paulokes

The heart of denial is self deception...dishonesty with myself.

I cannot drink successfully. Everything in my experience tells me that. Staying abstinent is the most important thing in my life.

The only way I can ever see myself taking a drink again is if I allow myself to be dishonest with myself and forget that fact.

Never mind AA...I think anyone who continually falls back into a chronic addiction is showing an inability to be and remain honest with themselves. Sometimes it's emotional dishonesty. ...denying my feelings, making up a story about the world instead of admitting the truth...sometimes it's plain old dishonesty...I deserve a drink, can get away with a drink or a drink is the only sane answer to my problems.

That's how I reconcile it

P

JT79

Ahh, OK. I misunderstood what you were saying, but agree with the sentiment in this post 100%. There are many ways to get addictions under control, and all that really matters is if a person is happy with the one they are following and the results they are getting.

JT79

This 'rock bottom' idea is such a dangerous attitude in my opinion. What if a person's rock bottom is death, or killing someone else? I was listening to an interview of a recovery therapist the other day, and he was explaining why he thinks this belief can be so harmful. He was was mostly working with extreme cases at the time - prostitutes and IV drug users living on the streets. In their cases, to write them off as people that hadn't hit rock bottom yet was to say that they needed to get physical beaten harder, to get raped even more, to finally contract HIV or hepatitis.

This is pretty much exactly the attitude that people are complaining about (and that some AA people in this thread are trying to say isn't the right interpretation). For some people, following the program isn't the answer, and it isn't going to all come together. For some people, the right decision is to find something else and to not be told that they are just deceiving themselves by looking elsewhere.

hellrzr

JT79, how long have you been sober? What program of recovery are you finding useful?

I hate the term rock bottom and that's not what I was saying, Enough suffering just means you finally get to the point you are willing to do anything to feel better. Often that is not anywhere near a rock bottom, which to me is death. You don't get anymore bottom than 6' under! I was far from any rock bottom before I got miserable enough to really want to stop. I had a house, a job, a family and most people have those things when they sober up.

I also never said that anyone looking outside of AA is deceiving themselves. I said very clearly that people find different ways to stay sober and happy. If you understood alcoholism you would understand that it is all your thinking and not about drinking. Drinking is a symptom and one thing we do to be able to get through the day. If you just take that away you will be miserable or find something else to take it's place that will also more than likely be harmful. To me it takes a flawed thought process to do something that you really don't want to do but yet continue day in and day out because of the compulsion you have in your mind.

Have you worked the program of AA or worked the steps with a sponsor? I've never done AVART or those other programs so I am not qualified to speak about them. I have worked the program of AA and 5 years of happy sobriety shows me it works so I share that message trying to help others. Also, my sponsor has 8 years and my grand sponsor has over 30 years so I very clearly see it as a long term solution.

JeffreyAK

That's an opinion, common in AA circles, but it is not factual reality. Alcohol addiction is a primary medical disorder, it is not symptomatic of anything else, and all treatments revolve around the same concept: Stop drinking.

Pathwaytofree

That is one of the sanest, most intelligent things I've read.

Pathwaytofree

My drunkalog is pretty boring and undramatic, except where I made an utter fool of myself when drunk. Most of my drinking was either at home, or I stayed over at a friend's house, or someone else drove me home so I didn't drink and drive. This made me feel so uncomfortable for many years. I felt like I didn't belong. However, I knew that I was a real alcoholic, even if my drunkalog looked different. I'm told that my story helps a lot of people. Alcoholism isn't about having your kids taken away or the number of DUIs you get. That shows the unmanageability and obsession, yes. But it may have shown itself differently in other people's lives.

I know someone else in AA who binged drank on weekends and took cabs or had guys from the bar drive her so she didn't have that kind of thing either.

Another woman I know didn't start drinking until late in life when she was an empty nester, drank only at home, but could not control the amount she drank no matter what. She'd go to work hungover but she didn't lose her job. She was a high functioning alcoholic.

Our stories aren't necessarily "drunkalogs". Our stories are to show the mental obsession of the mind, cravings beyond our control, and how we drank even though we didn't want to and our life depended on it. A healthy story mostly includes strength and hope, and doesn't just talk about the drunkalog. My sponsor says "that's all "ego" if you're up there talking only about the drama and not about the solution."

Pathwaytofree

That is your opinion and experience.

Many of us have had different experiences.

AA does not revolve around just stop drinking. Many of us got worse when we just stopped drinking.

AA nor any program has a monopoly on recovery. It's all about finding the program that works for you.

shortstop81

Yes, but in order to sustain sobriety an addict HAS to learn how to change their thinking and behaviour, whether it's through AA, AVRT, cognitive behavioural therapy, etc.

Pathwaytofree

Exactly.

JeffreyAK

No, it's what professionals including the AMA call it. There are many, many references out there supporting the statement that alcoholism is a primary chronic medical condition, a disease if you like (I don't like the word myself). People get over this in many ways, including thinking it's a kind of spiritual malady, but it all must revolve around stopping drinking - if you don't do that, you are still an addict, so quitting is the key thing that you must do no matter what else you do.

