Hgrokit

Thanks for the input, but no one ever stated he was not informed.

Dan

....
I just recognize in Don someone who doesn't use AA, but who also has made a serious effort to learn about it.
Many people post innacurate things about AA.
I don't think Don S. is one of them.
Thank you.

Hgrokit

Don - this is the passage that got me going. However, I was reminded by someone with more wisdom that I that there are other paths to sobriety.

Although I contend that your statements are in error, this is not a place to discuss them. If another path has brought you sobriety and serenity, who am I to make judgements?

However, you also make assertions in your post which are opinion which you seem to hold out as fact. Nevertheless, this is a recovery board and not a debate arena, another aspect I did not consider when making my response to your post.

You seem very well informed, just not in the realm of A.A. as apparently I am ill informed in whichever recovery path you are following.

As it is not supposed to be about me today, I can be content to state I was wrong in claiming the assertions YOU believe in to be wrong.

My only goal and desire is to be of serivce to those that still suffer. debate between the two of us can only cause to take away from that goal.

3legacy

I'm still new to this forum, otherwise I would cut, copy, paste & twist etc... others post, quite like I see a few others doing here on varieties of postings.

(((((Dan)))))))

Just a gentle reminder though - that with the advent of the information age, increased information has also led to increased misinformation proliferating itself. "Science" is great, but apparently some forget that it too has been forever changing over the past 7 decades.

((((((((Don S)))))))) I too greatly enjoyed the intellectualization and argument of most every issue for many years, especially while I was still drinking. From my perspective, you are absolutely right that A.A. is not the only means of recovery available, nor should it be. Nice to see we do have some common ground of belief. I'll have to reread the early posts to see where anyone here on this thread said it was.

I have seen plenty of AA bashing elsewhere already. The proof is usually in the pudding with some of the custard coming from folks who's cashflow is apparently tied into the relapse recidivism process.

((((((((SR))))))))) ((((((((Minority Opinion))))))))) especially when I might be giving it.

Kiss Hearts of Spirit
In Love & Service,

Three Legs
PS ((((((Nessa )))))) sorry it appears some of us folks may be highjacking your initial thread. Just a suggestion to Owner and Managers of SR that this would appear to now belong in the argueholism category.

(((((((Nessa & SR))))))))) It really is all part of the process from my personal perspective.

Peter

Then if it is outdated and not scientificbut it works then whats the point ?

For many years AA was the only recourse for people suffering the effects of alcoholism and AA has helped to save the lives of thousands when nobody else even had a clue of what to do.I believe it was Bill W himself who predicted that the day would come when newer ways would be discovered to help battle the scourge of alcoholism and that he himself would welcome it.

I consider myself a veteran of online debates as to the "disease concept" of alcoholism and I have seen tempers flare .I have seen members storm out in a rage , I have seen some banned for getting too personal and the only conclusion that evolved from the whole discussion is that people have very strong opinions about the topic.....nohing more......nothing less.....

AA did not "invent the cure for alcoholism" neither has it ever claimed to have the only solution.It however saved this drunk's life and that is the only thing I can state with 100% certainty.

Feel free to debate as much as you want on any issue related to alcoholism.Just remember to do it in an atmosphere of tolerance and respect for another's opinion and remember a very important rule in life......."Don't take it personally.It's not about you."

1Marty

I just want to add that when I finaly sought help for my drinking, I was referred to go to AA, as if it were the only recovery method. Early on, I would have liked more info on other methods. I think its a good thing to learn all we can.

Don S

All your points about tone and tolerance here are well taken, Peter, and I hope I haven't been disrespectful. But since you singled out my quote, I'll point out that I didn't say that it works.

