nessa

I would like to know other peoples oppinions on this subject of alcohol.
And why you believe it is a disease or a choice that you make.
Thank you it will help me too to see what others think. :boat

peace2u

I think possibly it's initially a choice which can become a disease depending on each person's physiological and psychological makeup. Then like any other disease, a person has a choice whether to treat the disease or deny it.
peace2u

Rowan

I have learned that alcoholism is a disease and I believe that. After a period of sobriety, if I choose to drink, that is a choice. After taking the first drink the phenomenon of craving occurs and the body craves another. And another. Choice is no longer is an option. I know. I tried. Again and again.
The Big Book describes this in much greater detail.
Rowan

Patsyd1

Hi Nessa,

I do believe that alcoholism is a disease. I also believe that this disease can be used by an untreated alcoholic mind to use it an excuse to continue drinking, oh poor me, I have a disease and therefore I can't do anything about it, so leave me alone and do not pick on me, because I am helpless, I have a disease. Well, thats BS, plain and simple.

The truth for this recovering alcoholic is really simple. I have a disease that I had no clue about when I was drinking, therefore I just didn't know, what I didn't know. When I hit bottom and I was confused, hurting, and absolutely lost and came through those doors of AA, it was explained to me by those who had been where I was at, and they had done this long before me, that there IS A SOLUTION.

When this dis-ease was explained to me then I was no longer clueless, I was no longer helpless, I DID know now, what I didn't know before. And from that moment on, the responsibility and accountability for MY dis-ease, was put squarely on the TRUTH. The truth is that once I knew, once I was informed, once I had the information about this disease, then the responsibility for my disease, my drinking, my recovery where put right where they belonged........ ON ME. I am the only one who is responsible and accountable for my alcoholism, and what I choose to do about it.

The word dis-ease isn't about having another excuse to DO NOTHING and have another drink. The word dis-ease is a valid reason why I continued to do the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.... and that is insanity.

There are no excuses any longer, there is only one valid reason, and that reason is that I am an alcoholic.. "the disease of alcoholism".

Now, what am I going to DO about it? THAT is when I have a choice, and if I choose to drink, then I am entirely responsible and accountable for that choice. If I choose recovery, then I am entirely responsible and accountable for my recovery.

This is a WE program, and WE can do together, what individuals could not do alone...... take full responsibility for our dis-ease and become accountable humans beings with choices.


Thats what I learned in the halls of AA, and from working this simple program of the 12 Steps and passing it on..... Thank God, AA and all of you

Patsy

1Marty

I really like the algery analogy. I have an algery to alcohol. Once I choose to pick up that first drink, a reaction takes place in my mind that makes me want that second...third...fourth.

Don S

Hi, nessa,

I believe substance abuse is a compulsive behavior, spanning a range from immoderate drinking to seemingly uncontrollable, life-threatening heavy alcohol abuse.

People who have severe compulsive behaviors don't think they can control the behavior. It doesn't seem like a choice. Add to that the physiological effect of the drug, and it can seem unmanageable.

Controlling the behavior involves learning tools to stop the impulse before you act on it. I believe our behavior arises from our beliefs and emotions, so if we change those beliefs we can change our behavior.

The simplest way is to come to the belief that alcohol has no role in your life: I learned to tell myself, over and over, there is nothing in my life that alcohol makes better.

As others have noted, once you take the first drink the others follow all too easily. Researchers have actually found that the decision for the first drink appears to be made in the 'rational' part of the brain, while the subsequent decisions are made in the 'emotional' part of the brain.

So abstinence is the easiest and most successful way to control the behavior. Then that first drink isn't an issue.

Don S

Gooch

Apparently all the attempts to educate me that I had a choice failed or I just never understood the nature of the lesson because once I experienced that first buzz, I was committed until the ride started to really get bumpy some 17 years later.

Hgrokit

It is an illness or disease if you will. Our brain and body chemistry processes alcohol differently than the normal person.

http://www.healingresource.org/book....ds_progressive

There is support in our literature that also supports the allergy theory which causes the insatiable cravings. Also read: http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/w...s_opinion.html

best

ditto to ALL the above


disease or choice.... not drinking is the only way to stop the ill effects of alcohol.

degadar

how about...

diseased behaviour that is prevented by not drinking and cured by choosing not to drink any more

Deg.

3legacy

I was grateful to read Dr Silkworth's Opinion in the book Alcoholics Anonymous.
The physical allergy really made sense to me. So did the mental obsession which I saw so frequently drawing me back into to jump start my allergy.

