wiebe

The thread is called disease or choice, and what I was trying to say is that for the fellow I worked with, it was a disease. A single drink and he was a different person. He is one of a very small minority of us problem drinkers for who a single drink is like a spark in a powder keg.

I believe that for a real "alchoholic" to keep any kind of lid on his drinking is impossible. I believe in the allergy theory because I saw a drastic change happening in a few minutes.

Are all heavy drinkers destined to get this allergy? If I remember the big book correctly, it says some do and some don't.

Both AA and the Smart program agree that abstinance is the best solution, but I keep reading that statistics say only about 1 in 20 of us will acheive that. I pray and plan to be a member of that elite 5% someday, and in the meantime I'm working on reversing the drinking patterns that developed over the years.

As for the "powerles over alcohol" thing, in the last months I've had to realy fight with that. Like, if you're drinking anyway why not just let loose? NO!!!! My cost benefit analisys just won't allow that. There isn't just drinking/not drinking. Not for me.

There is no comparison between my life one year ago, and now. I drink way less and eat 2 meals a day. The next big accomplishment will be breakfast (coming soon). I've built up to being able to do physical work 4 hours a day, which would have been impossible even 6 months ago.

Am I the only one? The overwhelming majority of us HAVE a choice IMO. We are (still) capable of learning to reverse our drinking habits and head for abstinance.

That's my question. Why do I never see that discussed?

Wiebe

Patsyd1

Well Wiebe, I am going to keep this one real simple. For me, learning to reverse my drinking and head for abstinance...... simply didn't exist without recovery. Now thats me, and I honestly believe that if one is truely alcoholic, one will NEVER ever be able to become a social drinker. And that is what it seems to me that you are discussing, is reversing your drinking? Its called controlled drinking, and for this alkie, once I was began to try to control my drinking, it was already way out of control.

Wiebe, if it was that simple for an alcoholic to reverse their drinking and head for abstinance, do you not think that you would have done that by now?

Yes the overwhelming majority of us do have a choice, once we come out of denial that some day we will be able to drink like normal folks.

Don't Even Notice I Am Lying <------- DENIAL

This illness/disease centers in the mind

Ninerfan

Wiebe, start a new thread. Pose your question to everyone and see what happens. My answer is that most alcoholics cannot reverse their drinking habits. At least I cannot, I don't speak for all alcoholics or AA. Chapter 3 in the Big Book says 'to control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker.' I believe that because that is what I did. There seems to be two optons Wiebe, continued drinking or abstinence. If you continue drinking then the results will be jail, institutions, and death.

con

HI Ninerfan,
If i choose to quit on my own then why did i not do it ten years earlier
when my life was a complete mess and people's round about me also,and in and out of aa since the age of 20.When my kids begged me not to drink with tears down there eyes dont you think i would have if i had enough "will power" the power was not there "page 45 big book" have a nice day my friend

JennieB

AMEN!! I didn't go into a rehab. My withdrawl was sleepless nights, shakes and irritability. I did not need a rehab. That is one reason why I felt I didn't belong in the beginning - I thought if I was an alkie I needed to go thru rehab. Not true.

Ninerfan

Con, we dcn't disagree. We are both sober, we both got that way because of AA, we both came to AA before we finally got sober. My only point is simply this; at some point after you got ears to hear with and you quit the debating society, you made a decision to quit. Maybe you asked God to help you quit, maybe not. But you decided enough was enough and you quit. So did I. We both chose to stop drinking and certainly I needed a lot of help and daily meetings and a sponsor and all the things we do in AA but the most important decision was made by me. I quit drinking and made a begnning. Some people don't need to do all the things I needed to do. All they needed to do was put the plug in the jug. All they wanted was to quit drinking and they were given a sufficient enough reason to do so. There lives were for the most part in order, except for their drinking. Other people were just as miserable as I was but the steps did not speak to them, all they wanted to do was just stop drinkng. AA is not for everyone and we dont have the patent on recovery. This board has proven that there are other ways to get and stay sober besides AA. But it works for me. Peace.

wiebe

Disease . . . a single drink changes a person beyond recognition, and the addict within takes over all higher functions. I've seen it happen, and believe this is the case for a small minority of us.

Choice . . . a few years ago I met a neighbour who is now my girlfriend, and in the begining she'd offer me little samples of things she'd cooked. They were delicious, but I really didn't have much desire to eat anything. The fridge was full of beer, what more did I need? What I did was to make a conscious choice to push myself a bit. A big turning point. Some of the little bites ended up in the fridge and stayed there, and about half of what I did eat came right back up. But, I kept trying and I eat 2 meals a day now.

A year ago I found this forum and from Chy I learned to stay focused on the big fly in the ointment of my life. From Don S and the Smart program I learned to use tools to start effectively reducing the problem.

