Rational Recovery vs 12 steps/AA
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
IfYouCanDream, I suggest you look into both, and every other dang thing you can find. Make that choice to quit, and use every tool there is to make it happen. You can do it if you only believe you can.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,445
I think it's possible to discuss this civilly, and I thank the majority of you. I did remove one post though.
Please remember rule 4
Dee
Moderator
SR
Please remember rule 4
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No posts that attack, insult, "flame", defame, or abuse members or non-members. Respect other members of the community and don’t belittle, make fun of, or insult another member or non-member. Decisions about health and recovery are highly personal, individual choices. "Flaming" and insults, however, will not be tolerated. Agree to disagree. This applies to both the forums and chat.
No posts that attack, insult, "flame", defame, or abuse members or non-members. Respect other members of the community and don’t belittle, make fun of, or insult another member or non-member. Decisions about health and recovery are highly personal, individual choices. "Flaming" and insults, however, will not be tolerated. Agree to disagree. This applies to both the forums and chat.
Moderator
SR
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
IfYouCanDream,
here's a link to a thread that might interest you:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post3843895
very lengthy, but well worth the time.
here's a link to a thread that might interest you:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post3843895
very lengthy, but well worth the time.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Bardo
Posts: 246
The idea of an AV is undoubtedly a useful metaphor and effective means for many. For me, it is not - because it doesn't capture my experience. I don't have a voice in my head urging me to drink. (I'm only going here from what I've read from people who use that idea.)
What I experience is a physical compulsive urge to drink, and an addictive response. I am not pretending to be "scientific" here - just describing my experience. Whatever irrational thinking that may, or may not, go along with that is just (ir)rationalization. The parts of our brains that support reason and logic can (erroneously) react that way to what they perceive as otherwise irrational situations - which sometimes can be seen in people reacting subconsciously to a hypnotic suggestion, attempting to rationalize (make sense of) a subconscious reaction for which they can't identify the source.
For me, talking out loud (e.g. in a group) or writing down my thoughts (e.g. here) is a way of "externalizing" them, which has a number of psychological effects - but, first and foremost, short-circuits the inner compulsive feedback loops. I am still left with the physical compulsion to deal with, but at least I can do so with some clarity.
Also, I find a process that is somewhat preemptive to be helpful, so that I am not always reacting to whatever triggers I have.
Everyone has to find their own way.
What I experience is a physical compulsive urge to drink, and an addictive response. I am not pretending to be "scientific" here - just describing my experience. Whatever irrational thinking that may, or may not, go along with that is just (ir)rationalization. The parts of our brains that support reason and logic can (erroneously) react that way to what they perceive as otherwise irrational situations - which sometimes can be seen in people reacting subconsciously to a hypnotic suggestion, attempting to rationalize (make sense of) a subconscious reaction for which they can't identify the source.
For me, talking out loud (e.g. in a group) or writing down my thoughts (e.g. here) is a way of "externalizing" them, which has a number of psychological effects - but, first and foremost, short-circuits the inner compulsive feedback loops. I am still left with the physical compulsion to deal with, but at least I can do so with some clarity.
Also, I find a process that is somewhat preemptive to be helpful, so that I am not always reacting to whatever triggers I have.
Everyone has to find their own way.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,945
I woke up at 9 pm and by 930 pm my AV was raging the liquor store closes at ten and I needed cigs I made it threw now I have tomorrow to look forward to without a hang over. It really worked for me and I no little about AVRT. I"M so happy Christmas is my sobriety date.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,962
My experience of combining AA with RR or more to the point AVRT was and continues to be beneficial. AA is good for peer support, AVRT is great for putting alcoholism to rest, without undue stress or much fuss.
I'm a simple man and I like a simple plan,
AVRT cuts to the quick when alcohol needs to be eliminated for good.
I'm a simple man and I like a simple plan,
AVRT cuts to the quick when alcohol needs to be eliminated for good.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: The Sooner State
Posts: 1,725
Give them each some time and see what fits. I use SR mainly. But I have also frequented the rooms off and on for 4 years. This disease is deadly. I dont think you can have to much support. Face to face (for me) makes me more accountable. I had a hard time with defiance and acceptance. AA & SR helped me with that. I know I cant drink. I know if I harbor resentments, I will drink. Sorry there is no cookie cutter answer to anything that deals with alcoholism.