"The fact is that AA, or any other treatment method, has not been proven to have a better success rate than any other, or, in fact, no treatment at all."--Jon

I simply said that the lack of a scientific basis doesn't mean that it isn't effective. I realize that constitutes a double negative, but it doesn't mean the same as what you said I said! Christian Science and Mormonism are very effective means of achieving long-term sobriety, too. In fact, members of those religions probably have a far higher rate of abstinence than do members of AA, SMART Recovery, RR, SOS, or any other recovery program. Neither of those religions is based on science (the name of the former notwithstanding), and I wouldn't personally recommend either for the purpose of achieving abstinence.

Statistically, you are more likely to achieve sobriety via various forms of therapy involving learning life skills, behavioral therapy, marital counseling, communication skills, or via brief, non-confrontational intervention. None of these (getting back to the question of this thread!) leads me to the conclusion that we are dealing with a disease. All of these sound to me like they are working on behavior. Which is why I say that I believe substance abuse is a compulsive behavior.

But you and I are not statistics.

Don S

Ninerfan

Strictly speaking it is a choice. I did the drinking which resulted in....well you know. I'm responsible for the drinking and for my recovery with a lot of help. Including the God of my understanding. I liked drinking for a long time but somewherre along the way it wasn't fun anymorre and the problems began. And over time drinking edged itself into my life and took it over without me even noticing. At that point it is hard to just stop without help, at least for me. Or without a plan and support structures. I should say stay stopped, anyone can stop for a while, but staying stopped is a different process. I was sent to AA and while I was not interested in stopping drinking at that point, I was interested in changing my living circumstances. AA fit me very nicely. Alcoholism is not referred to as a disease in our literature, that has become sort of an unwritten tradition in AA to call it our disease. It is really not a big deal, one either is an alcoholic or not. Its what you do with your condition that counts. It can be confusing to someone new because our illness is not like Cancer or AIDs but it will surely destroy my life just like those two will.

nessa

Hi Everyone!
Thank you for all your posts. didn't mean to cause any arguements! I am now on my 5th week of not drinking. I am so proud of me!!!! for those of you that are still drinking and want to cut down or stop there is a site I went to called downyourdrink.com it is a free six week program try it out! Hope everyone is having a wonderful day!

mrohno

Shouldn't that be http://www.downyourdrink.org.uk/main.php???

mrohno

Interesting distinction here though from their faq page (http://www.downyourdrink.org.uk/page.php?seq=faq):

"Question: Who is the program designed for?
Answer: The Down Your Drink program is designed for anyone who is concerned about their drinking

Question: Who is the program not for?
Answer: The program is not designed for people who:
a) are not concerned about their drinking or
b) Alcoholics , who should contact their Doctor or local alcohol treatment project. See the Alcohol Concern website for your local project.

Question: What is an alcoholic?
Answer: An alcoholic is someone who gets serious physical withdrawal symptoms when they stop drinking."

Patsyd1

I would disagree with the above statement completely. Not all alcoholics have serious physical withdrawal, and not all alcoholics have DT's when withdrawing.

An alcoholic is anyone who has lost the choice to NOT drink.

My physical withdrawal from alcohol was the inability to sleep well and I got up in the middle of the night for a few weeks.

Now my mother went into full blown DT's and needed a detox.

There are many who come to AA and never need physical detoxing, and there are some who need to be detoxed for medical and safety reasons.

ALL alcoholics....... have lost the ability to choose NOT to drink, even without serious physical withdrawal.

There are no degrees of alcoholism, only degrees of trouble.

Just my thoughts,

Patsy

2stop

Just wanted to add a few of my thoughts on this. I have debated alot over is addiction/alcoholism a disease or a choice. I would not say alcoholism is when we lose the ability to choose..because the very basis of ANY program to stop an obsession or habit or addiction is to CHOOSE another way..to finally choose to be responsible for our feelings and not search obsessively outside ourselves for our happiness and peace of mind. For me I do not believe I so much had a disease as the inability to choose 100% responsiblity for my feelings and well being..I had a thinking problem. Now obviously my choices created some physical and mental/emotional consequences, which the medical community is quick to label and package away neatly and prescribe a drug for....but I reject them for myself. I know for me my choices, my thinking problem is what screwed me up, the chemicals aggravated and stirred up alot of physical problems..but through choices I made myself ill, through choices I make myself well.