The "ease" that came from taking a few drinks which others seemed to take with impunity was an awakening for me. I had been in a state of "dis"-ease and that always led to my picking up just one which set the ball rolling into the phenomena of craving once again. By the time the "ease" kicked in for me the allergy made it rather fleeting as I was already on my 6th or 7th drink when the 3rd drink effect slid right on by while I commenced to use my power fo "choice" on my road to oblivion.

The first 194 pages of the Big Book mean the world to me today. Those pages and lots of personal experience, both before and after getting rid of my lurking notions that I could drink like other people, have shaped many of my present opinions and choices. I give my choice in drink to God daily and ask Him to give me the needed power, strength, wisdom, and serenity in my remaining choice - my daily walk in the Solution.

"The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet
obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our
so called will power becomes practically nonexistent.
We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our
consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the
suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago.
We are without defense against the first drink."

((((((((nessa))))))) thanks for asking my opinion and allowing me to share some of it here. (((((((SR A-Z))))))) What a gift we have been offered! Thank God for Grace and Mercy.

Kiss Heart of Spirit In Love & Service,
Three Legs
:tri

Don S

Those quotes from the Big Book illustrate to me why AA is founded on very outdated information on the subject of substance abuse. That doesn't mean it isn't effective! Just not scientific.

The notion of 'us' vs. 'them', of people who heavily abuse alcohol being unique and different, doesn't have a strong scientific basis. There is nothing in those quotes which provides support for such a view, except that it is written by a doctor....long before any of our understanding of brain science and the physiology of addiction. The allergy concept may be useful as a metaphor (as is the disease concept, I suppose), but again has little scientific basis.

More important, the conclusions which follow the Big Book quote are unfounded:
We have seen the truth demonstrated again and again: "Once an alcoholic,
always an alcoholic."
This is not true. Some people do moderate their drinking. Among other facts, 'aging out' has been described by Stanton Peele and is not uncommon.

Young people may be encouraged by this man's experience to think that they can stop, as he did, on their own will power. We doubt if many of them can do it,
because none will really want to stop, and hardly one of them, because of the peculiar mental twist already acquired, will find he can win out.

People CAN and DO stop on their own willpower. As with so many absolute statements in the Big Book, this one is unsupported and should really be a qualified statement. Taking the generalization that it is difficult to quit drinking, turning it into a prediction and applying it to every particular (though hypothetical) individual, is one of the drawbacks of the Big Book and AA.

Alcoholics aren't unique. In fact, alcoholism can't even really be defined effectively. Not all people who abuse alcohol behave the same, and their success or failure at quitting can't be predicted. I don't believe the official AA literature presents alcoholism as a clinical disease, nor does it seem to present the allergy concept as anything other than speculative.

Abstinence is the simplest way to escape the undesirable consequences of drinking, and AA provides one approach to achieving abstinence.

Don S

Hgrokit

Prove it - any of it.

While you are doing your research, review acetone production.

Post as this does a great dis-service to those with addictions.
It is obvious you have not spent much time reading A.A. Lierature as both of your assertions are incorrect, keeping in mind the book was written in 1939. No changes to the original 164 pages have ever been approved. however, in the forwards to each addition, there are additional references to updated opinion.

Seems one might update their own information before making posts as inaccurate as yours.

Chy

IMO a disease/allergy irritated and predicated based upon my unwilling and distorted ability to make positive choices. While active, those choices were guided by the chemical make-up of my brain. Now, sober, I am able to make better decisions, and I am no longer controlled by those mechanisms that made me powerless, unwilling, and incapable to quit.

Amazingly, or not, all it would take is one drink, to kick start my disease again. I know that is one choice I can never make, if, I'm to live. "To drink, is to die". It's one choice I have to work hard at adhearing to, one day at a time. I know, without a doubt, I don't have another recovery left in me. So I do choose wisely.

Don S

Prove which assertion in particular, Hgrokit?
My posts are in no way a dis-service to anyone. Take some time to look at my record on this forum board before you make such a broad assertion.
Don S

Don S

Assertion: People CAN and DO stop on their own willpower.

From Stanton Peele; emphasis added:

".... In fact, as many cigarette smokers quit on their own, an even higher percentage of heroin and cocaine addicts and alcoholics quit without treatment. It is simply more difficult to keep these habits going through adulthood. It’s hard to go to Disney World with your family while you are shooting heroin. Addicts who quit on their own typically report that they did so in order to achieve normalcy.

Every year, the National Survey on Drug Use and Health interviews Americans about their drug and alcohol habits. Ages 18 to 25 constitute the peak period of drug and alcohol use. In 2002, the latest year for which data are available, 22 percent of Americans between ages 18 and 25 were abusing or were dependent on a substance, versus only 3 percent of those aged 55 to 59. These data show that most people overcome their substance abuse, even though most of them do not enter treatment.