Also Im glad Dee didnt have a heart attack when he saw this thread
Also Im glad Dee didnt have a heart attack when he saw this thread
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,962
Originally Posted by OklaBH 
Also Im glad Dee didnt have a heart attack when he saw this thread
.May we all get along.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: C.C. Ma.
Posts: 3,697
Hi.
When I became sober, before the internet was around, the only show in town was AA and just about all rehabs were AA based.
I feel that most programs will work IF they are worked by the individual as a lifetime project because most forget what it was like drinking the further out time wise we go.
The big thing is “if it works don’t fix it.” Continue using it.
BE WELL
When I became sober, before the internet was around, the only show in town was AA and just about all rehabs were AA based.
I feel that most programs will work IF they are worked by the individual as a lifetime project because most forget what it was like drinking the further out time wise we go.
The big thing is “if it works don’t fix it.” Continue using it.
BE WELL
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 379
RR is what has worked for me. I have just hit the three-year mark.
I had no interest in AA at all. But that was my personal choice. I refused to feel a slave to my problem with alcohol.
I decided I wanted a better life and that meant cutting out alcohol. I know it is a slippery slope if I drink again, so I don't want to.
So far, so good.
I had no interest in AA at all. But that was my personal choice. I refused to feel a slave to my problem with alcohol.
I decided I wanted a better life and that meant cutting out alcohol. I know it is a slippery slope if I drink again, so I don't want to.
So far, so good.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,962
Originally Posted by IOAA2
Hi.
When I became sober, before the internet was around, the only show in town was AA and just about all rehabs were AA based.
I feel that most programs will work IF they are worked by the individual as a lifetime project
The big thing is “if it works don’t fix it.” Continue using it.
BE WELL
When I became sober, before the internet was around, the only show in town was AA and just about all rehabs were AA based.
I feel that most programs will work IF they are worked by the individual as a lifetime project
The big thing is “if it works don’t fix it.” Continue using it.
BE WELL
Thanks to my innovation, skill seeking and just seeking knowledge beyond my capacity to know what to do. Recovery resources opened beyond my simple measure a igroint newbee in recovery. Hello literature!
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
What I have learned here and from others is the world is a shades of gray. Things are not what my premise always was - black or white, mainly.
So much happier realizing we are a polyglot of people with a polyglot of solutions.
I can't wait to read of YOUR solution and success!
So much happier realizing we are a polyglot of people with a polyglot of solutions.
I can't wait to read of YOUR solution and success!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,222
hi Dreamer, I am on day 53 after 27 years drinking. I have been using AVRT for the 53 days and tonight I attended my second AA meeting. I think both are very useful and I also thing that they can be used simultaneously from what I have seen. I find AVRT gives me very useful tools for handling my addiction from minute to minute when I feel the urge to drink and I can see that AA can provide a framework to build your sobriety around. Ultimately you need to really want to do this but I would encourage you to actively try both and see what resonates for you.
Better when never is never
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Wisconsin near Twin Cities
Posts: 1,745
I tried AA, but I need an approach that would empower me. I needed to rebuild my ego, not learn humility. I needed to follow a path true to my beliefs, so I wouldn't compromise my values or twist my logic. I needed something simple and permanent. I needed something that was right for my particular conditions.
I tried RR, but I did not need all the extra language. I made a permanent decision using my own words. I do use the AVRT tool, though.
I tried RR, but I did not need all the extra language. I made a permanent decision using my own words. I do use the AVRT tool, though.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Us
Posts: 1,366
I think both can be of use to people, which one one finds a better match may have something to do with how they are motivated, i.e., if they have an internal or external center (locus) of control.
But regardless, recovery rates are truly dreadful regardless of method. I really wish for a program, or pill or? to be developed that will work for the vast majority of people. It is appalling that so many of us stay sick and so many die from this.
But regardless, recovery rates are truly dreadful regardless of method. I really wish for a program, or pill or? to be developed that will work for the vast majority of people. It is appalling that so many of us stay sick and so many die from this.
Better when never is never
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Wisconsin near Twin Cities
Posts: 1,745
Originally Posted by ru12
But regardless, recovery rates are truly dreadful regardless of method. I really wish for a program, or pill or? to be developed that will work for the vast majority of people. It is appalling that so many of us stay sick and so many die from this.
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
I use AA myself. I learned about AA as a young child, my dad got sober with AA about 44 years ago. So that's where I knew to go for help.
