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I don't think I can get on the AA bus

Old 09-30-2017, 01:47 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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I went to AA for years. Back in the mid 90's, i went to an all men's group who were extremists in how they applied the steps in their lives.

Everything was black and white. With these guys, you're either willing to do what they say, or you're doomed to repeat the past. That's how they understood ...

"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program,
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of be ing honest with themselves.There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which
demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."

To me, that was fu#ked. That passage can mean 10 different things.

This is where I think people start to stumble. They take those words in their literal meaning and run with them. Then for whatever reason when the new person reaches an inpasse, such as the 4th, the 5th and 9th step they decide they simply cannot go any further..Then they give up, drink and they go back to step 1.

I had a terrible time with 4 and 5. I honestly had no want or need to unburden my soul to someone who was just my sponsor.

So does this mean you are constitutionally incapable of success at AA? They thought so.

Well, that's just one group...

Fast forward 25 years and I've gone to 1 AA meeting since I got out of IOP. I've stayed sober longer than i ever have in my life. However, i do attend therapy. And tomorrow i will have 19 months.

So do i believe there is another way? Hell yes.

For me, therapy is FAR more beneficial than AA ever was. I believed in the fellowship and the working with another struggling soul, but in a lot of ways-even those with 25 years or more, it was still the diseased blind leading the diseased blind. I think the sickness itself, or at least mine can be most helped by a professional.

I think you can still benefit from AA if you can seperate yourself from it's literal interpretation. Just take what you need and leave the rest.

It only has to be as complicated as you allow it to be.

Good luck, and hang in there.
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:39 AM
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When I was new there was one member who made it a point of saying I'd end up in the gutter if I didn't follow lock step with what he said

I got the feeling he was more upset with me not wanting him as a sponsor than anything else

Looking back he might have been sober but he was still damaged.

Before getting sober he attempted suicide, had two failed marriages and changed his family name because he hated them.

An angry man who could have benefited from professional help.
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by leanabeana View Post
I plan to stay sober. I'm not sure if I need AA to stick to this plan given the philosophical differences I have with the program. I do want to work on myself spiritually and emotionally, but I think there are other ways to do this.

I struggle with this because it's the most readily available program and it seems to work for people. I just don't think it's for me.
Couple things....10 meetings really isn't a lot to understand AA. Have you talked to others? Perhaps get a sponsor? There is so much to learn- straight up facts and suggestions - note "suggestions," as that is what AA is, suggestions made by people who have followed a simple laid out program for living sober.

It's a total change of thinking and way of life.

My dad used to tell me I could try to think my way out of my problem- he hadn't seen that work for anyone - maybe there were some, he'd say, but he'd seen a lot that AA did work for.

Our alcoholic minds can reason up a whole lot of things to counter and denounce recovery- in any progam.

You said "I plan to stay sober." OK, how? That's the key- IMO and IME and from what I see of those who successfully stay sober- action and a real PROGRAM of living not just "dry" but in recovery.

Just my $0.02+
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Old 09-30-2017, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by hellrzr View Post
You are clearly looking for differences between you and those in AA who work the program. This is your head telling you that this won't work so why bother. Your mind is simply talking out out of taking the steps and following the program. I think most people go through this until they suffer enough that they finally give in and follow the program.
I disagree. There are many paths to the same endpoint. You have to give in and decide your life is better without drinking or that you will never drink again. There is AVRT, which I have used and SMART, as mentioned above.

But you don't have to give in and follow the program or feel that is the only way.
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Old 09-30-2017, 03:44 AM
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Lots of options to get and stay sober these days. I consider daily visits to SR to be one of the best! We need to support one another, regardless of the methods we choose.
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Old 09-30-2017, 04:47 AM
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Shoot. I think I wasn't clear on my earlier post.

The way I read this passage may well be incorrect, but here's the way I reconcile it: Bill was saying, "Our way works! Unfortunately, some people try our way and even when they do their best to go all in, they keep drinking. From what we've seen, those folks can't do it (our way) because they simply can't get honest with themselves. And it's not their fault because we know they really really tried.

