Stockholm syndrome
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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Haennie...I acted out by going out to clubs, listening to EDM music. On one occasion I was so high and drunk that I talked my way into guest DJing at a club in Las Vegas with some twenty year old name Afrojack. I had sycophants disguised as friends all around me reveling in my out of control behavior and disrespect for money.
Today I cannot listen to EDM music as it triggers cocaine thoughts and I have gone back to my Simon and Garfunkel, Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead and Dave Matthews roots.
Btw - I am forty now with a wife and two small children. But was a spiraling mess a year ago. I would also send emails during these states of mind too. Ugh!
SJ - my issue with AVRT was the disassociation with the AV. I relate more to an out of balance ego, which is a part of me vs. a reptilian part of my brain. This is the great thing about the variety of programs:-)
Today I cannot listen to EDM music as it triggers cocaine thoughts and I have gone back to my Simon and Garfunkel, Pink Floyd, Grateful Dead and Dave Matthews roots.
Btw - I am forty now with a wife and two small children. But was a spiraling mess a year ago. I would also send emails during these states of mind too. Ugh!
SJ - my issue with AVRT was the disassociation with the AV. I relate more to an out of balance ego, which is a part of me vs. a reptilian part of my brain. This is the great thing about the variety of programs:-)
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Originally Posted by EndGameNYC 
Ha!
My love of Steppenwolf was a sequel to what I identified with in Holden Caulfield in The Catcher In The Rye during my alienated and alienating youth. I was disappointed in each case with the characters' individual transformations or personal epiphanies.
I read both books at least one more time later on in life, and came to see that the characters' transformations, though not at all inevitable, were necessary in order to affirm and embrace the reality that life is worth living, and that a sense of meaning can only come from within.
My love of Steppenwolf was a sequel to what I identified with in Holden Caulfield in The Catcher In The Rye during my alienated and alienating youth. I was disappointed in each case with the characters' individual transformations or personal epiphanies.
I read both books at least one more time later on in life, and came to see that the characters' transformations, though not at all inevitable, were necessary in order to affirm and embrace the reality that life is worth living, and that a sense of meaning can only come from within.
It was interesting later to follow the progression of some of these people from my youth - definitely not all of us found our place in life, reasonable peace in the head, and a happiness within. I think they did not learn to use their personal characteristics to their advantage, they could not find ways to use their traits in transformative ways.
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I go through many decade of spiritual searchings and the existential angst. At end of it all, in grand scheme of universe, or even earth, I truly believe human lives is objectively unimportant. Is like Virginia Wolf's "Death of The Moth" --we just a fleeting filament of life. I know we get extra glob of neocortex that make us think we the sh*t, and we has subjective feeling of importance, superiority and meaningfulness over other life form. But is just delusion of our big fat brain. I think enslavement and torture of other species for our gain is height of human arrogance ...but that just me. 
And now for some kind word about rats:
And now for some kind word about rats:
In the new study, laboratory rats repeatedly freed their cage-mates from containers, even though there was no clear reward for doing so. The rodents didn't bother opening empty containers or those holding stuffed rats.
To the researchers' surprise, when presented with both a rat-holding container and a one containing chocolate — the rats' favorite snack — the rodents not only chose to open both containers, but also to share the treats they liberated. ~Inbal Ben-Ami Bartal, Jean Decety, Peggy Mason. Empathy and Pro-Social Behavior in Rats. Science, 9 December 2011
To the researchers' surprise, when presented with both a rat-holding container and a one containing chocolate — the rats' favorite snack — the rodents not only chose to open both containers, but also to share the treats they liberated. ~Inbal Ben-Ami Bartal, Jean Decety, Peggy Mason. Empathy and Pro-Social Behavior in Rats. Science, 9 December 2011
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I remember in rehab I had to write a letter to my addiction (alcohol), a 'Dear John' letter.
I'm thinking WTF? are these people serious? So I wrote one. I addressed it to Dick Yuengling
For some people this is a good exercise. Rehab uses the shotgun effect. Through everything at you, maybe one thing will make sense.
I'm thinking WTF? are these people serious? So I wrote one. I addressed it to Dick Yuengling
For some people this is a good exercise. Rehab uses the shotgun effect. Through everything at you, maybe one thing will make sense.
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Brain, you are cracking me up... And did "Dick Yuengling" respond to your letter? 
Cow - YES rats are absolutely fascinating creatures, and yes, very social.