For 5 years I've been stuck with a doctor who said I was way too far gone for any prescriptions to help me fight my alcohol problem. The website of my health insurance said to ask freinds and neighbours about finding a doctor that's still taking new patients.

Bull, I made the choice to hop onto my bike and found a list of doctors and actualy found one that was still taking new patients. I caught him a half hour before he was leaving on vacation, but I made an appointment in Sept.

All the groundwork is in place, and I hope with a bit of medical support I'll finaly achieve lasting sobriety. I'll never give up on acheivig it.

The point I'm trying to make is that most of us have choices in direction.

In a perfect world there would be no hunger, addictions, or war. Men and women would all have great relationships. Everyone who drank or did anything else too much would quit the instant they realized it was a BAD thing.

Choose for less and move towards none?

Why not?

Take care,
Wiebe

Don S

I don't believe there is any difference between an alcoholic and a hard drinker. Particularly not if the definition is simply someone who has lost the ability to choose NOT to drink. I didn't find the description in the big book useful in distinguishing them.

People who successfully quit drinking make a firm commitment to abstinence. I don't think it has to do so much with willpower--that makes it sound as though people who have trouble changing their behavior are weaker. I think it has to do more with changing our beliefs.

Many seem to be unable to quit because of a fear of what life will be like sober. They anticipate extreme discomfort, anxiety, or an inability to cope with stress. They create a belief, and manage their lives believing, that it will be impossible to live without alcohol. Believing that it is possible is the first step. To borrow a phrase: to come to believe that your life can be manageable without alcohol.

Recognizing that drinking was a choice was important to me in making the decision to quit. It's difficult to generalize about what motivates people to make that commitment, or why we were successful at it. But planning for urges and making some lifestyle changes seem to be common characteristics. Group support can be very helpful as well, and some people describe it as necessary.

Don S

collinsmi

Hmmm........ tricky question! I never drank against my will. Back in my drinking days. I would choose to drink, 99.99% of the time, regardless of the consequences or my drinking track record. I don't drink now, and that's a choice.
Since getting sober and beginning step work, I've come to believe my alcoholism encompasses much more than my (former) lack of control over my drinking. My thinking patterns; my outlook on life is alcoholic. In that sense it is a disease, and AA is the treatment I take for that disease. Additionally, if I fail to treat this disease, my choice will be to drink again. I've proved it before....

David 1

Just my two cents:

Chemical Addiction=Disease

Classic Definition: Symptoms (withdrawal, disruption of social activities, marked tolerance, chronicity, progressive, loss of control, manageability (cannot easily quit by just trying harder).

Stages of disease: Early - increasing tolerance, middle - loss of control, chronic - deterioration.

Genetic component/predisposition: The body of an addicted person reacts differently to mood altering drugs.

Finally, we are not responsible for having the disease, but we are responsible for what we do about it. I belive this fits with Don's findings.

Dave

Frank

Is it really a choice ? Why do I continually relapse every three months or so..In any other situation I would choose whats right...If I know my first drink will be the start of another binge why do I do it. Dunno??. What makes me pick up that first drink knowing very well where I'm going to end up..I dont think choice is the right word. I dont choose to do it...I fight the urges until I have nothing left to fight with...I dont think choice applies applies anymore.

Patsyd1

Hi Frank,

Could it be, that you simply decline to take actions that you do not agree with?

When I became desperate, I reached out for help and even then I had the choice to take the actions that were suggested, or decline. I took those actions because my only choices left were to continue to do the same things over and over again expecting different results......or take the suggestions that were shared with me from those who had been there and done that.

They had smiles on their faces, and I wanted what they had. So I chose to stay, and to take the suggestions, because doing it my way, simply didn't work.

I would suggest getting to an AA meeting, sit and listen. Identify and do not compare, ask for help and take the suggestions, and then keep coming.

Is what you are doing, working for you? If not, then I would suggest doing it another way.

Ninerfan

Frank, you've just described the insanity of alcoholism. We drink even when we know we shouldn't. But don't be fooled, you are making the choice to drink, the drink isn't choosing you. Sometimes you just have to gut it out. You have to understand where the first drink is going to take you and just dont drink no matter what. Dont know if you do AA but the fellowship will help you when the urge to drink hits. I view the fellowship and meetings as a classroom on life. Some people teach me right living and some teach me what I dont want to do. Staying teachable is important. I am less likely to drink when I am emotionally balanced. That is what the steps provide for me.

Dan

Thanks for that Niner.
It hits home big time.

Ninerfan

No problem Dan. ya know when I started doing this thing I thought that after doing the steps once, I would be fixed for life. Didn't think I'd ever have to do them again. I thought my character defects would be gone, I'd be a grown up, and life would be just as I'd imagined it could be. Wrong. LOL We are not saints, we claim spiritual progress not spiritual perfection. The only thing I've done 100% is not drink. That is the only thing I seem to be able to do ALL the time. And I cant' get too cocky about that.