I am more than a little ignorant about AA history, but it seems that even then (most) people would think "but if you do succeed some other way, bully on you!" I know a little more about human character and some people in the program certainly became puffed up with their own success and
started putting their own gruff and righteous spin on things. Personally, I haven't seen much (or any) of that in real life though I've heard of it - and sometimes read it here.

Anyhow, I don't think that passage means You Suck if You Can't Do It Our Way. I think it means if you Go All In, the only way we've seen it fail is with people who can't get honest with themselves. End of sentence. Leaves lots of room for doing it other ways, in my opinion.

O
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Old 09-30-2017, 05:20 AM
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I'm an AAer.

Yes, I've struggled with some AA philosophies, especially the one you quoted. My criticisms of AA have kept me away from the program at times.

I can only speak for myself, but in my experience I used my misgivings as an excuse to go back out and drink. When I get back on board with the program, I stay sober.

I spent years trying to find the "fix" for my alcoholism, to find the program/method that would "work" for me. I went to rehab, I had addiction counselling, therapy, blahblahblah.

But I was looking for an external fix that would do all the work for me. What I really need to stay sober is the right attitude and mindset, and I find that AA greatly encourages that in me.

In today's day and age, there are thankfully many programs and methods to assist us in sobriety. Explore them and see what feels right for you, but be mindful of your motivations for writing any of them off. It could be your addiction looking for an "out".
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Old 09-30-2017, 05:31 AM
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I think I took it literally when I was new to AA. What it meant to me was that I needed to be rigorously honest in the way I lived my life, and with myself, and that I needed to completely give myself to the simple program if I wanted to recover.

I was out of options. I was in what a professor of psychiatry and expert in alcohol addiction described as a small group at the most severe end of the alcohol use disorder spectrum for who some kind of conversion experience was the only hope. And he said AA were the experts in that.

Maybe that was the first practical application of self honesty, recognising the true nature of my situation, swallowing my pride, and giving myself to the program.

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path is a true statement in my experience. On the other hand, possibly because alcoholics of my type are constantly told they have other options, a cynic might write - rarely do we see a person thoroughly follow our path. Why would they if they think they can get away with less.

Nearly every I tried AA and failed post, actually means the writer went to a few meetings and wasn't feeling any benefit. Meetings are not the program, and do not treat alcoholism. Unfortunately they are often mislead into believing that don't drink and go to meetings is the program, and keep coming back. Take what you like and leave the rest? Five and nine were the most beneficial steps to me, and they were the steps I would have left if I had held any reservations. Half measure availed us nothing was also true for me.

I know at the time I was too stupefied to argue or challenge anything. I just gave myself completely to this simple program. Stupid of me? Bad judgement? Who knows? But I did recover.
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Old 09-30-2017, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Gottalife View Post
I know at the time I was too stupefied to argue or challenge anything. I just gave myself completely to this simple program. Stupid of me? Bad judgement? Who knows? But I did recover.
And there it is, the crux of the matter.

However we do it - THAT is the end goal. Period.
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:27 AM
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It can be a tough thing. I found it hard to relate with 90% of what is in the Big Book, though in my case it was a real case of denial--and waiting for the progression to happen.
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by leanabeana View Post
I've been to about 10 AA meetings and I'm struggling with a lot of the dogma. Today we read the beginning of Chapter 5 "How It Works".
Hi Leanabeana,

That's great you're taking action in your recovery.
"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program,
usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of be ing honest with themselves.There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which
demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average."
I chuckled at myself reading this (at me, not at your) because it brings back a ton of memories in the beginning of my 12 step journey when I hated the big book so much. There were times I'd feel so angry at what it said, that I'd storm out of the room.

This really bothers me. It's basically claiming that their program has a 100% success rate for all except the poor souls who are incapable of being honest with themselves. It's not because there is anything wrong with the program because that would be impossible.
That's not exactly what it's saying. They're not speaking from a place of ego like "this is the greatest program in the world and if it doesn't work it's your fault." I think they're referring to those who suffer from extreme types of psychological illness. The ones who are in mental institutions.

