Ken33xx

Right.

If your program works it's all good. I try to avoid arguing with members about AA.

I'm more interested in how my life runs outside the rooms than sounding good at meetings.

RobbyRobot

The Alcoholics Anonymous book is a collective of testimonials and suggestions defining alcoholism as an illness of mind, body, and spirit. It as well offers a permanent life-long solution for that same defined illness. It is really relevant only for those who embrace the illness as suggested to expect the solution to be practical in their lives. AA defined alcoholism and AA defined solution are two faces of the same coin, as it were. This relationship is irrevocable if one expects success with AA, imo.

Written by recovered drunks walking their own talk, they example their success by suggesting others take certain steps to ensure both individual as well as collective success for AA. They collectively claim and promise much in the pages of their book. As it has turned out, their claims and promises have come true for me for decades now and still going strong. Their book, as written, is in many ways now my book too. Awesome.

I don't believe word for word much of anything, let alone what some sober drunks have put together. Nonetheless, I believe enough of the BB to have success in sobriety, and this is really the desired result intended. I doubt the point of the writings is about anything else except living sober and free in spite of chronic alcoholism, and offering to others the same solution for the same problem.

Boleo

I don't believe in the book because some good old-timers told me to. I don't believe in the book because I think Bill W was some kind of a saint. I don't believe in the book because I envy those who can recite from it like a parrot. - I believe in the book because there are parts of it that match my experience exactly as I lived it (even 75 years later). No other book has given me that kind of "Deja Vu" experience.

Music

I don't disagree with anything in the first 164 pages of the Big Book. The reason the Big Book is said to be "suggestive only" is to try to avoid just exactly what's going on here. Arguing over whether or not the people who wrote the book knew what they were talking about. It's also suggested that when one jumps out of a perfectly good airplane, you might consider pulling the ripcord at some point. I've known alcoholics that would even argue with that. I came to AA as a self-centered, self-righteous drunk. I won't argue that some may think that way about me now but I've found that if I keep a completely open mind about being alcoholic, or that alcoholism is a disease that can kill me, something really important might just blow right through. I came to AA off the street, did what I was told by the people I hung with even though some of what I was told I had a problem with. I'm sober today because I continue to do what they told me and I don't tolerate people who try to change the Big Book or Alcoholics Anonymous. I have two Bibles today. The Holy one and the AA one.

Boleo

So do I but we aren't supposed to interfere with Lemmings running towards the ocean.

Nuudawn

Although not currently active in AA (still deliberating on that), I am very much of the opinion that addiction is very much an "I" illness. For me, it is extreme self absorption and self pity. I am lost in my own world where my need to feed takes precedence. I am not connected with the world in an intimate and engaging way. Despite an entire world around me..I might as well be on a deserted island with a bottle.

Metaphorically, when in active addiction, I am on a deserted island with a bottle.

Soberpotamus

There are no straight up answers to these questions. There are going to be so many differing opinions.

I see addiction as my root problem. Am I also selfish? Sure I am. And all humans have that capacity. Is my selfishness off the charts worse than a non-addict? I'll bet I can find others who are more and less selfish than me. Guess the test designed to measure that would be interesting.

Did I behave selfishly as an alcoholic? Absolutely. Did I behave that way because I'm a horribly selfish human being? No, not really. I behaved that way because I'm addicted to alcohol. And in choosing to drink the alcohol, I pretty much forfeited my ability and right as a human to modify my behaviors and behave in the ways that are deemed morally acceptable by society.

awuh1

I believe the book means exactly what it says. When it says that it is meant to be suggestive only, it means it "is meant to be suggestive only". Nothing more, nothing less.

Perhaps if you are privy to "the reason" these words are truly meant to convey something quite different than their commonly accepted meaning, you could share that with us Music? Perhaps it was a personnel conversation with Bill, or something you can reference which he wrote?

Music

Looks like we have a problem here, maybe a little resentment. I'm not going to play with you. Simply put, I don't want to die when jumping out of a plane, so I pull the ripcord. I work the steps so I can stay sober. Pretty simple to me. In AA who I know doesn't count as much as who I listen to. I guess common sense just ain't all that common. In AA, a suggestion is a subtle command. Do what the book says or be refunded all that misery.

awuh1

Actually no. There is no problem here. It's clear you wish to change the meaning of the book, but the word suggestion, still means suggestion. It does not mean "subtle command".

Just as I thought, there is no reason to believe otherwise. No subsequent words from Bill W. about what he "really meant" which might lead us to believe something other than what was written.

The OP would seem to be speaking to the rigidity of some members. This rigidity is all the more problematic when it applies to personal interpretations of the book which fly in the face of commonly accepted meaning.

Gottalife

I must be sitting somewhere between Awuh1 and Music. It seems to me the book is quite contradictory at times. It is full of musts and imperatives which seem to refer, in large part, to what the authors found they had to do in order to recover.

They say half measures availed them nothing, but I dont think there is an outright statement that half measures will avail the reader nothing. Instead they beg the reader to be fearless and thorough from the very start.

