Boleo

Guess who else "doesn't like to be told anything"?

Ken33xx

How members work their program is fine by me and I sometimes pickup useful tips.

However, meetings can be annoying when there is an undercurrent of crosstalk by members who take offense at those who don't work the program the "right way."

Usually, if I find a meeting tends to be dominated by a strict interpretation of the BB I'll go elsewhere.

soberlicious

um....I don't know...yo mama?

Aw. Seriously thanks for responding. I like you too, Boleo. I have a soft spot for crusty old curmudgeons. I sincerely mean that. I'm weird like that. Xo

My comment was about harmful stereotyping of those who are addicted. I think it is a serious roadblock to quitting.

neferkamichael

The problem is not with AA the organization. Please remember that when you are in an AA meeting you are still in a room full of drunks, and we all know where that leads us. Plenty of people I met in AA seemed to think that because they had more days of sobriety than me, they had the right to order me around. The fundamental problem I have with most programs is the idea that I have to have a high power, and give that higher power credit for doing right but blame myself for what I do wrong. I, yes me stopped drinking, and I, yes me pat myself on the back for doing it. Rootin for everyone.

lovesymphony

Grr I've written two responses but my phone keeps losing its signal before I can post so for now I'll just say a brief thankyou to everyone for posting and for disagreeing without getting out of control. I know not all members will agree on everything but was wondering to what extent differences of opinion would go on specific things.

Carlotta

Exactly! and this is why I am very picky about which meetings I attend.
I have been to some which I felt were unhealthy and did not come back, one was so ridiculously stereotypically toxic that I actually mentioned it on SR. I had a good laugh about my experience. I was like: Whoa I finally found THAT group every disgruntled person who hates AA talks about.
Some groups are awesome and others get dominated by toxic people and the groups dynamics reflect it.

adee

My experience only here, as I consider AA as a fairly variable fellowship. For one, in my experience the message to newcomers is almost universally a very simple: keep coming back. When newcomers are at meetings, the meeting often instantly re-gears to sharing experiences that will help that person, that day, stay sober. It is one of the things I love most about AA, that focus that the newcomer is the most important person in the room. As a newcomer myself, what I found was anything BUT judgment - I found support and acceptance.

Quoting individual passages like that kind of takes it out of context of the entire program, I think. Yes a critical part of my program has been to see where I have been at fault, to see where my selfishness has caused problems in my life, but it is part of a broader road of recovery that involves making right what I can, and accepting and forgiving myself for what I can't - moving towards self love rather than constant recrimination and self hatred. So to me, while that passage sounds negative, it was part of the most freeing and important step for me and I'm grateful for the hard truths I had to face in my fourth and fifth step, and will continue to have to face in my 10th step. For me, the transformative power of AA in my life is rooted in two things: one - finding and relying on a power greater than myself for the first time in my adult life and finally leaving behind the crippling need to control the uncontrollable in my life, and second - attempting to transform my life from a completely self centered existence into a life that serves others (not just in AA, but my family, my community, my job etc). This is a massive work in progress (on both counts) but it is also where I see the change that I couldn't not engineer on my own despite years and years of trying.

My opinion as well - the big book is not the bible. AA is not a religion. Yes some people will treat it as such and I have no control over that. I have found truth and inspiration in that book and it is working for me, but you will find as many opinions on that book as there are words in it and that is another thing I love about AA.

desypete

when i go to aa meetings the people i like around me are the ones who dont preach or try to ram there way at me,

the book thumpers are people i avoid, the god pushers are also people i leave a wide birth to
so what people are left in aa ?
there the people who sit and listen and help if they can, they have learned this new way to living and show it by there actions,
they have no opinions or if they do they just keep them to themselves lol there amazing smart people, they might well belive in a god and the book for there answers but they never preach about it like its a must do thing

like i said there the ones who have really worked the program into there lives and they simpley dont care what anyone believes so long as there sat at an aa meeting sober for today and willing to help others anything else doesn't matter to them

how do you get this level of peace in you life ? thats the peace i am working hard on for me
the day i can read a post on here and smile about it even if it offends me will be the day i know i am living the real life
and believe it or not even now i am getting used to these types of posts were the need to be right or wrong takes over in people posts

in truth it doesn't matter
are you sober today ? if so then well done and keep on coming back

Boleo

My comment was about the common stereotype of those who are addicted. I think they all have a serious blindspot when it comes to quitting. Delusional thinking.