This reminds me of my mother telling me I have a debilitating disease because I don't pray hard enough.
Oh how I wish I could save you from all the wasted years (decades) I lost because I kept replaying old tapes from the past. I kept reading the big book with my emotions instead of just putting that all to side and doing what it said. I was so angry early on. I read into everything the big book said. I hated how outdated it seemed.

You do not have a debilitating disease because you don't pray hard enough. I'm sure the healthy part of you knows this. You have a debilitating disease because you are an alcoholic. Alcoholism is a spiritual malady that centers in the mind and also has a physical allergy. Stay factual. Your mother does not speak truth. Many people do not speak truth. Put your pride to the side and stop letting what other people say or do get under your skin. And that includes the words of the big book. I say that with an enormous amount of love, understanding, and unfortunately experience.....

How do you reconcile this? I'm not trying to attack, I just really want to understand if I'm misinterpreting or reading too much into this.
I read into way too much in the big book. How did I reconcile it? I finally stopped reading it with my emotions. I stopped being bothered by it. I stopped taking it apart and finding fault with it or wanting to rewrite it. I stopped saying that what it said was wrong. I stopped critiquing and analyzing what the book said. I stop nit-picking it. I saw that I did that as excuses to not want to follow AA's program.

I just stopped.

I closed my eyes, took a deep breath, stopped talking, stopped thinking, stopped analyzing. I just jumped in and followed the simple clear suggested instructions of the steps I was given.

I started to hear the book differently. It was a slow change, but it's a beautiful thing to look back on. With each time I hear a certain chapter being read, I still hear it with a different set of ears. I get something new out of it each time, or it reminds me of past ah-ha moments. And each week when I share at my home group, I get to pass on that gift.

A number of years ago, I remember an older woman sharing in my home group. I watched her turn the pages of the big book as she was sharing with such gentle care. I thought "what a nut!" What I was seeing was actually gratitude from someone who had gotten to the other side.

The big book changed my life. But I fought it for a very long time. Maybe this is just your journey.

I sincerely hope that helps. :-)
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Shitzupuppy View Post
I disagree. There are many paths to the same endpoint. You have to give in and decide your life is better without drinking or that you will never drink again. There is AVRT, which I have used and SMART, as mentioned above.

But you don't have to give in and follow the program or feel that is the only way.
I used to wake up sick every morning and every morning I told myself how much better my life would be if I just stopped drinking and decided every morning that I was done drinking. By the afternoon that desire had worn off and about the time work was done I was ready to drink again because I needed to forget all those things that were keeping me up at night. It didn't matter how much I told myself differently, I kept living like that until I decided to give in and follow the program of AA and do all the tasks my sponsor asked of me. Only then was I able to deal with those things and sleep again at night.

I may have very well had success with other programs but the point is that I DID have to give in and follow a program and dedicate my life to it for it to work. It didn't matter how often I said I wanted to stop or how much better I knew my life would be without drinking, I had to take action and get help and for me that started by walking into an AA meeting.

If someone has success other than AA that is great but they still have to give into that program and go all in and dedicate themselves to following it or it won't work. I wasn't saying AA is the only way but it is a great way and has worked for millions of people and has a massive network of help for those who seek it.
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:44 AM
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It's hard to discuss this without it turning into a debate about recovery methods, which is against forum rules.

AA was not available where I lived two years ago (I am on day 630 or something like that). I have stayed sober largely by visiting this board almost every day and by reading everything I can find about the science of addiction. As an atheist and a scientist type, this is what works for me.

Just be honest with yourself, yes? Are you looking for ways to devalue AA so you can say you tried, thus setting yourself up for a relapse? Or is it truly not for you, which is fine?

Wishing you success.
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:23 AM
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Hi everyone. Thanks for all the great responses. I don't want to break the rules by turning this into a debate. I do want to understand why I'm feeling this way and push past it or make a decision to abandon AA and be OK with that. I don't believe that normal doubts and critical thinking is the enemy of sobriety or just my AV talking. This is just the way I am and I think it's helped me avoid a lot of grief in my life (including almost being recruited into a cult). I'm not saying AA is a cult by any means, but I'm saying my critical thinking has helped me in the past.

