can relate a lot when people describe their feelings - of despair, hopelessness, shame, self-loathing. My addiction destroyed me internally - my soul. That's what I relate to when people share their stories.
....
.
BB
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Originally Posted by shortstop81
To be honest, I don't relate with them all either, because I also was fortunate in that I didn't have extreme external consequences for my drinking. I (God knows how) never had a DUI. I still have custody of my son. I still have a good job. My health is good, etc.
But I can relate a lot when people describe their feelings - of despair, hopelessness, shame, self-loathing. My addiction destroyed me internally - my soul. That's what I relate to when people share their stories.
But I can relate a lot when people describe their feelings - of despair, hopelessness, shame, self-loathing. My addiction destroyed me internally - my soul. That's what I relate to when people share their stories.
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Originally Posted by shortstop81
But I can relate a lot when people describe their feelings - of despair, hopelessness, shame, self-loathing. My addiction destroyed me internally - my soul. That's what I relate to when people share their stories.
However, I felt this way long before I had a drinking problem. I suppose it's the root of why we drink and then the drinking makes it worse.
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there was quite a bit to couldnt relate to in the bb- mainly the depths people went to. what i did relate to was the thinking and one of the 1st that smacked me upside the head:
"No words can tell of the loneliness and despair I found in that bitter morass of self-pity. Quicksand stretched around me in all directions. I had met my match. I had been overwhelmed. Alcohol was my master."
i cant relate to the alcoholic that had many visits to the psych ward due to alcoholism- ive never been in a psych ward( insert family here saying,"yeah, but ya should have!").
however, when i remove the visits to the psych and look at the thinking- the underlying issues that alcohol was a symptom of- i relate real good.
what bill said before that:
"The curve of my declining moral and bodily health fell off like a ski-jump. After a time I returned to the hospital. This was the finish, the curtain, it seemed to me. My weary and despairing wife was informed that it would all end with heart failure during delirium tremens, or I would develop a wet brain, perhaps within a year. She would soon have to give me over to the undertaker or the asylum."
i didnt relate to that part.
but sure related to alcohol being my master.
"No words can tell of the loneliness and despair I found in that bitter morass of self-pity. Quicksand stretched around me in all directions. I had met my match. I had been overwhelmed. Alcohol was my master."
i cant relate to the alcoholic that had many visits to the psych ward due to alcoholism- ive never been in a psych ward( insert family here saying,"yeah, but ya should have!").
however, when i remove the visits to the psych and look at the thinking- the underlying issues that alcohol was a symptom of- i relate real good.
what bill said before that:
"The curve of my declining moral and bodily health fell off like a ski-jump. After a time I returned to the hospital. This was the finish, the curtain, it seemed to me. My weary and despairing wife was informed that it would all end with heart failure during delirium tremens, or I would develop a wet brain, perhaps within a year. She would soon have to give me over to the undertaker or the asylum."
i didnt relate to that part.
but sure related to alcohol being my master.
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Also there is a tendency to "biblify" the Big Book and treat as one would treat scripture or sacred text, which I do not thing was Bill Wilson's intent at all. Indeed I think he was so concerned about that that the next major follow up in the AA literature, The Twelve and Twelve was published in 1952. At the time the Big Book was published, AA was really dealing with low bottom alcoholics. By 1952, Bill realized it was time to "widen the hoop" deal with people who had not yet lost everything, their health, families, career, and also adapt to more younger people entering the fellowship. The 12 and 12 was a reinterpretation of the 12 steps and 12 traditions in a more and psychological vain than the Big Book....not my words, it's from a step study article. The 12 and 12 really brought sponsorship more into focus, clarified how to "work" the steps, especially the 4th step, and outlined the method of substitution for people who struggled with the higher power concept. My point is the fellowship literature and the fellowship has changed and evolved since it began and since the Big Book was published. The 12 and 12 was published to expand and clarify the steps and traditions and bring about better unity in the fellowship, avoid fundamentalism (still sometimes a problem) and allow a wide berth for interpretation. In 2017 we know even more about alcoholism now than we did in 1952 or 1938. We have to realize that that first paragraph in how it works just doesn't really ring true anymore and should maybe indeed be reinterpreted as meaning "Many who have tried our way have succeeded! Unfortunately, some people who have tried our way and even when they do their best to go all in, have not succeeded in quitting drinking. Honesty is needed with any method you try in when you decide to get sober. You have to honest with yourself first. And then with others. Some people can't. We wish them well."