STUDENT: "What part of man's thinking is delusional?"

SRI NISARGADATTA MAHARA: "All of it!"

Grungehead

The BB is a suggested way to recover from Alcoholism. I went there seeking a solution for my Alcoholism. Why in the world would I not take the suggestions for the solution to the problem I went to AA for in the first place? I don't have to agree word for word with the BB to still take the suggestions given in the book. If I follow those suggestions and I don't get the results promised then I move on to try and find another way to stay sober.

But how would I know if it works or not if I don't follow the suggestions as they are laid out? That's like putting together a piece of furniture without using the instruction manual and then being upset that when I am done it's leaning to one side and I have extra parts left over.

My advice would be to read the book with an open mind. When you get to the end of page 164 decide whether or not you think the laid out program of recovery is for you or not. If you can't "get on board" with it move on to something else. If you can get on board then it's simple -- follow the instructions.

Soberpotamus

After having read it through a couple of times, I have to say that I agree! And I am still fairly new in recovery at 460 days. A lot of my confusion and dissatisfaction comes from actual meetings when I see and here the things that I don't feel line up with the book. It is easy to say... Well just ignore it... But for someone new to AA, that's hard. Especially when I'm treated like a drunk moron who knows nothing (though I've read the book multiple times and I have an exceptionally detailed memory), and am expected to be on the brink of a relapse disaster (which I'm not). I'm also solidly and very thoughtfully agnostic atheist, and if this is ever discovered, that's a whole other can of worms. Lol. So these days I prefer to sit my butt at home and just study the book myself. Would like to mingle with others but it's just too complicated and painful. Maybe that will change when I'm further along. It's ironic that I protect my sobriety by not going to AA meetings anymore. Sent from my iPhone using SoberRecovery

Boleo

After having read it through a couple of dozen times on my own, I still was clueless as to what principles and promises were. I had to have an "experience" with them before they became truly meaningful to me.

Even now, after having read the book hundreds of times (some chapters thousands of times) I still find hidden nuggets of meaning when reading in a group environment. It all comes down to where I am at in the steps at the time.

soberlicious

Tell me more please. Beyond the anecdotal, how have you come to this conclusion about all those addicted?

lovesymphony

pg. 62: Above everything we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must or it kills us! ...There often seems no way of ENTIRELY getting rid of self without His (God's) aid.''

IMO people never entirely get rid of their own selfish desires, only some of them. It was pages 60 thru 63 that scared me away from AA the first time. I was already discovering I had a guilt complex and just getting out of an abusive marriage. Through counseling, I was trying NOT to be so hard on myself. I already felt lower than dirt and reading this, taking it as seriously as I could, I noticed I was feeling more guilt, and worse about myself and every move I made every day. The group seemed to encourage this self-sabotage and someone even told me I kept ending up with controlling men because I was manipulative....After knowing me for five minutes!

After a good year of counselling for abusive relationships I learned to read people better, stop trusting so quickly, and pick up on red flags from people. Everyone. I went back to AA and found the right people to talk to, ignored the judgers and control freaks, and they helped me stop drinking for five days so I could at least find work. With a job I was a functional drinker, still trying to quit. But I left AA for various reasons again though I feel I would be dead without the aid I received there.

I have mixed feelings about AA. If you talk to the right people and find a nonjudmental group who makes the new alcoholic the most important person in the room, it can be a godsend.
With the wrong people it could be destructive.

lovesymphony

pg. 62: Above everything we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must or it kills us! ...There often seems no way of ENTIRELY getting rid of self without His (God's) aid.''