...and that is the great thing about it I believe.....we DO have a choice, we just have to believe that. Whether it is a 12 step program or will power makes no difference to me, however one regains responsiblity for their lives and chooses a life affirming way and positive outcome is awesome.

It stunned me when I realized all along during my active addiction/alcoholism I DID have the choice...I just rejected the notion that anything but a chemical could help me..so obviously I pursued only one way, closed my mind to any other possibility of assistance...that didn't make me diseased, but made me one tracked minded and well on my way to hell(which I visited many many times)...for me that means I wasn't diseased...I was thinking and choosing all wrong and paid a heavy price...but in the end..it WAS my choice that saved me. I just had to believe and open my mind to another way. I rely on a HP, I work a spiritual program..but I never underestimate the power of our wills......it is how we use our wills, who and what we rely on, what we choose that makes a difference.

just my 2 cents worth!

wiebe

Okay, I've been wondering about this so long (years) that I'm just going to post it, and see if any relevent answers come out of it. I'm a heavy drinker and have known a lot of other people who just plain drank way too much. Many years ago I read the big book, and I couldn't really identify with the histories there. Booze had screwed up my life years ago but not in the same way.

Then about 3 years ago I got a job in Amsterdam and worked (briefly) with a guy who could have walked right out of the pages of the BB. There were 2 very major differences between his drinking and mine.

1, When he had his very first drink he visibly changed, and he became another person. From him I learned what the term "lit up" meant. He couldn't focus on anything but drinking more after that very first one.

2, After a day and an evening of heavy drinking (since he was in no shape to work anymore) I noticed an even bigger difference between his drinking and mine. I can drink about 20 pints without really showing any drunkenness, but he didn't seem to have any limit at all. Tons of beer mixed with heavier drinks, and at the end of the evening he was in the same (sober?) state as when he'd had that very first drink. Alert, happy, and wanting to party more (which he did, while I went home to sleep).

Through this experience I've always wondered about that "powerless over alcohol" stuff. Is it helpful to the majority of us who have nervous/sleeping problems?

The big book says that if you want to see if you're an alcoholic or not, go to a bar and have a few drinks and then stop. If you can do that repeatedly you're not an alcoholic.

Yes, I've done that countless times, but in the evening I feel the sleeplessness coming on and buy a bag of sleeping potion.

Alcoholism??????????

The 7th (?) step is about making amends? God, I have so much to make amends for, for the things I've done while I was sober. I'm very unpredictable in that state. Almost never violent, but unpredictable.

Psychological tests came back with words like scitzophrenic, phsychotic, no sense of right and wrong, etc, etc. Add a few beer (a mild sedative) and I'm the easiest guy to get along with anywhere.

I don't think my drinking is really an alcohol problem, and I'm back to looking for a doctor who is still taking new patients (very hard here in Holland). Really looking forward to any relevent feedback from the members here.

Take care
Wiebe

Patsyd1

When I was drinking, I wasn't able to "THINK" of anything else but alcohol. The mental obsession with alcohol that I had prevented me from "believing" that I had a choice of any kind.

It was when I became desperate, and thought that I was literally going insane, that I took someone up on their suggestion of talking with someone from AA.

Before recovery, I had no choices, the mental obsession saw to it that my choices were gone and that I would take that first drink. The physical compulsion then took over after I put that first drink into my body, and for this drunk I had literally lost the ability to choose to not drink.

It was when I went to an AA meeting that I realized for the first time, that I was not alone, that there was a solution, and these people and this simple program could help me to make the choice to not drink for that one day.

I needed help to make the choice to not drink, because the truth is that booze was only a symptom, and the real problem was ME. After I went to my first AA meeting I heard what I NEEDED to hear so that I could take actions that helped me to be able to choose not to drink that first sucker drink.

There is much much more to not drinking for this drunk, then just not drinking.

