I don't think I can get on the AA bus
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Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: California
Posts: 534
I don't think I can get on the AA bus
I've been to about 10 AA meetings and I'm struggling with a lot of the dogma. Today we read the beginning of Chapter 5 "How It Works".
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program,
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of be ing honest with themselves.There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which
demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."
This really bothers me. It's basically claiming that their program has a 100% success rate for all except the poor souls who are incapable of being honest with themselves. It's not because there is anything wrong with the program because that would be impossible.
This reminds me of my mother telling me I have a debilitating disease because I don't pray hard enough.
How do you reconcile this? I'm not trying to attack, I just really want to understand if I'm misinterpreting or reading too much into this.
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program,
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of be ing honest with themselves.There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which
demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."
This really bothers me. It's basically claiming that their program has a 100% success rate for all except the poor souls who are incapable of being honest with themselves. It's not because there is anything wrong with the program because that would be impossible.
This reminds me of my mother telling me I have a debilitating disease because I don't pray hard enough.
How do you reconcile this? I'm not trying to attack, I just really want to understand if I'm misinterpreting or reading too much into this.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
lb,
i went to my first AA meeting when i had been sober a while with peer support in a secular support group.
the chair in that meeting gave me ' how it works' to read at the meeting opening.
i was outraged, absolutely outraged, at the exact sentence you highlighted.
the condescension!
the arrogance!
i couldn't possibly........reconcile??
and as i was yacking with my buddies about the horror of all this and how of course i could never......into my mind popped a post i had just written a day or two prior to this, a post where i mentioned my conclusion i had reached, and something i had come to believe deeply: that my chances of ongoing sobriety depended to the greatest degree on my ongoing honesty with myself.
really, we were saying the same thing.
as for the other part you raise, yes, it pretty much implies success if you honestly thoroughly follow the suggested path.
so does AVRT, with, to my opinion, the exact same circular logic. not here to argue the point.
the HOW acronym works well across the board, i figure, no matter which route: honesty, openness, willingness.
i went to my first AA meeting when i had been sober a while with peer support in a secular support group.
the chair in that meeting gave me ' how it works' to read at the meeting opening.
i was outraged, absolutely outraged, at the exact sentence you highlighted.
the condescension!
the arrogance!
i couldn't possibly........reconcile??
and as i was yacking with my buddies about the horror of all this and how of course i could never......into my mind popped a post i had just written a day or two prior to this, a post where i mentioned my conclusion i had reached, and something i had come to believe deeply: that my chances of ongoing sobriety depended to the greatest degree on my ongoing honesty with myself.
really, we were saying the same thing.
as for the other part you raise, yes, it pretty much implies success if you honestly thoroughly follow the suggested path.
so does AVRT, with, to my opinion, the exact same circular logic. not here to argue the point.
the HOW acronym works well across the board, i figure, no matter which route: honesty, openness, willingness.
Life Goes On
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 6,069
I used to fervently wish I was one of those unfortunates.
The way I interpret this sentence is that there really are people who can't be honest . I've been in several relationships where people truly do not seem to have that capacity. It's not their fault - something happened in nature or nurture to cause it.
I think in your case, the corollary would be "some people can't be cured of their diseases through no fault of their own.
(There's no mention of praying in the passage you cite, just unfortunate facts of being human.)
The way I interpret this sentence is that there really are people who can't be honest . I've been in several relationships where people truly do not seem to have that capacity. It's not their fault - something happened in nature or nurture to cause it.
I think in your case, the corollary would be "some people can't be cured of their diseases through no fault of their own.
(There's no mention of praying in the passage you cite, just unfortunate facts of being human.)
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: California
Posts: 534
I plan to stay sober. I'm not sure if I need AA to stick to this plan given the philosophical differences I have with the program. I do want to work on myself spiritually and emotionally, but I think there are other ways to do this.
I struggle with this because it's the most readily available program and it seems to work for people. I just don't think it's for me.
I struggle with this because it's the most readily available program and it seems to work for people. I just don't think it's for me.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by leanabeana 
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of be ing honest with themselves.There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."
This really bothers me.
This really bothers me.
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by dwtbd
Why does it need to be reconciled?
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Slouching toward Bethlehem
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by leanabeana
This really bothers me. It's basically claiming that their program has a 100% success rate for all except the poor souls who are incapable of being honest with themselves. It's not because there is anything wrong with the program because that would be impossible.
quat
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: terra (mostly)firma
Posts: 4,822
JT79
I was not clear, too blunt , I meant that I don't believe it is reconcilable.