The authors do no tell the reader that he is selfish, they describe selishness and self centredness as being the root of their problem.

The only assumption made in the book is that the reader wants to quit.

From their experience came the suggested program of action. There is nothing compulsory about it, it is only a suggestion, but the authors do explain there own experience in trying to find easier softer ways. It didn't work for them, but they don't say it won't work for you.

We are left to draw our own conclusions in the light of our experience and what we see around us. My conclusion is that the Big Book, which might have been written in chinese for all I understood on the first reading, now reflects my experience pretty well. I have found it necessary and highly effective to follow the suggestions. In effect those suggestions became musts for me in the same way they were musts for the authors.

Occasionally I meet someone else who does their best to follow those suggestions and they usually get similar results. And I meet plenty who only want to follow some of the suggestions and I get to see what happens there.

MIRecovery

It is not how I view newcomers it is how I view my self. I view the big book as an instruction Manuel for successful sobriety

RobbyRobot

I'm of the opinion AA recovery is not best exampled as jumping out of a parachute and pulling the ripcord. I work the steps not to stay sober, but to live with my sobriety as a free man. AA offers a spiritual solution that goes well beyond what staying sober requires, yeah?

I'm also of the opinion a suggestion in AA is as claimed - a suggestion. Your claim of an AA suggestion being actually a subtle command based on your not wanting to die when jumping out of planes because you think its a subtle command to pull a ripcord is your own business, but your not speaking for me as a member of AA with your generalization.

As for misery be refunded, how does that happen if a guy isn't following the book's suggestion? Perhaps you mean not following the book has no payoff? A refund of misery suggests the misery was at some point relieved. I suppose a guy can quit on the suggestions of the book anytime they choose and be worse off then when they started, but this has nothing to do with being an example of the book being about subtle commands.

Gottalife

Sometimes I hear the 12 steps being compared to the recipe for a cake. The main difference is that most of the chefs in the alcoholic kitchen will not be told anything, especially about recipes and making this cake. It is my understanding that original drafts of the big book were somewhat more forceful, and were changed to suggestion for this reason. An alcoholic doesn't like to be told anything.

But, even if "subtle command" is too strong a term, the suggestions are made with a certain amount of force and credibility. Many times these chefs tried to short cut the recipe and ended up unable to produce the cake. But when they followed the suggested recipe voila! a cake just like the picture.

The force comes from the total absence of any suggestion that this particular cake can be made any other way. Other options are not presented.

RobbyRobot

Certainly all the suggestions of the book are informed and backed by the contributors success with AA sobriety. I'm still of a mind though that although active drinking alcoholics don't like being told what for, sober and happy recovered/recovering alcoholics don't mind be told things directly or as a suggestion either way.

Gottalife

I agree. I certainly don't mind a direct approach. Even if I don't like it, I will try to consider it with an open mind. Perhaps a symptom of recovery is we no longer react with a belligerent "don't tell ME what to do!"

miamifella

It is interesting that the Big Book is a lot less dogmatic than AA itself. And a lot of people try to paint it as more black and white than it really is. The authors were smart enough to realize that there are few or no absolutes in life and gracefully avoided falling into the trap of all-or-nothing thinking.

However, that kind of thinking is part of our pathology as addicts, so we try to make the gray areas of the BB less gray. Usually, as time goes on, we mature in recovery we lose the dogmatism.

Johno1967

I'm not in AA but one of the key reasons for my years of alcohol abuse, serial screw ups and eventual alcoholism was the fact that I was inherently selfish and self centered while I thought I cared about others judging by my conduct over the years where booze was concerned I obviously did not.
I don't look at another alcoholic as a selfish person and they certainly don't deserve their troubles but they are largely responsible for them. What I do see is a disease that has a medical, psychological and spiritual dimension and thus responds to a range of therapies. I feel genuine concern and empathy for a fellow alcoholic. I want to help that person and tell them there is a way out.
Yes I read the BB and have read it 4 times since picking it up 20 months ago. I don't just read the BB I read a lot of other recovery books as well but I will say the contents are honest, relevant and consistent with my experience and by applying the principles and simple practices suggested ( not dictated ) I have remained sober and (dare I say it) happy ( helluva lot happier than before).
Many if not all of the promises described in the BB have come true in varying degrees for me.
I was a selfish, self centered, belligerent and petulant liar when I hit rock bottom. I barely know that person now and shudder when I think of him. With little more than a willingness to admit, accept and surrender and keep an open mind I stopped drinking, lying and being a drunken sociopath.
It's ironic but surrender was they key to success.

RecklessEric

I really don't wish to offend anybody, but the exchanges here sound like ones that Christians would get into about the bible.
Imo, the op should take or leave the book.Take what s/he gets from it. Or disregard it.
There's millions of books on addiction out there.

soberlicious

yeah...and
Women are so emotional.
Priests are child molesters.
Black people like watermelon.
Asians are good at math.

Sweeping generalizations are what create harmful stereotypes.