Gottalife

I'm not sure where you are coming for with this DP. On the one hand you work the steps in your own way and stay sober, but countless others who work the steps a different way end up drunk?

This is far from my experience. My entire line of sponsorship worked and lived the steps, and they all died sober of natural causes. Not one ever drank again. I do not know of a single case of someone who worked and continued to live the steps who relapsed. All of the people I have worked with and taken the steps with are still sober today, and still living the program.

I have seen people stop living the program and stop working with others relapse, sometimes never to return.

And I have seen countless people come to AA and not work or live the program, probably because they dont want to which is fine, go back out and get drunk. I've seen some of these last for years and years, saying all the right therapy speak and catchy AA slogans, and then relapse.

But in my experience, those statistics in the foreword to the second edition still ring true. Of those who come to AA and really try, most recover.And most who don't, don't. It has never been AA's purpose to furnish motivation.

Working and living the steps is an entirely different thing to appearing to work the steps and saying all the right things.

tomsteve

I found this statement in the big book quite true. I do so because I have seen quite a few with years of recovery make it back. and say this happened. I have talked to others who had called me drunk and said they did this,too:
It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our activities. "How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine) be done." These are thoughts which must go with us constantly. We can exercise our will power along this line all we wish. It is the proper use of the will.

Nuudawn

I used to be kind of interested in information that pointed to a "low" success rate for AA. I think that was simply because, at that time, I thought it was the only answer and I wanted some new ones. I wanted the recovery dam to break open with simply MORE answers. I think I feel better about that now. I feel like there are other options. That pleases me.

But in thinking about this very thing a night or two ago...the 5% I had in my head at time of thought, I'm thinking that's ALOT of people who maintained sobriety with AA. Like lots and lots. I think a lot of people have recovered via other routes too.

What I came to is I'm really interested in the ones who did sober up. Lots of people have sobered up! That's my inspiration right there...whatever the recovery method.

I'm no longer in any sort of "glass half empty" thinking for any reason.
Others have sobered..and that's what I care about. That's what's important.
So can I...by whatever means possible.
That's the great big shining beacon of hope.

LadyinBC

This pretty much sums it up for me. I just can't worry about the success rates of different programs or others, if I did that I would still be drinking.

If something works for you that is great. If it's not working for you, find something else that will work for you. What works for one might not work for another. People have to find their own groove.

In my opinion, at the end of the day it really comes down to how badly you want to stay sober and what you are willing to do to stay that way. Programs are just that, they are programs. No matter how "good" the program it is only going to be good if you are working it for you. It is a personal choice.

desypete

for me i believe in aa totaly i believe aa sucess rate should be way more higher than it is
the problem i see is in sponcors who dont teach there new comers anything at all about doing service in aa or showing them the lengths they should be going to help new comers

the new comers at best are lucky to get some telephone numbers these days from people in the meetings
were as years ago everyone would be offering out lifts to meetings, offering to keep new comers company and just trying to make friends with the new comer
i see them come and go with just a few phone numbers and i wonder if more was done to be a friend with that new comer would they come back ?

thats why its easy for me to see who are the ones in aa who will go that extra mile and who are the ones who will sit back and do nothing but spout off what aa and the program has done for them

its no coincidence that those guys who have been around well over 30 years in aa have all been heavy in helping new comers and service work

i know what new comers give me and there invaluable but bill w first found this out as to how 1 alcoholic can understand and help another, but the biggest gift was how it makes me feel when i see someone shaking from the booze with there heads held low and there eyes in a daze with confusion.

i never want to go back to that again new comers bring it right home to me just how bad it was like it was only yesterday for me

its been 10 years without a drink for me and i need to always be reminded of just how bad it really was otherwise i am going to forget and maybe just maybe think it wasnt so bad or could i try drinking in a different way lol

that compulsion is gone but it doesn't mean it will not come back again unless i put the effort in

so for me the 5 % is about right for aa but it gets lower the longer someone is around, its also only 10% of aa memebers who really do the work in aa the rest are free loaders who dont have a mother group even : (

tackle this problem and i believe aa with rocket up again

LadyinBC

Do you not think you are a little too concerned with others recovery and the stats?

Just curious is all.

jason2

That sounds about right. I'll have to look him up.

desypete

to be fair my first 5 years being sober was like yours all about me and i had no concern at all with who did what around aa or helping anyone else
only when i did the steps and really worked that 12th step did i suddenly change my way of thinking and its not all about me anymore i am far more interested in helping others than whats in it for me

i am not in the least bit concerned with your recovery i am concerned that aa will always be around to help new comers and if i dont put the work in will you ?

in my area groups are in need of mother group memebers to help run the meetings if they dont get help the groups will close and the more meetings close the less meetings there are for anyone to go to in there hour of need

who knows just when someone needs a meeting to run off to when something bad comes along
how many times have we heard someone say
thank god this meeting is here tonight as i needed it

well the meetings will not be there by magic as someone has to put the work in around aa
or doesnt that even enter anyones heads ?