I also attend LifeRing and Refuge Recovery. I still consider myself to be in the exploratory phase. I know myself and realize if I jump headfirst into AA without making sure it is right for me, someone or something will **** me off and I'll decide my recovery isn't that important. I feel resolved to stay sober, regardless of what I decide. This forum helps a lot.

When I mentioned my mom and her attitude about my disease, I actually wasn't talking about alcoholism, but the same would apply if she were still alive to see me get sober. I was referring to bipolar disorder. I could be classified as one of those "unfortunates" because I am mentally ill and I have been institutionalized. My mother was very religious and thought everything could be solved with prayer and if prayer doesn't work, it must be your fault because "prayer always works". This is what is triggered when I read "How It Works".

I plan to go to my AA women's meeting tomorrow. I usually don't stay for coffee at the nearby cafe after but this time I will. I will ask questions and try to get some more understanding of what this program is all about and what their experiences have been. I've been to this meeting four times now and I think I've been reluctant to stay after because I don't want to be approached about sponsorship. I'm willing to brave it tomorrow to get some insight to some wise women in recovery.

Thanks again for all your insights and suggestions. I really appreciate the diversity of opinions and experience here.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by leanabeana View Post
Hi everyone. Thanks for all the great responses. I don't want to break the rules by turning this into a debate. I do want to understand why I'm feeling this way and push past it or make a decision to abandon AA and be OK with that. I don't believe that normal doubts and critical thinking is the enemy of sobriety or just my AV talking. This is just the way I am and I think it's helped me avoid a lot of grief in my life (including almost being recruited into a cult). I'm not saying AA is a cult by any means, but I'm saying my critical thinking has helped me in the past.

I also attend LifeRing and Refuge Recovery. I still consider myself to be in the exploratory phase. I know myself and realize if I jump headfirst into AA without making sure it is right for me, someone or something will **** me off and I'll decide my recovery isn't that important. I feel resolved to stay sober, regardless of what I decide. This forum helps a lot.

When I mentioned my mom and her attitude about my disease, I actually wasn't talking about alcoholism, but the same would apply if she were still alive to see me get sober. I was referring to bipolar disorder. I could be classified as one of those "unfortunates" because I am mentally ill and I have been institutionalized. My mother was very religious and thought everything could be solved with prayer and if prayer doesn't work, it must be your fault because "prayer always works". This is what is triggered when I read "How It Works".

I plan to go to my AA women's meeting tomorrow. I usually don't stay for coffee at the nearby cafe after but this time I will. I will ask questions and try to get some more understanding of what this program is all about and what their experiences have been. I've been to this meeting four times now and I think I've been reluctant to stay after because I don't want to be approached about sponsorship. I'm willing to brave it tomorrow to get some insight to some wise women in recovery.

Thanks again for all your insights and suggestions. I really appreciate the diversity of opinions and experience here.
Many thanks for your thoughtful posts on this. I am still trying to figure out a way forward.....it is really helpful to hear about others' experiences. I wish you well on your own journey.
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:13 PM
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I see what you mean, it bothered me when I when I first walked in, and still bothers me today....however once I apply the principle of "take what you like and leave the rest" plus consider when this was written, I understand it better and why it's really not the gospel truth. Some points to consider:
At the time this was written, it was a small group, 70-100 maybe recovering alcoholics, the program was in its infancy, and there were really no other alternatives except mental institutions, which just confined people, they did not really treat the problem. Therapy was really limited ( there was no Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy and Cognitive Behavior Therapy developed by Dr Albert Ellis, no contingency management, no motivational enchancement therapy) medication options were practically zero ( no naltrexone, campral, antabuse, no non-narcotic therapies for depression, anxiety, sleep disorders) and no secular recovery alternatives (SMART Recovery, SOS, Women in Sobriety, Lifering, Refuge Recovery). These are available now. AA has a lot of good things to share and enhance the recovery experience. A few sentences in it's preamble can really skew ones view of it...I have found that approaching my recovery with an eclectic set of tools is more efficient and works for me. I like AA because there are a lot of meetings in my area and a lot of good ones that are not so dogmatic and judgy, the Big Book has a lot of wisdom that still works in this day and age, and it has helped me. BUT.... it is not my sole tool. I also attend SMART, which gives me practical, rational tools and exercises to handle cravings, triggers, and everyday problems that I used to try and solve by downing a 12 pack of beer. I go to group and individual therapy in the REBT and CBT approach, I attend a group meditation workshop once a week to quiet my extremely busy mind, I am on some medication prescribed by an addiction specialist to help me cope with anxiety and depression. I still take antabuse (my choice). I read books by many authors from many spiritual and philosophical paths. I do not claim to know who is right and who knows the absolute truth. Find what works for you. Any group that claims they have a no failure rate is lying. This is addiction. I have relapsed four times before I put together some time. It starts with admitting you have a problem and then becoming willing to address that problem and asking for help. Good luck in finding the path the works for you. Whatever it is, it's better than drinking. Man was I miserable then.[/LIST]
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:14 PM
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"I don't believe that normal doubts and critical thinking is the enemy of sobriety or just my AV talking. This is just the way I am and I think it's helped me avoid a lot of grief in my life (including almost being recruited into a cult). I'm not saying AA is a cult by any means, but I'm saying my critical thinking has helped me in the past."