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In my experience (26 years) you can't stay sober if you can't/won't be honest. You can nit-pick the Big Book and return to drinking. There's lots I disagree with (hey, I'm an agnostic!) so I focus on the parts that I relate to. Amazing that a drunk in Ohio in the mid-1930's describes me to a "T"
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I went to my first AA meeting in April of 1990. I really liked going to meetings and being around other people who understood me. Even people talking about God didn't bother me. I grew up going to church, and even though I had stopped going and had become somewhat of an agnostic by then that part of the program didn't bother me.
But for some reason being honest with myself...looking at the things about myself I needed to change in order to live a reasonably happy life without alcohol was something I was either unable or unwilling to do. So I never took the steps, which IS the program of AA.
My sobriety date is April of 2013...23 years after attending my first AA meeting. 23 years of on and off sobriety, wasted opportunities, pain and suffering, and nearly death towards the end, all because I couldn't (or wouldn't) get on board with taking the steps.
This time I stopped looking for faults in the program, swallowed my pride and became willing to go to any lengths to stay sober. Many people say that AA was the last house on the block for them. It turned out to be the last house on the block for me too, even though it had been the first house on the block 23 years ago.
Looking back honestly I think it wouldn't have mattered which recovery program I had chosen to get/stay sober back in 1990, because deep down I was unwilling to swallow my ego and pride and thought I could fix myself. In hindsight maybe I was one of those unfortunates that were constitutionally incapable (at the time) of being honest with myself. Probably not though, because when the four horsemen started showing up at my doorstep every morning I was finally able to thoroughly follow the path of AA's suggested program.
But for some reason being honest with myself...looking at the things about myself I needed to change in order to live a reasonably happy life without alcohol was something I was either unable or unwilling to do. So I never took the steps, which IS the program of AA.
My sobriety date is April of 2013...23 years after attending my first AA meeting. 23 years of on and off sobriety, wasted opportunities, pain and suffering, and nearly death towards the end, all because I couldn't (or wouldn't) get on board with taking the steps.
This time I stopped looking for faults in the program, swallowed my pride and became willing to go to any lengths to stay sober. Many people say that AA was the last house on the block for them. It turned out to be the last house on the block for me too, even though it had been the first house on the block 23 years ago.
Looking back honestly I think it wouldn't have mattered which recovery program I had chosen to get/stay sober back in 1990, because deep down I was unwilling to swallow my ego and pride and thought I could fix myself. In hindsight maybe I was one of those unfortunates that were constitutionally incapable (at the time) of being honest with myself. Probably not though, because when the four horsemen started showing up at my doorstep every morning I was finally able to thoroughly follow the path of AA's suggested program.
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Originally Posted by shortstop81
In rehab, we used to call them "war stories". I've been with my home group for a while now, so I almost know everyone's war story by heart by now, haha.
As someone mentioned above real identification is not about the drama or the extremity of the story. Some folks get off on that bit the real common thread of alcoholism is much more subtle. To hear someone share about it without ego or drama, with a little humility...is a real blessing and can truly save lives.
Perhaps try another meeting and share your own story leanabeana...with no drama, ego, boasting or fear...tell people what really brought you to the point of going to an AA meeting. You might just save someone's life.
P
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I have a theory that most people don't want to admit or talk about the real things that bring them to that point of humiliation and defeat...the shame of neglecting your kids for a drink, of waking up and feeling utterly subhuman...incapable of doing the most basic things, doing things drunk that go against the very core of who you are and what you believe...whatever they are I think the real bottoms of alcoholism are far more subtle and far more shameful than you hear about in the average drunkalogue. These are the things it helps to be honest about IMO to truly accept alcoholism and get some recovery. Maybe not in a meeting but with another human being who understands.
Hope you're still out there and getting something from all this LB
Hope you're still out there and getting something from all this LB
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Originally Posted by leanabeana
Thanks swlnyc and hellzr. I think part of my issue is that I can't relate to the dramatic drunkalogues. I was a moderate-heavy drinker, so I didn't have any major fallout from drinking. I didn't go to prison or have my kids taken away. I didn't even get a DUI (though I probably could have so I'm lucky).
