LBrain

In another thread jaynie04 introduced the "learned helplessness" concept as it may relate to alcohol abuse as a point of observation.

Since that thread is already getting watered down I wanted to move that discussion here. "Learned Helplessness" my take : Not doing something to remove yourself from a bad situation because you think it is useless to try it. (?)

Or that after several attempts you just give up and accept it as a part of existence? The, "It's just no use to try anymore," attitude.

Can alcohol"ism" also be considered in the psyche world to be another variation of "Stockholm Syndrome" ?

It has beat us up and taken over our lives for so long, I need it to survive. ??
How can I live without it? How can I enjoy life without it? etc.

Just something to think about.

PurpleKnight

Your drive and focus on the topic at hand cracks me up Brian, it's fantastic!!

I think we can easily get into that train of thought very easily, we can accept that we are doomed to the fate of alcoholism, "my parents were alcoholics, my grandparents were alcoholics, my cat is an alcoholic" lol . . . but seriously we almost condemn ourselves to things can never ever change.

I think that though is the basis of support, to offer a new perspective, our experiences can cut through the lack of hope, someone may have with what we know, and can share from our own journeys, it is only with creating some kind of hope that it can be done, that people can lift themselves above what they see as a loosing battle and think, "maybe I can do this too"!!

Aellyce

Hey Brain,

Others might chime in to give you more interesting/accurate examples and ideas in relation to "Stockholm syndrome" in humans (and I will be all ears to hear it!).

I will rather describe something that has been used very widely in current research related to stress and depression. It won't be nice so be prepared... This is most commonly done in laboratories with small mammals like rats and mice and is a test that's while still somewhat controversial, it's also quite generally accepted as a behavioral test for "learned helplessness".

I will save the details of how it's done exactly; the concept is that an individual who develops depression or PTSD-like symptoms due to a prior traumatic and unusual experience (or a series of them) often tends to develop a behavior at a later point of life when exposed to a new stress or a similar stress to what they had endured earlier, by giving up fighting, with indifference. So, this measures exactly what you are referring to, in the laboratory. Animals that had previously undergone drug addiction and periods of abstinence also often show this "learned helplessness" phenotype. I think you are not on a wrong track with your reasoning.

From human reality, I will say that based on what I've heard so far, most people tend to have more and more difficult times getting sober and getting back on track with increasing number of relapses, especially longer term, more serious relapses.

So I'm afraid there is a lot of truth in this. However, there are ways to overcome this, and the "secret" lies exactly in serious recovery work

NightsWatch

Great post haennie!

Someone who has relapsed over and over and starts to lose hope that they can get sober is a great illustration of learned helplessness. At some point, they may feel, "I tried so many times before and it didn't work. I'm never going to get sober!" They're like those dog that wouldn't jump out of an electrified wagon, even when they were finally given the opportunity to do so.

I think the good news in this is that what makes it so difficult for a recurring relapser is that it is essentially just a mental block. Because they no longer believe (on a very deep level) that they can do it, that would be the starting point of their recovery; they can be given information or encouragement and support to see that they CAN jump.

As for the Stockholm Syndrome - I can see a similarity of that in some alcoholics who don't want to give it up, no matter how much it has already destroyed their lives. Their desire for alcohol trumps everything else, including life itself.

Cow

I has the learn helplessness and ahedonia. So I pretty FUBAR. I not think is that easy to 'encourage' someone with this mental states. Personal for me, encouragements has little effect. Lot of time they actual have reverse effect, because it put in my face enormous gulf between what encourager is saying and what I experiencing. Is like we on other planets.

fini

I think the good news in this is that what makes it so difficult for a recurring relapser is that it is essentially just a mental block. Because they no longer believe (on a very deep level) that they can do it, that would be the starting point of their recovery; they can be given information or encouragement and support to see that they CAN jump.


for me, the concept of "just a mental block" is fraught with difficulty, when it's phrased like this especially.
the 'just' sounds so...well, little.
but it isn't.
i drank for over thirty years, and was absolutely convinced i was neither powerless nor helpless.
which is exactly why i tried numerous times to quit and stay that way. i kept trying, a gazillion times, because i was most definitely not helpless.
i had no belief that i couldn't do it; quite the opposite.
what i did have, however, was experience that i couldn't do it.

not sure exactly how that fits into the OP, just a comment re the learned helplessness i didn't have.

biminiblue

Once you accepted you were powerless over controlling your drinking, did you quit?

For drinkers, it seems to be a dissonance between reality and delusion. The alcohol does make clear thinking nearly impossible.

freshstart57

I drank for three or four decades too, and I was neither helpless nor powerless. I never really tried to control it, like taking a month off, or even a week. I knew that there was going to be only one way to control it and that was to quit completely and unconditionally.