How do we know that the majority aren’t seeking treatment? In 1992, the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism conducted one of the largest surveys of substance use ever, sending Census Bureau workers to interview more than 42,000 Americans about their lifetime drug and alcohol use. Of the 4,500-plus respondents who had ever been dependent on alcohol, only 27 percent had gone to treatment of any kind, including Alcoholics Anonymous. In this group, one-third were still abusing alcohol.

Of those who never had any treatment, only about one-quarter were currently diagnosable as alcohol abusers. This study, known as the National Longitudinal Alcohol Epidemiologic Survey, indicates first that treatment is not a cure-all, and second that it is not necessary. The vast majority of Americans who were alcohol dependent, about three-quarters, never underwent treatment. And fewer of them were abusing alcohol than were those who were treated.

This is not to say that treatment can’t be useful. But the most successful treatments are nonconfrontational approaches that allow self-propelled change. Psychologists at the University of New Mexico led by William Miller tabulated every controlled study of alcoholism treatment they could find. They concluded that the leading therapy was barely a therapy at all but a quick encounter between patient and health-care worker in an ordinary medical setting. The intervention is sometimes as brief as a doctor looking at the results of liver-function tests and telling a patient to cut down on his drinking. Many patients then decide to cut back—and do!

As brief interventions have evolved, they have become more structured. A physician may simply review the amount the patient drinks, or use a checklist to evaluate the extent of a drinking problem. The doctor then typically recommends and seeks agreement from the patient on a goal (usually reduced drinking rather than complete abstinence). More severe alcoholics would typically be referred out for specialized treatment. A range of options is discussed (such as attending AA, engaging in activities incompatible with drinking or using a self-help manual). ....."

"The second most effective approach is motivational enhancement, also called motivational interviewing. This technique throws the decision to quit or reduce drinking—and to find the best methods for doing so—back on the individual.
In this case, the therapist asks targeted questions that prompt the individual to reflect on his drinking in terms of his own values and goals. When patients resist, the therapist does not argue with the individual but explores the person’s ambivalence about change so as to allow him or her to draw his own conclusions: "You say that you like to be in control of your behavior, yet you feel when you drink you are often not in charge. Could you just clarify that for me?"

Miller’s team found that the list of most effective treatments for alcoholism included a few more surprises.Self-help manuals were highly successful. So was the community-reinforcement approach, which addresses the person’s capacity to deal with life, notably marital relationships, work issues (such as simply getting a job), leisure planning and social-group formation (a buddy might be provided, as in AA, as a resource to encourage sobriety). The focus is on developing life skills, such as resisting pressures to drink, coping with stress (at work and in relationships) and building communication skills.

These findings square with what we know about change in other areas of life: People change when they want it badly enough and when they feel strong enough to face the challenge, not when they’re humiliated or coerced. An approach that empowers and offers positive reinforcement is preferable to one that strips the individual of agency. These techniques are most likely to elicit real changes, however short of perfect and hard-won they may be."

Don S

Dan

I'll add my voice to Don's here, Hgrokit. Uninformed is one thing we can't say about him.

Don S

Here's a review, also from Peele, which summarizes much of the science about alcoholism:
http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html
His work is especially useful because it is heavily footnoted.

Regarding acetaldehyde:
What, then, do people inherit that keeps them drinking until they become alcoholics? Milam asserts in Under the Influence that the source of alcoholism is acetaldehyde, a chemical produced when the body breaks down alcohol. Some research has found higher levels of this chemical in children of alcoholics when they drink; other research (like the two Danish prospective studies) has not. Such discrepancies in research results also hold for abnormalities in brain waves that various teams of researchers have identified in children of alcoholics...."

continued....

"One insight ... is provided by those who manifest "Oriental flush" — a heightened response to alcohol marked by a visible reddening after drinking that frequently characterizes Asians and Native Americans. Oriental flush has a biochemical basis in that Asian groups display higher acetaldehyde levels when they drink: here, many believe, is a key to alcoholism. But individuals from Asian backgrounds who flush do not necessarily drink more than — or differ in their susceptibility to drinking problems from — those who don't flush.30 Moreover, groups that show flushing have both the highest alcoholism rates (Native Americans and Eskimos) and the lowest rates (Chinese and Japanese) among ethnic groups in the United States."

Don S

Don S

It would be useful to me and to others if you would provide, by link or by copying, any such references.
Don S

Hgrokit

The forwards to all other editions of the Bog Book are not available on line that I have been able to find. Hard copies are available at the public libraries. Sorry