On your note "I think enslavement and torture of other species for our gain is height of human arrogance". Well, we could get into the topic of what the human species has done and is doing to Earth and Nature... but let's be more specific to what you have mentioned. I think the best comment I can give you here is that Nature, and the Universe at large, is inherently structured with a lot of hierarchy not only in the living world but also in the non-living physical components of it. Things don't exist as isolated entities but are interconnected and interdependent. Human society is structured and hierarchical itself, and so are most communities in the animal kingdom within species, and between species. Live being consume each-other. It's not slavery but natural order - no living being would exist without this structure and interdependence. For me, if anything, the "sin" of man on Earth is not the use of artificially bred laboratory animals for his own curiosity and assumed purposes and similar small "selfish" creations, but the interference with natural order on a much larger scale. But if we really look at it, that grand interference also seems to be "normal" part of cycles that are probably inevitable in the history of Mankind, the Natural World, and the Universe. We perpetually create, destroy, and recreate ourselves. We tend to get emotional about all this from our limited point of views, but in fact it is Reality. This is my opinion, but won't get into it in more detail because I'm not sure it's a useful topic on SR...
As for existential angst: for me that dominated my youth (teens and early 20's) and like probably many others, I also searched for "meaning" in all sorts of places, from books to philosophy to spiritual systems and communities to elders with assumed great wisdom and life experience to science, and more. I still like all these things, but honestly, none of them has ever given me true satisfaction and a sense of serenity when I studied them in isolated ways. They actually tended to increase my existential angst because I was questioning everything and yet expected these questionable external realms to show me the Holy Grail. But I never gave up searching...
Where it has led me eventually are realizations that this type of seeking is a doomed exercise, at least for me. It's often more jumping from one obstacle to the next, actually. I can't find happiness in isolation and in a fragmented existence. Where I have finally found lots of it is connection, involvement, and interaction. The realization that I am part of the system just like everyone and everything else, not a detached "alien" individual looking at all of it from the inside of a bubble. Or more importantly, the realization that how I place myself into this giant reality is my choice. Of course I have a place in it by default, defined by what I am (human), what era I was born into, my natural attributes, etc.
What I do with all of this is entirely my own choice. So the right thing for me to do is accepting what I am, choosing wisely the "roles" that I can infuse with personal meaning so that they enrich my life, and when possible, trying to take it to a further destination. Again, for me the key is connection, the big picture. I emphasize "for me" because this strategy is something I've found working for me but I would not want to say it's for everyone. There are many ways of living a good life, the challenge is to find or create what is best for each or us.
So taking this back into the original context of the thread: I think part of the reason why these psychological conditions such as Stockholm Syndrome or addiction are so debilitating (besides physical effects) is because they force us into isolation and disconnection from the rest of life, and everything. This is why we desperately need help and support to be able to break out of these isolated, repetitive traps - into something that is an integration process.
OK I guess I'm out of this thread now, rambled enough
Cow - YES rats are absolutely fascinating creatures, and yes, very social.
On your note "I think enslavement and torture of other species for our gain is height of human arrogance". Well, we could get into the topic of what the human species has done and is doing to Earth and Nature... but let's be more specific to what you have mentioned. I think the best comment I can give you here is that Nature, and the Universe at large, is inherently structured with a lot of hierarchy not only in the living world but also in the non-living physical components of it. Things don't exist as isolated entities but are interconnected and interdependent. Human society is structured and hierarchical itself, and so are most communities in the animal kingdom within species, and between species. Live being consume each-other. It's not slavery but natural order - no living being would exist without this structure and interdependence. For me, if anything, the "sin" of man on Earth is not the use of artificially bred laboratory animals for his own curiosity and assumed purposes and similar small "selfish" creations, but the interference with natural order on a much larger scale. But if we really look at it, that grand interference also seems to be "normal" part of cycles that are probably inevitable in the history of Mankind, the Natural World, and the Universe. We perpetually create, destroy, and recreate ourselves. We tend to get emotional about all this from our limited point of views, but in fact it is Reality. This is my opinion, but won't get into it in more detail because I'm not sure it's a useful topic on SR...
As for existential angst: for me that dominated my youth (teens and early 20's) and like probably many others, I also searched for "meaning" in all sorts of places, from books to philosophy to spiritual systems and communities to elders with assumed great wisdom and life experience to science, and more. I still like all these things, but honestly, none of them has ever given me true satisfaction and a sense of serenity when I studied them in isolated ways. They actually tended to increase my existential angst because I was questioning everything and yet expected these questionable external realms to show me the Holy Grail. But I never gave up searching...
Where it has led me eventually are realizations that this type of seeking is a doomed exercise, at least for me. It's often more jumping from one obstacle to the next, actually. I can't find happiness in isolation and in a fragmented existence. Where I have finally found lots of it is connection, involvement, and interaction. The realization that I am part of the system just like everyone and everything else, not a detached "alien" individual looking at all of it from the inside of a bubble. Or more importantly, the realization that how I place myself into this giant reality is my choice. Of course I have a place in it by default, defined by what I am (human), what era I was born into, my natural attributes, etc.
What I do with all of this is entirely my own choice. So the right thing for me to do is accepting what I am, choosing wisely the "roles" that I can infuse with personal meaning so that they enrich my life, and when possible, trying to take it to a further destination. Again, for me the key is connection, the big picture. I emphasize "for me" because this strategy is something I've found working for me but I would not want to say it's for everyone. There are many ways of living a good life, the challenge is to find or create what is best for each or us.