So, three years ago I did that. I quit.

Believing that I was powerless or helpless would have totally messed with that, and I doubt I would be sober today. It was by finding that faith in myself that I was able to take full responsibility and absolute, permanent and unconditional control of my drinking.

biminiblue

We are saying the same thing.

I'm not a "powerless" cheerleader, freshstart. I Get that you have a successful strategy.

You decided to stop. If you had wanted to moderate, do you think it would have worked? I mean, you just woke up one day and said - I'm done. I get that. But you needed to be done because...? Because you maybe intuitively knew that one drink a day was pointless and silly? Obviously I don't know, it's just a thought. Unless you attempted moderation, how do you know if you were able to do that?

See, I tried moderation. It didn't work. It's much easier to not drink than to moderate. I am not happy about that but it is my reality.

We are saying the same thing.

Lawn mowing. Nail clippers.

caboblanco

i thought stockholm syndrome was when hostages grew an likeness and emotional attachment to their captures who were supposed to be the enemy..in not sure how it applies to this...i think heannie's response makes sense to me though...then again rats aren't humans..we have to give ourselves more credit

jaynie04

Actually, I wrote about Stockholm Syndrome a few months ago. It was in response to someone who was struggling and extolling the virtues of alcohol. They were speaking about how miserable they were…yet…..and it is the YET that is suggestive of SS.

"Stockholm Syndrome is the phenomenon in which captives have positive feelings towards their captors." "individual's response to trauma in becoming a victim". (wikipedia)

Posts that suggest that someone is still finding the positives in spite of mountains of evidence of harm are eerily reminiscent of Stockholm Syndrome. Yes, because of alcohol I have lost my job, my energy, my whatever, BUT, wine still helps me relax.

It is an irrational response that discounts primarily negative consequences and focuses instead on absence of trauma.

Yes these men have been holding me hostage in a basement for 6 months but yesterday they gave me ice cream.

Yes, I have been hungover and miserable for six months but yesterday I drank wine on the beach while the sun set.


It is perhaps easier to identify when the captor is a source outside of ourselves, but I believe we are just as capable of building our own dungeons and feeling helpless to escape and gratitude when our enemy tosses us a bone.

sugarbear1

state-dependent learning is more like it......

LBrain

alcohol is the enemy in this case

alcoholics surely have a likeness and emotional attachment to alcohol

alcoholics are the prisoners of alcohol - hostages

EndGameNYC

Human beings carry the additional burden of a "higher consciousness" which, in turn, enables us to deceive ourselves in thousands of different ways and in even the worst possible circumstances. This tendency for self-deception both enhances our ability to adapt and therefore survive the worst of all possible conditions, with the negative payoff being that we often don't see when our own house is burning to the ground. A rat in a burning house does not spend years debating whether or not it is beneficial to flee, invariably choosing the quickest and most efficient exit.

caboblanco

exactly..but I also think rats don't have the ability to consciously change their behavior..humans do..I realize that ability carries a burden also...then again I am not a rat..so I can't speak for them..not a literal rat anyway..

Nonsensical

A rat given access to a lever that self-administers a dopamine boost will stand on an electrified grid and die before abandoning the lever. I don't doubt our more advanced powers of self-deception, but the root cause of why alcohol sometimes feels like the solution to any problem lies deeper in the brain.

Aellyce

That's quite an exaggeration, Nons... But yes, the point is that addicts tend to seek out their drug of choice despite of risks and adverse consequences. Perhaps even "like" some of the adverse consequences.

fini

i had a moment of clarity where i understood myself as a drunk, instead of a person who kept doing a,b,c and d around drinking. when i understood it was 'me' and not just what i was doing.
that i was powerless over this, nah, i had to work that out later. took a couple of sober years. of which i have several now.
so yeah, knowing "OMG i'm a GD drunk!" was a reality i hadn't known in that way before, when i just knew i had a problem with alcohol.

regardless, no learned helplessness here
or yeah, i might very well have stopped trying.

what was YOUR experience relating to 'learned helplessness'?

EndGameNYC

If rats are unable to change their behaviors, at some point there would be no rats.

SoberHoopsFan

Because I always went back to drinking after stopping for short periods and resolving not to ever drink again, I eventually convinced myself that drinking was a fundamental part of who I was and what my existence was meant to be. I have learned that this was nonsense justification and pure AV, so that I could continue to get loaded whenever and wherever I wanted with less guilt. However, I am a person with hopes, dreams, fears, worries, desires, etc., separate and apart from consuming alcohol. I think what you are describing above is completely surrendering to one's AV. It is reversible by changing thought patterns in my opinion (although not easy), and not a syndrome