lovesymphony

..And is this what steppers believe:

page 62:

Selfishness-self centeredness! That, we think, is the root of our troubles.

....We invariably find that at some time in our past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt. So, our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making.
They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self will run riot.''

Is this how newcomers to AA are viewed, as selfish and deserving of the problems in their lives? Or am I misnderstanding this?

Also, is The Big Book usually taken as being inerrant? or nessesary to believe for recovery? Are the 12 steps without the Big Book enough?

Whew, enough questions for now

Thanks!!

RecklessEric

I'm a member of AA.
I use it for meetings to listen to others to remind me of why I need to stay sober.
I've read the BB and don"t read it anymore.
There are people who can quote it with the page number.
And good luck to them. Whatever works.

Dee74

I'm not in AA but I don't think that's a particularly unfair description of me as a drinker.

If anyone does find offense... then AA may not be for you?

Luckily there's many alternatives

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...formation.html

I'd also recommend you visit the Secular Connections forum if you think you may benefit from a non 12 step approach.

D

jdooner

I identify with the alcoholic (I would prefer addict vs alcoholic actually) in the BB (mostly not 100pct though) so I identify with the solution. I believe my problem was a lack of a spiritual connection.

I did not at first. I had many members here try to persuade me to rational Recovery, which I tried. Perhaps I did not give it a fair shot. But I found AAs solution to work best for me.

I do believe AAs solution is about living the steps. I feel there is much misinformation in the meetings. many of the AA slogans cliches almost pushed me out in the beginning. But then I did not want to accept aA either.

Eddiebuckle

There are as many answers to your question as there are members of AA. My take:

Self centeredness is not necessarily what you think at first glance. The subtler form exists in everyone, such as from the "selfless" who outwardly do nothing but sacrifice but inwardly continuously pat themselves on the back for their piety.

Where I find myself today is the result of the sum of all my choices along the way, some good, some terrible. What troubles I have are either from errors or an inability to adjust and accept reality. I am handicapped, and in recovery I have found that much of my suffering related to the handicap was how I perceived it and allowed it to limit my world.

The Big Book was meant to be suggestive only, and its authors admitted that they knew only a little.

CAPTAINZING2000

For those that have taken money for their families food utility bills etc. to buy alcohol and drugs, for those that never showed up to family functions because they were out drinking .

Perhaps, this doesn't apply to everyone.

Jsober

The selfishness did and does apply to me. I spent most of my time worrying about me and taking actions to make myself happy. With all the people in the world and the bigger picture I would say this is out of whack and does lead to suffering. The selfishishness did define me 100 percent when I was drinking/drunk. I really only cared about feeling good and wasn't too concerned about much else.
Is this quality only found in alcoholics? No way, it's encouraged here in the states. But I do think it is an issue for an alcoholic to look at and work on if nothing else for some relief and piece of mind. It's hard work worrying about oneself all day, trust me!

ScottFromWI

Always is a pretty strong term, and "AA manbers" is a broad generalization. Do some believe the big book word for word/literally? Probably. It really should have no bearing on your recovery though.

awuh1

There are some things in the book that I relate to more than others. Some things that I agree with more than others. There are things that I have come to understand only with time sober and the perspective it and certain actions have furnished.

The book was mostly written by a guy with less than 5 years sober. Even so, there was a group of them (about 100) who had found a solution to the problem. This small group is now likely in the millions, and has spread worldwide.

As already pointed out, the text says "we know only a little". It also says that the book "is meant to be suggestive only".

I think the success of AA is, in no small part, due to the open mindedness and tolerance of those individuals.

My suggestion to you is to keep a truly open mind and focus on what works for you and not on what you might now take issue with. IMO it's more productive to focus on what might be of benefit, particularly in the beginning.

Jfanagle

What AA "is like" is an unanswerable question on its face. The individual groups of AA are autonomous from each other by design. The Big Book is a series of suggestions and the steps themselves are just that, suggestions. The "program" of AA is based on the experience of those 100 men and 1 woman who were the contributors to the book.

If anyone has a genuine desire to discover what AA is about and how it MAY serve a purpose in their efforts to achieve sobriety then as far as I know that requires that the person attend some meetings and ask some questions and read the book.

I have been a member of AA for the last 15 years of my sober life. It did for me what I couldn't do for myself. I have watched hundreds and hundreds of others attend and fail to maintain or even achieve sobriety using AA as a vehicle. I also know a few sober alcoholics who attended AA then went elsewhere or in a few cases nowhere else and they remain sober according to what they tell me and what I think I know.

AA is one way to get sober, if I am asked, I say it works, because that is how I got and stay sober. If you ask someone who got sober in another manner then they will tell you that is a great way to achieve sobriety. I stopped explaining AA to anyone who doesn't attend the meetings as they have no real frame of reference and how in the world can you explain a fellowship and what it believes when there are no rules?