Most people in the world and throughout history have never been to their meetings nor read any of their literature.
People quit when they decide to never drink again , regardless of whatever ' program they follow' , you either arrive at/ make the decision or not , 'programs' have little to do with it and/or complicate arriving at it.
I was not clear, too blunt , I meant that I don't believe it is reconcilable.
Most people in the world and throughout history have never been to their meetings nor read any of their literature.
People quit when they decide to never drink again , regardless of whatever ' program they follow' , you either arrive at/ make the decision or not , 'programs' have little to do with it and/or complicate arriving at it.
DOS: 08-16-2012
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Central Iowa
Posts: 365
Originally Posted by leanabeana
I plan to stay sober. I'm not sure if I need AA to stick to this plan given the philosophical differences I have with the program. I do want to work on myself spiritually and emotionally, but I think there are other ways to do this.
I struggle with this because it's the most readily available program and it seems to work for people. I just don't think it's for me.
I struggle with this because it's the most readily available program and it seems to work for people. I just don't think it's for me.
The program is simple but not easy. It's simple because right now you just need to find a temporary sponsor and do all the things they ask of you. That's it, simple. Things like going to regular meetings a few times a week, reading the Big Book and some other things you will find helpful.
Your thinking if flawed and you really need to listen to the advice of others for awhile. If you follow the program and the steps it will all come together and make sense. You have to get past that destructive voice in your head and your ego and you need to let go and listen to those who have been through the process and know it saves lives.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 3,027
I'm doing it despite its faults. Yeah that's a weird statement, especially how it's worded, "unfortunates..." But it's not the kind of thing I hear from the actual people in the meeting. I don't love it. But I can't do it on my own. Can't. Can you? I need help from other alcoholics.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,981
Arguing with sobriety is the path back to hell. This is why the 1st step is the most crucial in admitting we have a problem. We as alcoholics usually have a massive ego when it comes to that, which needs to be eliminated.
Alcohol is nuclear weapon with all arms on deck against us, while we are standing alone, yet somehow seem to think we will win,...
Alcohol is nuclear weapon with all arms on deck against us, while we are standing alone, yet somehow seem to think we will win,...
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,183
I also tripped up on that "unfortunates" phrases, and never really got over it. I mean, it's one person's opinion, perhaps phrased in a way that Bill W. didn't quite mean, but it's been turned into a kind of dogma over the years. It also gave me a nice excuse to keep up serial relapsing, after all I guess I'm one of those unfortunates, might as well just drink. 
To me it wasn't about honesty, that wasn't the key word - it was about being unwilling or unable to give themselves to the program, thus failing. I couldn't do it. Other folks aren't bothered by this section, or interpret it differently, but it did bother me a lot, and it was one of the motivations I had to find something else that worked better for me.
To me it wasn't about honesty, that wasn't the key word - it was about being unwilling or unable to give themselves to the program, thus failing. I couldn't do it. Other folks aren't bothered by this section, or interpret it differently, but it did bother me a lot, and it was one of the motivations I had to find something else that worked better for me.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 425
My personal experience with AA has been less than positive. The groups here tend to be "bitch sessions," and even the folks with multiple years of sobriety are poor examples of what sobriety is (in my opinion). There's a great deal of "13th stepping," again by the long-timers. I'm fortunate to have a great network of friends who have been nothing but supportive, and I'm good with that. I'm learning that it doesn't matter how you stay sober, just that you do. Good thoughts for you.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Essex County New Jersey
Posts: 140
AA can be a life saver or a stumbling block. Do what you need to do to stay sober. If that is swallowing some pride and continuing with AA, cool. If it is Rational Recovery and other methods, great. But keep doing it!
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by leanabeana
I've been to about 10 AA meetings and I'm struggling with a lot of the dogma. Today we read the beginning of Chapter 5 "How It Works".
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program,
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of be ing honest with themselves.There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which
demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."
This really bothers me. It's basically claiming that their program has a 100% success rate for all except the poor souls who are incapable of being honest with themselves. It's not because there is anything wrong with the program because that would be impossible.
This reminds me of my mother telling me I have a debilitating disease because I don't pray hard enough.
How do you reconcile this? I'm not trying to attack, I just really want to understand if I'm misinterpreting or reading too much into this.
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program,
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of be ing honest with themselves.There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which
demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."
This really bothers me. It's basically claiming that their program has a 100% success rate for all except the poor souls who are incapable of being honest with themselves. It's not because there is anything wrong with the program because that would be impossible.
This reminds me of my mother telling me I have a debilitating disease because I don't pray hard enough.