I had never heard of RR until I read about it here at SR. I never looked into it much until fairly recently. I realized I could relate with the AV thing .... I've said many times that my disease talks to me, wants to kill me, wants to convince me I can have just one. Pretty similar.
Whatever works best for you to save your life ..... do it. We all have the same goal and it's just silly to think we'll all have the same path. Honestly, thank goodness we don't all have the same path. I can come to SR and get a different perspective on anything. I can ALWAYS use a different perspective, mine gets sort of distorted sometimes.
I had never heard of RR until I read about it here at SR. I never looked into it much until fairly recently. I realized I could relate with the AV thing .... I've said many times that my disease talks to me, wants to kill me, wants to convince me I can have just one. Pretty similar.
Whatever works best for you to save your life ..... do it. We all have the same goal and it's just silly to think we'll all have the same path. Honestly, thank goodness we don't all have the same path. I can come to SR and get a different perspective on anything. I can ALWAYS use a different perspective, mine gets sort of distorted sometimes.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
I am also one of those that use a little bit of everything, but no one method as prescribed. I like to do my own "programming" with everything in my life, so I guess recovery is just one of these things. I tell myself that I would follow any regimen if my approach failed me, but so far that has not happened.
RR / AVRT was the first method that I studied when I quit drinking. I am a very open-minded person and usually don't like very much thinking about something as a "finished product" or that it could not be otherwise, but with this, I like the idea of making a decision about never drinking again no matter what. I don't want to revisit this decision on a daily basis or depending on whatever happens in my life, it's done for me. I also like monitoring my mind for potential thoughts and feelings of relapse and being the introspective person I am, I'm quite good at this. It was especially invaluable for me in the early days of sobriety as I experienced very frequent and intense cravings for alcohol. I do not perceive these things as isolated from my "good thoughts" though, simply just a part of me.
I also like many aspects of AA and the 12-step program, although I never officially worked the program with a sponsor or became active in AA. I went to a few meetings during my first sober months, and will try a few again now after nearly a year of sobriety, because I feel I could use some reinforcement.
My personal opinion is that RR and AA are not mutually exclusive at all, and there is no need to choose either one, unless one wants to. Yes some of the authors and followers of these methods suggest that they are not compatible, but it's really all up to subjective interpretation and how we apply the methods. We can also use different methods at different phases of our recovery. I typically like rational and logical solutions in my life, but there is also just so much that does not follow that trend, and I actually don't even like to separate the rational and irrational, because in reality, in how humans work, I don't think they are separable beyond the discussion of them.
There are also many other things than RR and AA. My biggest belief regarding recovery, if I had to name one, is that it's most important to work on ourselves and our life such that we don't want to run away from the self and our life into addictions. So in this context, I think that for most people, more is needed than simply just not drinking anymore.
RR / AVRT was the first method that I studied when I quit drinking. I am a very open-minded person and usually don't like very much thinking about something as a "finished product" or that it could not be otherwise, but with this, I like the idea of making a decision about never drinking again no matter what. I don't want to revisit this decision on a daily basis or depending on whatever happens in my life, it's done for me. I also like monitoring my mind for potential thoughts and feelings of relapse and being the introspective person I am, I'm quite good at this. It was especially invaluable for me in the early days of sobriety as I experienced very frequent and intense cravings for alcohol. I do not perceive these things as isolated from my "good thoughts" though, simply just a part of me.
I also like many aspects of AA and the 12-step program, although I never officially worked the program with a sponsor or became active in AA. I went to a few meetings during my first sober months, and will try a few again now after nearly a year of sobriety, because I feel I could use some reinforcement.
My personal opinion is that RR and AA are not mutually exclusive at all, and there is no need to choose either one, unless one wants to. Yes some of the authors and followers of these methods suggest that they are not compatible, but it's really all up to subjective interpretation and how we apply the methods. We can also use different methods at different phases of our recovery. I typically like rational and logical solutions in my life, but there is also just so much that does not follow that trend, and I actually don't even like to separate the rational and irrational, because in reality, in how humans work, I don't think they are separable beyond the discussion of them.
There are also many other things than RR and AA. My biggest belief regarding recovery, if I had to name one, is that it's most important to work on ourselves and our life such that we don't want to run away from the self and our life into addictions. So in this context, I think that for most people, more is needed than simply just not drinking anymore.
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