I honor all people who honor all people,

Jon

Boleo

I agree. Self-centeredness exists in everyone to some degree. I did not think of myself as self-centered when I first started attending AA. But then I began to see where I let alcohol isolate me from both my external relationships as well as my internal emotions.

It was not so much a matter of me placing my self first, as it was not letting anyone or anything stand between me and my drinking. I would lie to protect my drinking. I would break promises to protect my drinking. I would fail to meet my obligations and commitments to make more room in my life for more drinking.

Is that necessarily selfish behavior? Maybe not. But it certainly is evidence of unhealthy priorities. Not to mention that my victim mentality kept me trapped in self-absorbed morbid reflection.

Tamerua

To me it means that I thought about myself a lot and my actions showed that. I was (still am) fiercely independent, because I don't trust anyone and don't want to let anyone in. But there is no connection with other people and it is a form of self pity. It is very individualized, everyone is very different but somewhat the same. Through the program and the steps, we learn to be more giving of ourselves and take ownership.

I'm rambling so I will leave it at that.

Gottalife

I was pretty much reduced to living on instinct when I came into AA. I can't think of a more self centred way to live, but I didn't think so at the time. That may have been because I had long lost touch with reality and my alcoholic life was the only normal one, for me.

That doesn't square very well with what was recorded in my medical file, where they use terms even less complimentary than the Book.

Fraser McDonald, superintendant of one our our largest mental institutions once wrote a pieace on the 12 steps. In it he wrote the program was an excellent way to turn "greedy self lovers into generous other lovers" Greedy self lover? Me? Well, actually, yes this was true I later discovered. Shudder! It was not a truth I willingly faced.

I discovered all of this in the course of learning to live the 12 steps. (Taking the steps or practicing the program as it is sometimes called). This seems to work for nearly everyone I know who has tried it.

Less successful are those that try to use the fellowship as a vehicle. In practice, the AA fellowship has a poor record in getting people sober, where as in my experience, the AA program suceeds most of the time.

PurpleKnight

I don't attend AA and haven't read the BB, but this definition hits the nail on the head, I do think it was all my own making, who else lifting the glass for me to drink, who was forcing me to drink, no one was involved in my drinking other than myself, whether consciously, unconsciously or under the influence of alcohol and my addiction, it all boiled down to nobody else was doing the drinking other than me.

. . . and so the troubles and consequences of my actions it follows where of my own making too, whether it be health, money, job performance etc

I guess though it actually brings some reassurance to the picture also, think of the positives rather than it just being a character attack, because if drinking was simply of our own making then it also means Sobriety can be of our own making too, that brings some relief to those that worry they just can't do it or there are too many hurdles/obstacles in the way, or we're all just destined to have a problem for ever more.

If we had the power to do the drinking, then we also have the power to stop the drinking!!

afloatsober

Would you call drinking for 37 years of your life to the exclusion of practically every other priority including wife, kids and family selfish?
If not, then i am not selfish!!!!!!.
And hooray for that
G

KeyHeart

Well, yes, this AAer believes that.

soberlicious

I don't think being self-centered is what caused me to become addicted to alcohol. I think it's the other way around. Using substances leads to impaired judgement, poor choices, impulsivity. The nature of being addicted means that the high comes first. My crippling depression was also a by product of the addiction, and depression kept me very centered on myself. My mental state was such that I was unable to really think about others in any real significant way. I met my responsibilities for awhile at the bare minimum, but at the worst of times it felt just like me...alone in the abyss...my thoughts were basically on me, myself, and I in a big black vortex. Good news is, when I quit drinking, my mind was clear to function better as a productive member of my own life, making it easier to find the right balance between self and others.

Yes, many AA members do believe what you quoted. Some believe it to the letter. Do I believe that many of my problems were of my own making? Well, yeah. Drinking was of my own doing, which makes the resulting problems my responsibility by extension. I do not believe that I was addicted to alcohol because I am fundamentally defective though. I was addicted to alcohol because I drank it. Copious amounts. Every day. For years.

I believe that a hyper focus on ones "character defects" is also a form of self-centeredness. If you always think about how good you are, you're focused on yourself, but by the same token, if you are always thinking/talking about how defective and broken you are, you're also focused on yourself.

tomsteve

good questions.

yes, selfish and self centeredness existed in my terribly as a result of self will run riot.
I don't view newcomers like that. I don't view them as deserving of the problems in their lives. I view them the best I can as sick people wanting help.

there are a couple things in the BB I don't agree with.

sugarbear1

self centered self loathing describes my alcoholism

IOAA2

I feel it is more correct than I ever was regarding my drinking. That thinking became more clear when I started to get honest with myself about my drinking and continues today.

BE WELL