I simply didn't know, what I didn't know. I have the choice today to not drink, because I am working a simple program in my life, that has helped to change the person that I brought into AA.

Without recovery of some kind, I believe that I would have continued to do the same things over and over again, expecting different results. Because I simply didn't know, what I didn't know.

I can not claim today that I do not know what I know..... and today its all about choices. Not just with booze, but with every aspect of my life..... Thank you God, AA, the 12 Steps and all you wonderful people.

I have the gift of choices today, something that I literally never had in regards to much of my life...... before recovery.

Patsyd1

Hi Wiebe,

I could drink men under the table and I would not show any signs of drunkedness....... yet.

There came a time in my drinking when one drink of alcohol would put me into a blackout. Alcoholism is progressive, insidious, and deadly.

There are no degrees of alcoholism, only degrees of trouble.

I was in big time trouble with alcohol, years before. I simply would just find someone who drank much worse than me and I would compare myself to that person and their drinking. I would say things like "If I ever get THAT bad, then I will quit drinking".

I kept pushing the envelope more and more, until one day I became the drunk that everyone else was comparing themselves to.......and saying "If I ever get THAT bad, I will quit drinking"

Its not how much we drink, or how often we drink.......its what happens to us when we drink.

I have a lot of YETS waiting for me out there Wiebe, and all I have to do is decide that I wasn't THAT bad or that I wasn't as bad as THAT person and that LIE would take me out there and I know that I wouldn't make it back. I would be 6 feet under if I continued to "think" with the same mind that I drank with. I am grateful that I do not have to do that anymore, thank God.

con

hello Con here
We have seen the truth demonstrated again and again: "Once an alcoholic,
always an alcoholic."
"This is not true. Some people do moderate their drinking. Among other facts, 'aging out' has been described by Stanton Peele and is not uncommon"
quote from Don's. "NOT ME"
anybody who can quit on there own will power may not be an alcoholic,maybe just a hard drinker.
As for the cigarette's theiry i never went missing for days and my kids done with out food when i lifted the first cigarette.
DONT YOU THINK I WOULD HAVE STOPPED IF I COULD HAVE ON MY OWN

Ninerfan

Jesus here we go again. The truth is Con that you did choose to quit. So did I, so did Patsy, so did every sober alcoholic living and dead. We finally came to...By the grace of God or whomever, we picked up the tools of recovery and with a lot of help.......we chose life. We all quit drinking of our own free wills. Nobody made us do it, we did. It just seems like a miracle because we/I was so freaking pathetic as a drunk and I couldn't see any way out of the hole I had dug. AA saved my life but I did the work and I worked the steps so I give myself some credit. Anyway, have a good day.

Kit

I really appreciated the sites Hgrokit offered. Thanks! I spent a long time looking through them last night and saved them in my "favorite places". I read examples of people who had not had a drink in a really long time, thinking it was ok to have just one, and as a result being unable to stop at the One drink. That really hit home. I do believe that the first one is a choice, but after that something kicks in that makes it a choice no longer. I will NOT make that bad choice tonight!!!!

Kit

Hi Wiebe, I read what you had to say with great interest. You are like many male members of my family. When they DON'T drink, they exhibit signs of depression, anxiety, moodiness. It completely goes away with the first drink. My dad is way more charming and fun when drinking, as is my brother. My other brother doesn't drink because he has schizophrenia. They, however, are like your friend who can drink forever, not ever slur a word AND they sleep great at night. They think I'm crazy to want to stop drinking! I can't sleep when I drink. I believe they both have something else going on. Maybe some kind of depression - God knows mental illness runs through my family, and the booze is a temporary way of self medicating. Although I suppose if they drink everyday it isn't very temporary now is it? I have decided that drinking isn't good for me and not good for them - which they think is hilarious. I really think that if you have something else going on, it may feel like a relief to drink, but it will only end up making it worse as you go on. The more you drink to feel better, the more you'll have to. Sounds too simple.