IMO people never entirely get rid of their own selfish desires, only some of them. It was pages 60 thru 63 that scared me away from AA the first time. I was already discovering I had a guilt complex and just getting out of an abusive marriage. Through counseling, I was trying NOT to be so hard on myself. I already felt lower than dirt and reading this, taking it as seriously as I could, I noticed I was feeling more guilt, and worse about myself and every move I made every day. The group seemed to encourage this self-sabotage and someone even told me I kept ending up with controlling men because I was manipulative....After knowing me for five minutes!

After a good year of counselling for abusive relationships I learned to read people better, stop trusting so quickly, and pick up on red flags from people. Everyone. I went back to AA and found the right people to talk to, ignored the judgers and control freaks, and they helped me stop drinking for five days so I could at least find work. With a job I was a functional drinker, still trying to quit. But I left AA for various reasons again though I feel I would be dead without the aid I received there.

I have mixed feelings about AA. If you talk to the right people and find a nonjudmental group who makes the new alcoholic the most important person in the room, it can be a life saver.
With the wrong people it could be destructive.

lovesymphony

I think these pages just really bother me because if someone is down and out with low self esteem already, it can be unhealthy to find a group of people who think badly of you before they even know you. I feel like the message of the Book is ''You are bad! Bad for being sad...That's self pity, and self pity makes you drink. Bad for anger at others...You put yourself in a postion to be hurt. It's your fault. Bad for trying to help others...It was really for you're own satisfaction.''

That's the message I got when I read the Big Book and it doesn't help someone in an abusive relationship, or a drunk who already hates themself to get the same message IMHO. I'm glad to see a lot of steppers don't take it that way. That is what I got from reading it, though...and got from some members.

Soberpotamus

Lovesymphony, I can definitely see your points there. I've felt similar in AA groups and continuing care. But I think that's a perspective, and one that is misconstrued by some rather unhealthy types. A kernel of truth there, but the ways of dealing with it vary because recovery is subjective.

Also, I think women are inherently affected differently (and thus probably approach recovery differently) by addiction. I know this isn't a popular idea to have among 12 steppers. For this reason, I've tried Women For Sobriety on my 2nd attempt at sobriety, and I later bought Stephanie Covington's 12 Step book and workbook. Her approach to the steps is surprisingly neutral and I feel very good about working the steps this way. She explains how women come into recovery already feeling powerless and low, and how to approach Step 1 from a healthier (and much more palatable) perspective.

awuh1

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovesymphony

IMO people never entirely get rid of their own selfish desires, only some of them.

I agree.

I don't think these 3 pages are attempting to suggest that a person can get rid of selfish desires. That would be well near impossible. I think what it is saying is that the selfish desires should not be the primary basis for decisions.

Perhaps your problem starts with this sentence... "The first requirement is that we be convinced that a life run on self will can hardly be a success".

The operative phrase is "run on", as in, decide-to-behave-based-upon.

I think what those pages have to do with is the basis for making important decisions. Selfish self serving motives, or something greater than self?

The pages are not talking so much about desire's, as they are about different principles to guide our behavior.

miamifella

I sometimes think that meetings are better for people who have some time under their belt. AA does not offer much assistance for dealing with the urge which is what the newbie needs. (Or at least I did.)

I know that I and others tried to do it the AA way, through prayer, before we had anything to pray to. I think we would have done better just finding a friend we could talk to with complete openness and honesty. (And I think that even the BB would agree with that.)

Mountainmanbob

been attending AA meetings for a long time
the Big Book is one of the best books written in regards to understanding alcoholism
I would consider it a must read for anyone wishing to get and stay sober
do I agree with everything written in the AA Big Book
a simple answer here will do -- no

one example of many
"having had a Spiritual awaking as the result of working these Steps"
I think that a Spiritual awaking is the work of God and God only (Holy Sprit)
sure many may have this occur around the same time as working the Steps
but - not as a result of working the Steps

some who work the Steps over and over yet again still never have a Spiritual awaking
as proven and witnessed in many an AA meeting

MM