esinger

First time I heard this in a meeting I sort of got sick to my stomach. Was one of the first of several hypocrisies I came across in the step literatures. I do tend to over analyze the crap out of everything. If AA makes you happy good for you. I'll find my own reality. I do get quite angry when it is adamantly sold as the one and only true path to sobriety.

awuh1

Well this thread seems to have turned into something of a I-don't-like-AA fest, rather than a discussion of whether AA is or is not a cult. I understand that it's a bit difficult make the case that it's a cult, but do the detractors really need to resort to tactics like unsubstantiated claims (a 5% success rate), characterizations, ("a treatment out of the dark ages") and pointing a finger at the errant behavior some individual AA member's?

As for the 12 and 12 quote, notice how it how begins. "Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability...." It does not say AA is the only way. It's pointing to the people in AA. It's saying that if you are going to choose AA, then do the program of AA, and do to the very best of your ability. The quote is being talked about in this thread like its pointing (or comparing itself) to some other method and saying that AA is the only way. That's not true. It's speaking about AA members.

Also notice that even within the quote, (Bill at his most dramatic) he refers to the 12 steps as "suggested". Seems to me that's anything but cultish.

esinger

I would go. You might learn something, good or bad, like it or not. You don't have to say a word if you don't want to. You won't get thrown out. As far as being talked down to, well, could happen if you mention it and there is no need. Like everywhere there's some good people and some real annoying a-holes. When your new they'll tell you anything can be your higher power. The guys in my 1st step meeting suggested the light socket so what's wrong with your conscious brain? If nothing else you might get some lousy coffee and some snacks.

JeffreyAK

Yup. Our way or die kills people, it really does, because if AA is a bad fit and you're already a pickled drunk, you're apt to say, f'it, I'm gonna die anyways, might as well drink. I got a lot of this attitude at local AA meetings, so it isn't just ancient writings of Bill that no one pays attention to anymore.

Dee74

I dunno about you, Jeffrey, but noone ever 'made' me drink...

If they were to hear that message, why is the responsibility on AA and not the drinker?


There are many more approaches out there - if one is a 'bad fit' for me, then surely it's my responsibility to try others?

D

Dee74

I appreciate your points awuh
The way I see it, anyones free to politely refute anything they think is wrong here, or report posts they feel break the rules...

and I urge folks to do either

Dee
Moderator
SR

esinger

I stand corrected. Looks like the nonmembers won't die if they don't follow the "suggested" steps only the members. Definitely not a cult then.
Never Mind! I guess just enjoy your life then. How ever you wish to live it.

Dee74

I said refute politely, chaps

Dee
Moderator
SR

courage2

Someone in a meeting I was in on Saturday said Naltrexone was changing his life -- no one seemed to object. Of course, everybody in NYC gets "outside help" as they call it. In my meetings, few would blink at the Naltrexone, though some might be against it privately.

Telling "them" that for you there's no higher power, on the other hand, seems unnecessarily aggressive (though not unusual). Given that you know AA considers itself a spiritual program, why enter with a plan to throw it in people's faces that you're not interested? I can understand if you enter with an attitude of trying to learn, and then get angry or frustrated, but if you're going to walk through the doors with an attitude, why walk through at all?

Unless, of course, you have some hope it might help you.

Carlotta

I 'd bet that H2SO4 will just come in late, sit very quietly in the back of the room, say absolutely nothing, get his paper signed at the break and leave immediately. There is a big difference between having cyber cojones and acting up in front of a group of people LOL
and this is one of the reasons why I am not in favour of signing court slips btw.

awuh1

You will neither be thrown out nor talked down. As long as you have a desire to stop drinking you will not be thrown out. The 'cross talk' rules generally prevent someone from being talked down. It would seem you don't know that, just as you are uninformed about many things AA. I don't blame you for that. I'm just curious how a person newly sober comes to value their knowledge of things recovery related more than a room full of individuals whose combined experience often spans several centuries.

JeffreyAK

Surely you aren't disregarding the very real toll that such words have on real addicts who need help, and who don't need to be told, follow this program or die? That is on AA's conscience. A better approach that would save lives, even if it doesn't always gain members, would be, if this program isn't for you, how about trying this other one? Not every addict can think straight, if you could do that then I'm glad it wasn't so bad for you. There are others in worse shape.

Dee74

Jeffrey I can only speak from my experience.

I have to be honest - I find your characterization of alcoholics as weak willed, feeble minded, helpless individuals who give up at the first hurdle or the first criticism, troubling.

It certainly wasn't like that for me - and it's not been the case when speaking with many many thousands of members during my time here at SR.

I don't doubt such ideas exist in a small minority of AA members.
I can remember experiencing a 'do AA or die' mentality in my early days from one or two old timers...

but' it didn't devastate me at all - it made me even more determined to succeed in my recovery

I'll say it again - there are many many approaches to getting sober in 2015 - if one is not a good fit there's no excuse for not trying another....

D

tomsteve

for some reason, and maybe it's because I've fought cancer, still have it, know many that have and died,and have seen many children fighting cancer, I really find it completely and totally ignorant to compare treatment of alcoholism to treatment of cancer.

tomsteve

There's a simple solution. To tell the judge it's unconstitutional to make you get a paper signed.
Or
Go to the bar and buy a signature for a beer. It worked for me.

What's a judge have to do with your recovery anyways? Is it now mandatory when a person decides to get help they have to go in front of a judge ad get their approval?

Joe Nerv

Well, if the only reason you're going there is to get your paper signed then tell them anything you want. Including the fact that you're only there to get your paper signed. People will treat you accordingly.

If you'd like to become part of the group, that's a different story. There IS however actually a requirement for membership in AA. Only one. That you have a desire to stop drinking. If you do in fact have that, then I'd say focus on that as opposed to the Naltrexone and HP beliefs. Nobody is going to ask you to fill out any questionnaires, or require you to tell them anything. Some people believe it's a good idea to just sit and listen anyhow. As the cliche goes, "Take the cotton out of our ears, and put it in our mouths."

And the only way I know of getting thrown out of an AA meeting is to be really disruptive. In 30 years of meetings, I've seen it happen only once, and it's because the guy was making the meeting impossible to continue.

Johnston

I never felt comfortable with the court card thing myself. But it seems to have helped some.

miamifella

The things that make people think AA is cult-like are going to be negative things.

I spent over 7 years in the program and I think the literature describes a program that is not at all cult-like. And we can find many things in the BB that go against what people are reporting here.

However, people new to the program are going to take what they hear in meetings and from their sponsors as representing the program. In the 30 or 40 groups I attended it was often said that without AA you would not stay sober--that any alcoholic who does not recover the AA way will end up in prision, in a hospital, or dead.

I lived in a sober house between us we were given a laundry list of bizarre requests by our sponsors. None of us had the confidence or knowledge to tell our sponsor he was doing it wrong.

The phrase "pointing a finger at the errant behavior some individual AA member's" implies that the cult-like behavior is somehow isolated incidents. But in my experience over the years, it is far too pervasive to downplay in that way.

Maybe some AA member should start a thread about how members can turn the tide against the cultists in the program? This already seems to be starting. What I used to read on SR was more cultist and now people are reporting practices that would have been unthinkable in 12-step programs 15 years ago.

But the first step in solving a problem is admitting it exists. There has been a lot of admitting here. So what is next?

Dave36

why is that completely ignorant. I thought AA said alcoholism is a death sentence

Dave36

You're missing the point. Never mind