Yes, I agree.

hellrzr

This thread is going to get way off track but alcohol addiction is physically being addicted to alcohol. I was before I quit. I would actually get sick when I didn't drink. I'd get the shakes, vomit, other flu like symptoms. After some days of not drinking those symptoms go away. Today I am not addicted to alcohol but I am an alcoholic and I always will be. Like there are many people who are alcoholics but were never physically addicted to alcohol.

As far as drinking being a symptom of Alcoholism, everything I've seen and read says it certainly is. If you are an alcoholic and just stop drinking you will be miserable or replace the drink with some other behavior. I've seen it over and over for years now. You can tell when an alcoholic just stops drinking or if they are actually following a program of recovery. For a year I went to AA and tried stopping but didn't do anything else and I was miserable. Only after I actually took some action and worked the steps did I find a solution.

Obladi

Going back to Leanabeana...

My head is spinning a little from you changing tracks to "not liking endless drunkalogs," which wasn't your original question. I get that you may have a number of objections, but to this last point, the majority of meetings I've attended have not been centered around drunkalogs.

There are literature and beginner and meditation, step and big book meetings (probably more), and I don't believe I've ever heard a drunkalog at any of these. The only time I might hear something along those lines is at an anniversary where the tradition in my area is for the celebrant to tell their entire story. Granted, the chairs are pretty much all amateur speakers, so some folks might go into all of that but it's not the norm around here.

Have you gone to the same meeting on 10 occasions or 10 separate meetings in different locations? If it's the former, branching out might give you a broader perspective.

Just a thought
O

Dee74

I think we're best served by sticking to the topic at hand.

Personal experience is welcome.
Respect for all manner of beliefs is mandatory.

Other wider discussions are probably best left to PMs or other threads.

Dee
Moderator
SR

Ken33xx

I do want to understand why I'm feeling this way and push past it or make a decision to abandon AA and be OK with that.

I don't think anyone can tell you how/why you feel this way. That's on you.

What I can suggest is members often attend meetings in which they agree with the vibe/attitudes. When I was new I asked if AA wasn't religious why then did the meetings end with the Lords Prayer. Not that I had anything against the Lords Prayer being that I was raised Catholic I just wondered why? I also mentioned that the 4th and 5th steps appeared to have been lifted directly from the church confession I attended in my youth.

This were just questions I had but not everyone in AA likes questions.
What they want is for you to get a sponsor right away and do what you are told. In other words the sooner you stop asking questions and get with the program the better.

However, I never saw this as a reason to leave AA. There were many individuals in the rooms that I could relate with and who helped learn the AA program without the hard sell.

Gottalife

I haven't got my big book with me at the moment but I recall something in the doctors opinion that might be related to to the original issue, the unfortunates. Someone with a book might check this but I think Silkworth, when discussing different types of alcoholic referred to the psychopathic type about which a whole chapter could be written. I am pretty sure there is such things as psychopaths, I would not call them fortunate, and I would guess they might have some trouble following the AA program. I am not sure if you could say a psychopath is at fault for being what they are.

leanabeana

I don't dislike drunkologues, I just can't relate to them. I'm sorry if the term is disrespectful.

Stayingsassy

I've been to two meetings this weekend. Only one drunkalogue! It was mine, tonight! Haha. I was kind of embarrassed but I felt comfortable in the meeting I attended tonight, super relaxed vibe.

If you decide to stick with aa, maybe shop around! Don't stick to just one? I plan to go to a ton of them during my 90 in 90.

I'm just getting sober (again), but I do have the gift of perspective. I've tried literally everything else for ten years and nothing has worked. I'm now doing the steps for the first time. I disliked aa. But now? I need results. I honestly don't care how I get them. Tell me to run singing through a field and bathe donkeys for 90 days: does it get me sober? Done.

I remember being a "moderate to heavy" drinker. Five, six years ago, maybe? I hope whatever you choose works for you now and you don't find yourself drinking like Me. Btw: I have no dui's and no life losses, either...I can even do pull-ups, deadlifts and sprints at the gym. But I do have a hell of an alcohol addiction and the way I drink would blow your mind. No dui means very little, just means you dodged one bullet so far.

Ken33xx

Today there are a number of alternatives to AA. If the OP isn't comfortable with AA perhaps try another program. Of course there are plenty of people who successfully quit on their own too. However, that wasn't me. I needed help and found AA a good fit.

Best of luck.

shortstop81

In rehab, we used to call them "war stories". I've been with my home group for a while now, so I almost know everyone's war story by heart by now, haha.

To be honest, I don't relate with them all either, because I also was fortunate in that I didn't have extreme external consequences for my drinking. I (God knows how) never had a DUI. I still have custody of my son. I still have a good job. My health is good, etc.

But I can relate a lot when people describe their feelings - of despair, hopelessness, shame, self-loathing. My addiction destroyed me internally - my soul. That's what I relate to when people share their stories.

Sorry, I hope I'm not trying to sound like I'm selling AA to you. Especially since it sounds like you also have found other forms of support. I just wanted to share my experience, because I can relate to a lot of your misgivings.