How do you reconcile this? I'm not trying to attack, I just really want to understand if I'm misinterpreting or reading too much into this.
Our findings are shedding light on how AA helps people recover from addiction over time," says Harvard Medical School Associate Professor of Psychiatry John F. Kelly. "The results suggest that social context factors are key; the people who associate with individuals attempting to begin recovery can be crucial to their likelihood of success.”
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/sto...makes-aa-work/
Each AA group is automatous and the vibes vary. What's important is you find a few meetings in which you feel comfortable sharing your concerns. Most people in AA aren't going to get upset if you ask a lot of questions. On the other hand if you do find yourself feeling pressured find another meeting.
Good luck.
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Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
I'd more or less decided I must be one of those 'unfortunates'. But then one day I realised I was just looking for an excuse (as I usually tended to do, and can still find myself doing now if I don't watch myself), and that I was ignoring what came first...'Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program.' I realised that actually, THAT was me. I was so scared of steps 4, 5 and 9 that I was entally refusing to get a sponsor and just do it. My willingness kind of stopped at drinking coffee, listening to others (well, half-listening, because the stuff about the steps didn't really apply to ME, did it!!) and waiting for the Sober-Fairy to come and sprinkle me with recovery dust.
When I got my sponsor she told me that most people think they might be one of the Unfortunates for a while, but that what they meant by that was people who really were delusional or had mental impairment / special needs.
Dunno if any of that's useful in any way, but that was my own experience of it.
Whichever route we take has to involve self-honesty though. Otherwise we continue to believe our own rationalisations (excuses) for drinking and for behaving in ways that make us feel bad. And once we've rationalised it, the next step is doing it.
Whatever you decide - I wish you all the best for your sobriety and recovery.
BB
When I got my sponsor she told me that most people think they might be one of the Unfortunates for a while, but that what they meant by that was people who really were delusional or had mental impairment / special needs.
Dunno if any of that's useful in any way, but that was my own experience of it.
Whichever route we take has to involve self-honesty though. Otherwise we continue to believe our own rationalisations (excuses) for drinking and for behaving in ways that make us feel bad. And once we've rationalised it, the next step is doing it.
Whatever you decide - I wish you all the best for your sobriety and recovery.
BB
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Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: CA
Posts: 1,060
You're reading into it too much. The book was written when only 75-100 people had gotten sober. They (Bill W.) took from the small sample size characteristics that he thought were successful and unsuccessful. If you haven't done the 12 steps with a sponsor, I would suggest trying them before judging a program that has been successful for so many.
As far as the dogma, you'll find fundamentalist and practical AA goers. The steps are to help an alcoholic have a psychic change. Our disease isn't physical it becomes that through addiction but to remain sober we need spirituality. That's where the honesty comes in. We (alcoholics) have a great imagination of events that didn't happen. We have resentments for no reason at all. We hold grudges for no reason. We are victims of our own imagination. etc etc etc
If AA isn't for you, then I pray you find a program that is. I also hope that if the next program isn't going to work for whatever reason, you don't try to create controversy by picking a portion of it apart without giving it an honest effort.
Good luck
As far as the dogma, you'll find fundamentalist and practical AA goers. The steps are to help an alcoholic have a psychic change. Our disease isn't physical it becomes that through addiction but to remain sober we need spirituality. That's where the honesty comes in. We (alcoholics) have a great imagination of events that didn't happen. We have resentments for no reason at all. We hold grudges for no reason. We are victims of our own imagination. etc etc etc
If AA isn't for you, then I pray you find a program that is. I also hope that if the next program isn't going to work for whatever reason, you don't try to create controversy by picking a portion of it apart without giving it an honest effort.
Good luck
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Atlanta
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Originally Posted by JT79
Because there are other programs that also work. And for some people, those programs are a better fit. A person isn't an 'unfortunate' just because they don't follow the AA path.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,775
Originally Posted by leanabeana
I plan to stay sober. I'm not sure if I need AA to stick to this plan given the philosophical differences I have with the program. I do want to work on myself spiritually and emotionally, but I think there are other ways to do this.
I struggle with this because it's the most readily available program and it seems to work for people. I just don't think it's for me.
I struggle with this because it's the most readily available program and it seems to work for people. I just don't think it's for me.
When I got sober in 1993 there wasn't the internet, I had no insurance and no money for a rehab center.
AA was the only game in town.
I didn't have to pay any dues and although there was often a pecking order in the meetings based on length of sobriety no one was really in charge.
I didn't find it difficult to attend meetings and meet members who helped introduce the program to me in a way I could related. In the end I found a lot more similarities than differences in AA.
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