So taking this back into the original context of the thread: I think part of the reason why these psychological conditions such as Stockholm Syndrome or addiction are so debilitating (besides physical effects) is because they force us into isolation and disconnection from the rest of life, and everything. This is why we desperately need help and support to be able to break out of these isolated, repetitive traps - into something that is an integration process.
OK I guess I'm out of this thread now, rambled enough
EndGame
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Nice post, haennie.
Much like you, and often in similar ways, I did a great deal of searching when I was younger, and my efforts often ended in disappointment. The introduction of huge amounts of alcohol only fueled my disappointment and my cynicism, while adding layers of romanticized angst along the lines of Hemmingway, J.D. Salinger and Jean-Paul Sartre. I majored in philosophy with a minor in classical literature. My early enthusiasm for these subject areas later turned to despair, having arrived at a place where I believed I'd learned everything there is to learn, and concluding that the world was basically a cruel, harsh and unforgiving place that only forced people to do the horrible things they do.
It was only much later, when I made a commitment to searching itself, and not finding what I thought I was looking for, that things started to turn for me. When I look back at all my earlier studies, the pictures in my mind send me very different messages and provoke new sets of feelings of which I was not aware at the time.
Much like you, and often in similar ways, I did a great deal of searching when I was younger, and my efforts often ended in disappointment. The introduction of huge amounts of alcohol only fueled my disappointment and my cynicism, while adding layers of romanticized angst along the lines of Hemmingway, J.D. Salinger and Jean-Paul Sartre. I majored in philosophy with a minor in classical literature. My early enthusiasm for these subject areas later turned to despair, having arrived at a place where I believed I'd learned everything there is to learn, and concluding that the world was basically a cruel, harsh and unforgiving place that only forced people to do the horrible things they do.
It was only much later, when I made a commitment to searching itself, and not finding what I thought I was looking for, that things started to turn for me. When I look back at all my earlier studies, the pictures in my mind send me very different messages and provoke new sets of feelings of which I was not aware at the time.
Woe is Moo.
Join Date: Aug 2013
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Haennie, what is forum for if not rambling! Ramble on'!
I of course not disputing reality of food chain, and it pretty freaking vicious. But is only human who premeditate to enslave, experiment on, torture and kill other species for they own gain, for reason other than food/survival. ...Although I sure lot of people in my industry think animal testing mascara and shampoos IS survival.
I of course not disputing reality of food chain, and it pretty freaking vicious. But is only human who premeditate to enslave, experiment on, torture and kill other species for they own gain, for reason other than food/survival. ...Although I sure lot of people in my industry think animal testing mascara and shampoos IS survival.
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holy cow! cow,
So it would not be in our own sense a bad thing if aliens from a far advanced planet were to pick up some humans to use for experimentation then. It's very much their absolute right to do so if we thinks it okay to experiment on monkeys.
So it would not be in our own sense a bad thing if aliens from a far advanced planet were to pick up some humans to use for experimentation then. It's very much their absolute right to do so if we thinks it okay to experiment on monkeys.
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Originally Posted by EndGameNYC
If rats are unable to change their behaviors, at some point there would be no rats.
don't believe human consciousness ..whether regular or higher consciousness can be directly compared to a rat. some may say that animals have less ego..or actually higher(more pure) consciousness...so I guess what i am talking about here is critical an analytical thought? any thoughts lol?
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Brian and Cow - I think I would volunteer for such an experiment. I have experimented so much in my life with all sorts of creatures from viruses, plants, bacteria, cells, rodents... why not switch roles once! That would be quite the Grand Unique Experience! But it would only be interesting for me if the study was conducted somewhere in outer space, or at least I could interact with the Aliens somehow. And I would want to keep my consciousness throughout otherwise what's the fun!
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Haennie, That very brave and fair of you! But I sorry, Alien would be too advance to understand you pathetic attempts at interaction, perhaps much like when you look at rodent and it maybe have all kind of thought and emotion going on, but you just perceive some squeakings and twitchy face. Knowing you though, you probable find way to has "Helen Keller" moment with them. Good luck!
Knowing you though, you probable find way to has "Helen Keller" moment with them. Good luck! 
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I also escort spider outside. I even will fish struggling fruit fly out my juice and flick him out door. I just think, he has as much right to his existence today as I. And it maybe all he getting. It kind of freak me out people who just immediate stomp on spider or beetle or ant with no thought that is snuffing out life. I know most human consider these to be so lowly as to no even qualify as life, but even if you no concern that they living thing, these creature is still symbiotic and necessary to us. Has some respects.
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Right on, Cow. I don't like to kill ants but sometimes it's frustrating because they get all over the cats' food plates if I leave them out... but then I realize, I could've avoided that by washing the plates right after they finished. So now, we put the plates outside and let the ants finish the food and leave, instead of washing them down the drain to die.
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