Not saying I'm special or above it, I just don't feel like part of the "gang" in that sense.
I know the response will probably be that this is not the point, but it's where I'm at right now.
Not saying I'm special or above it, I just don't feel like part of the "gang" in that sense.
I know the response will probably be that this is not the point, but it's where I'm at right now.
Also, for the record, the Serenity Prayer infuriated me for a long time. At the beginning, I refused to say it in meetings. How alcoholic is that?!
You are clearly thoughtful - keep giving yourself room to grow and one thing I can say from my experience is my thinking has changed in every way- and dramatically so- in my 19+ mo progress. I'd wish my totally different way of living- and dedication to "self-correcting" and getting help through my sober support network and, yes, God - on everyone, no matter how they achieve such.
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This is a wonderful thread, full of great insight. I particularly appreciate the person who said that to "biblify" the Big Book was a mistake. Having said all that, I have found that in the past few months throwing myself into AA has had lots of benefits and it's prevented me from drinking or feeling depressed, even though I'm looking for a job at the moment and am worrying about having almost no money sometimes.
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I'm still here paulokes! I'm definitely getting a lot from all of this, thanks so much for your thoughtful responses everyone.
Thanks August25 for the words of encouragement. I know I need to change my thinking, regardless of my perceived similarities or differences with other alcoholics in my meetings. This is the core of what we have in common.
I went to coffee after my AA meeting last night and it was helpful. We didn't delve deep into the 12 steps but some of my questions and concerned were addressed. I get the sense that there are as many ways to work the steps as there are people in the meetings. This is encouraging. Where I live in the SF Bay Area is very progressive, so it makes sense that the AA culture here would be more open to interpretation. I feel like I'm finally getting the importance of fellowship with other alcoholics.
The meetings I go to on the weekdays are in a treatment facility (right by work) so I think the approach is just a little harsher than what I feel comfortable with. A lot of these folks have recently escaped imprisonment or certain death, so the sense of desperation to do whatever it takes is palpable. I can appreciate that.
Thanks August25 for the words of encouragement. I know I need to change my thinking, regardless of my perceived similarities or differences with other alcoholics in my meetings. This is the core of what we have in common.
I went to coffee after my AA meeting last night and it was helpful. We didn't delve deep into the 12 steps but some of my questions and concerned were addressed. I get the sense that there are as many ways to work the steps as there are people in the meetings. This is encouraging. Where I live in the SF Bay Area is very progressive, so it makes sense that the AA culture here would be more open to interpretation. I feel like I'm finally getting the importance of fellowship with other alcoholics.
The meetings I go to on the weekdays are in a treatment facility (right by work) so I think the approach is just a little harsher than what I feel comfortable with. A lot of these folks have recently escaped imprisonment or certain death, so the sense of desperation to do whatever it takes is palpable. I can appreciate that.
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I feel the same about meetings in certain areas. I'm not above doing a meeting in a rough area, I did one yesterday and 99% of it I couldn't relate to, yet there were still a few gems, there are always at least 1-2 things j can take with me.
I think it's valid also to explore other ideas if you think you might not need 12 stepping; I am desperate and quite honestly I need a brainwashing, but not everyone may need that.
I think it's valid also to explore other ideas if you think you might not need 12 stepping; I am desperate and quite honestly I need a brainwashing, but not everyone may need that.
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Originally Posted by leanabeana
I've been to about 10 AA meetings and I'm struggling with a lot of the dogma. Today we read the beginning of Chapter 5 "How It Works".
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program,
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of be ing honest with themselves.There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which
demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."
This really bothers me. It's basically claiming that their program has a 100% success rate for all except the poor souls who are incapable of being honest with themselves. It's not because there is anything wrong with the program because that would be impossible.
This reminds me of my mother telling me I have a debilitating disease because I don't pray hard enough.
How do you reconcile this? I'm not trying to attack, I just really want to understand if I'm misinterpreting or reading too much into this.
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program,
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of be ing honest with themselves.There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which
demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."
This really bothers me. It's basically claiming that their program has a 100% success rate for all except the poor souls who are incapable of being honest with themselves. It's not because there is anything wrong with the program because that would be impossible.
This reminds me of my mother telling me I have a debilitating disease because I don't pray hard enough.