Bose

Personally, I'm not strongly pro- or anti-disease model.

I'm pro-recovery, pro-wellness, pro-whatever-works-best, pro-science, and pro-options.

I just finished writing up a 4-article series on the disease model; maybe the most relevant piece to this discussion would be Disease Model: Chronology, where I pull in links to the history of the disease model.

Take care, all... It's great to see such thoughtful, vigorous discussion in action here.

servicejunkie

Lets face some simple facts here. The AA Big Book was written 65 years ago. Since this time a great deal has been learned about the disease of addiction (alcoholism). To some degree it is outdated literature, at least from a medical/scientific standpoint. It is and will always be current and applicable from a spiritual standpoint. I know the person with the longest sobriety in all of AA when it was written was 4 years. I know some of you AA's are fretting that I just basically said you are addicts, but if you even look in your own literature, "the Doctors OPINION", he refers to your disease as alcoholic addiction. Can you deny that you were addicted to the drug alcohol?? If you check the dictionary and look up the word disease, it says an illness that is medically detectable that has its own set of symptoms. Scientist can actually detect the disease of addiction via brain scans, our brains have a slight variation from the average population. The uncontrollable use of drugs or alcohol is the most obvious symptom for alot of people. The other ones tend to be Obsession, compulsion, self-centerdness, fear, insecurity, and low self esteem. It has also been shown to be progressive, incurable, and can be fatal if not arrested. It makes alot of sense for us to realize that we have a disease, and not a moral deficiency. We are sick people, not bad people. As far as those figures from that study goes, it is still impossible to make some of the conclusions you have proposed, Don. The idea that such a large %% of people age 18-25 abuse alcohol, and such a small %% of people age 55-59, can be justified in several ways. First off, I have had 6 or 7 close friends die of this disease this year alone, all age 25-30. Also, how badly were these people using alcohol or drugs in this study, and how long had they been able to stay off of alcohol?? 10 years, 10 months, 10 days?? What about dishonesty and denial?? Even if they have stopped, the disease can manifest itself in many ways. Many people just find another way to "fix" themselves or fill that void or bottomless pit that is always wanting more, a desperate attempt to feel better. Most all addicts who sober up have problems with obsesstion/compulsion in other areas. The disease "spreads" to other areas and is always trying to find another way to get us. Gambling, sexual obsession, money, power, prestige, eating, compulsive spending, the list is endless. I purchased an X-Box at two weeks clean and stayed up for weeks on end till 3:00-4:00 in the morning playing that thing. I lived on a golf course for about a 8 months last year, I compulsively collected over 4,000 golf balls and could never get enough!! I have also had to deal with a great deal of sexual obsession in recovery. None of these symptoms manifested themselves until I sobered up. Look at it like cancer (only incurable). Cancer=addiction, lung cancer=alcoholism(just one manifestation of the disease). say you start off with lung cancer, You can do your best to try and treat it in one area, and next thing you know you have colon cancer, or it spreads to other areas of the body. You fight it off again, only to find it spreading to another area of your life. You have to remain vigilant and aware of it and seek out treatments to keep it from spreading. Now I know of some people who have gotten clean or sober on self will or ego. They are an exception to the rule. Very religous people have also had some success at STAYING clean or sober for long periods of time. The fact is, for the full blown addict, they loose the choice and willpower upon taking that first drink or drug. No matter how long they have abstained, the results eventually are always the same. It cannot be controlled for any considerable amount of time. I have seen countless people with double digit years clean/sober go back out, things are ALWAYS worse. I have never even heard of a full blown addict (alcoholic) being able to moderate their drinking/drugging for any CONSIDERABLE length of time

servicejunkie

By the way, didn't AA also Claim (promote) that 50% (not 5%) of people NEVER drank again upon just going to aa for the first time?? Big Book

labyrinth

To be honest I have not read everyones response to this thread but here is what I know and my opionion I what I dont know for a fact. In a study of alcoholics who went back to drinking only 3% were able to do so socialy.The rest failed. I think it is more a choice than a disease, A disease is something we have no control over. We can control if we drink or not, yes as time goes by it becomes harder and harder to control but we still have control. I view drinking more like a bad habit, and habits are not diseases they are character defects.

regars

lab

servicejunkie

labyrinth said: In a study of alcoholics who went back to drinking only 3% were able to do so socialy.The rest failed. I think it is more a choice than a disease, A disease is something we have no control over.
---You have contradicted yourself in this sentence. If only 3% of "alcoholics"were able to "drink socially" after starting again, then 97% ADMITTED they could not control their drinking after starting again, this would suggest that it is something that they have NO control over!! I mean thats 32 out of 33 people, and I would be curious to also see how long the other 3% were able to control their drinking. Once that first drink is in their system, a reaction happens in the brain that enables normal functioning of willpower, this is not curable and will be with the person for the rest of their life. I have used against my will on several occasions before I got help.