I'm also on the list of being a critical thinker. I also almost critically thought my way out of AA! Our egos have a lot to do with this disease. I don't want to debate but most people in AA are very intelligent people. Seems the more intelligent and thoughtful you are the tougher time you have. Your disease just loves finding a way to show you are different than everyone else or how you are unique and it won't work for you. These are amongst the countless things I learned from a great sponsor and grand sponsor. From my experience those who really succeed and are happy in AA are those who are able to let go of their ego and see that a good sponsor is a gift and someone whom they need to listen too.

I think you have great plan to look more into AA and ask questions. I've always learned the most before and after meetings. The meetings are a very small part of the program. Good luck no matter what road you go down!
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:29 PM
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Thanks swlnyc and hellzr. I think part of my issue is that I can't relate to the dramatic drunkalogues. I was a moderate-heavy drinker, so I didn't have any major fallout from drinking. I didn't go to prison or have my kids taken away. I didn't even get a DUI (though I probably could have so I'm lucky).

Not saying I'm special or above it, I just don't feel like part of the "gang" in that sense.

I know the response will probably be that this is not the point, but it's where I'm at right now.
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:54 PM
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I completely get that. A major part of the program is one alcoholic relating to another. I also had no legal or major problems caused from drinking. I drank at home while working around the house and out in my garage. I didn't relate at all to those who had 4 OWIs or were arrested in bar fights. But I did talk to a couple of other guys who also drank in their garage and missed family events and work and drank and drove to get more beer right before the store closes because Lord forbid you run out of beer before you drank what you needed to that day! They told me how their lives just slowly got worse and worse and that made me see I was on the same path. So I started talking to those guys and asking them for advice and eventually followed that advice.

Another good thing I used to hear and keep in mind was all those things that others shared are more than likely things that just hadn't happened to me..... yet. I found that to be true when one of the other garage drinker guys went back to drinking and then got an OWI on the way to get more beer. Once he returned to AA he said that now an OWI was something else he would have in common with others in the rooms.

One more tidbit you may not like hearing but your mind telling you that you don't relate is just another way this disease works. You really do need to try to find similarities in the stories and not differences. : )
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by leanabeana View Post
Thanks swlnyc and hellzr. I think part of my issue is that I can't relate to the dramatic drunkalogues. I was a moderate-heavy drinker, so I didn't have any major fallout from drinking. I didn't go to prison or have my kids taken away. I didn't even get a DUI (though I probably could have so I'm lucky).

Not saying I'm special or above it, I just don't feel like part of the "gang" in that sense.

I know the response will probably be that this is not the point, but it's where I'm at right now.
You're smarter than most if you decided to get off the elevator before it resulted in such devastating loss. In that sense i'm not sure why you'd want to be a part of "the gang" (i say that with mild levity and sarcasm.
It says in AA very clearly "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking"

you have certainly earned your seat any way any one chooses to look at it and maybe in the most important sense of the word. So perhaps you are more a part of the gang than you think.
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