How do you reconcile this? I'm not trying to attack, I just really want to understand if I'm misinterpreting or reading too much into this.
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Originally Posted by leanabeana
I went to coffee after my AA meeting last night and it was helpful. We didn't delve deep into the 12 steps but some of my questions and concerned were addressed. I get the sense that there are as many ways to work the steps as there are people in the meetings. This is encouraging. Where I live in the SF Bay Area is very progressive, so it makes sense that the AA culture here would be more open to interpretation. I feel like I'm finally getting the importance of fellowship with other alcoholics.
The meetings I go to on the weekdays are in a treatment facility (right by work) so I think the approach is just a little harsher than what I feel comfortable with. A lot of these folks have recently escaped imprisonment or certain death, so the sense of desperation to do whatever it takes is palpable. I can appreciate that.
Honesty
open mindedness
Willingness.
yer deisplaying that
theres no one size fits all on how the message or the program wirks for everyone.
personally i needed the message to be blunt and to the point- no sugar coating or beating around the bush. i was a little thick skulled and thats what it took to get the message through.
that doesnt work for everyone, but thats what worked for me.
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Leanabeana, please be aware of your previous experience of groups. Please keep your eyes wide open. I used to be in AA and I wish you to know, that when you join, it's for life. AA tells us if we don't keep attending meetings and passing on the word to new folks, via service or sponsorship (Step 12 of the progrm) then you'll 'go back out and drink'.
Obviously that's not correct (Sober Recovery is chock full of folks who've stopped drinking without AA) but nonetheless, it's the party line. I'm only passing on my experience. I do hope this post isn't censored and deleted.
Obviously that's not correct (Sober Recovery is chock full of folks who've stopped drinking without AA) but nonetheless, it's the party line. I'm only passing on my experience. I do hope this post isn't censored and deleted.
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Originally Posted by Tatsy
Leanabeana, please be aware of your previous experience of groups. Please keep your eyes wide open. I used to be in AA and I wish you to know, that when you join, it's for life. AA tells us if we don't keep attending meetings and passing on the word to new folks, via service or sponsorship (Step 12 of the progrm) then you'll 'go back out and drink'.
Obviously that's not correct (Sober Recovery is chock full of folks who've stopped drinking without AA) but nonetheless, it's the party line. I'm only passing on my experience. I do hope this post isn't censored and deleted.
Obviously that's not correct (Sober Recovery is chock full of folks who've stopped drinking without AA) but nonetheless, it's the party line. I'm only passing on my experience. I do hope this post isn't censored and deleted.
Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:
As far as AA being "for life", is there some cure for alcoholism I'm unaware of? Alcoholism is chronic, meaning if you are an alcoholic now you will be an alcoholic for life. My personal experience has been that every time I stopped treating my alcoholism for long enough I got drunk again.
I have never believed that AA is the only way to get sober and any program that helps an alcoholic stay sober is a good one IMO. But to come into this thread and use "scare tactics" on someone because you have an issue with AA is...well...unfortunate. And I would say the same thing if this were happening in a thread about RR, SMART, or any other program that helps people get sober.
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Leana -
You always ask great questions.
It's good to see you pursue your recovery like you do.
And I am personally happy that you have done so thus far through the AA program, which has worked for me 100% for quite a few years now.
I can reconcile the issue you raised by telling you that my experiences of being in AA for 29 years reflects that the people who earnestly work the program generally stay sober (I can't quantify the percentage, of course) and that there are some mentally challenged people who seem to lack the wherewithal to recover.
So I reconcile the conundrum (so to speak) by affirming its truth.
There is a lot about the Big Book which is simply not obvious to the reader on the first read.
I'm very happy you're working so hard to get and stay sober and that you keep us posted on your efforts.
You always ask great questions.
It's good to see you pursue your recovery like you do.
And I am personally happy that you have done so thus far through the AA program, which has worked for me 100% for quite a few years now.
I can reconcile the issue you raised by telling you that my experiences of being in AA for 29 years reflects that the people who earnestly work the program generally stay sober (I can't quantify the percentage, of course) and that there are some mentally challenged people who seem to lack the wherewithal to recover.
So I reconcile the conundrum (so to speak) by affirming its truth.
There is a lot about the Big Book which is simply not obvious to the reader on the first read.
I'm very happy you're working so hard to get and stay sober and that you keep us posted on your efforts.
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