LadyinBC

Okay fair enough, was just trying to figure out where you were coming from.

desypete

sevice work is part of the aa way of life yet its something that many members in aa just will not get into
drives me nuts at times as i see other meetings struggling for help yet they get member's coming into them sharing how grateful they are and yet will not help out.
thats why i made the point about sponsors not teaching there new comers anything at all about getting into service within aa

caboblanco

Since when is service work part of the AA way of life? besides trying to help other alcoholics in the program

desypete

you have just proved my point as you clearly have never heard of recovery,unity, service ?

look it up and see what you find my friend : )

jdooner

Personally, I would prefer to have a surgeon operate on me vs. someone who thinks they are a surgeon. I see this as part of AA's double edged word. On one hand you want to relate with someone like you but on the other you are have to trust that a person working a program is genuine and is not working his or her own agenda. This is why AA writes of a solution and guidelines to its 12 step recovery program, so we don't have people working rogue program. As you can see it still happens.

caboblanco

that is just to spread the message of AA..that would be to alcoholics who accepted the program...not exactly service but more missionary work..that is just my opinion though

Boleo

There was a time when I sought out only the best meetings and best sponsors. I was obsessed with "quality" when it came to outside resources for my recovery.

However, the sponsor that ended up helping me in the long-run was not the best sponsor that I ever had. It turned out to be a mediocre sponsor.
Why? Because it was the first sponsor that I actually followed directions from 100%

I can now see that the quality of my recovery came from my own willingness (willingness is the key). I would now say that 98% of the power in a sponsor/sponcee relationship comes from the receiving end. Quality is an inside job.

jdooner

Perhaps Boleo. However, I had a sponsor that while his intentions were good he did not fully understand the solution, as he did not experience it fully bc his sponsor did not work it according to AA's BB. Yes, I stayed sober and learned much through this process and it was meant to be.

But: If I take a gifted athlete and put him/her with the worst coach vs. a medicare athlete with the World's best coach the later sees more improvement. Has Bill Belichick, Mike Krzyzewski, or Jose Mourinho proved this point?

I believe there is a willingness and openness that the subject needs to display. However, it is incumbent upon the sponsor to work a program that adheres to AA's solution or the sponsee is getting cheated. Again, just my opinions based on experiences.

Gottalife

I find myself in full agreement with desypete and his criticism of the fellowship. It might be tough but it is what we need to hear, at least in the fellowship in my area.

It is very true that most sponsors don't teach traditions and concepts, and it is equally true that almost no groups that I have ever attended teach their people about how to run/participate in service meetings. In fact most of our groups are really just meetings, with no functioning group conscience.

Some results of this are,

It is rare for someone to be 12 stepped before coming to a meeting. Instead they are told to just turn up. This results in a lot of non alcoholics turning up, and also people who are unfamiliar with how an AA meeting works. Their AA meeting training is heavily influenced by what they see at their first meeting. If they see bad behaviour, they will emulate it because that is what we taught them because we were too lazy to 12 step them.

Secondly our local service meetings such as intergroup are a mad house. No one knows how it is supposed to run, guidelines are ignored, and when there is a lack of procedural knowledge, emotion takes over resulting in an endless stream of crazy decisions. As a result, our intergroup gives most of the 12 step money collected from the groups to GSO, because it can't organise any local intiiatives to help the still suffering alcoholic. This isn't every area, in some cities intergroup is very effective, but not in my home patch.

Many groups do not know how to hold a group conscience meeting, and if I was to suggest so, I would be most unpopular. On friday night a GC meeting was called by one member who objected to some wording in the meeting format. There was no chair, no clear opportunities to speak, no record of the motion and no one knew how to take the vote. On top of that the mover interupted and argued with anyone who opposed the motion. All the members there especially the newcomers, now think this is how a GC meeting is run. No wonder we have trouble getting people to stay on for it.

Service is its own reward as the saying goes. All service, from washing the cups to representing the group at area level, and everything in between serves a vital function of ensuring our message gets out into the community, that there is litterature available, that there are meetings to come to, that our bills are paid, that we can benefit from the experience of other groups, that we can work together to solve our common problem. Without service, there is no AA, and with no AA there is no hope for the newcomer and most of us will whither and die.

Service, even in a modest way, is about the most effective way of making a newcomer feel part of a group. For many of us it is the first time we have ever done anything just to help someone else, and we experience the feeling of being useful, of being a part of something. That is really special. the first job my sponsor asked me to do was to take someone to a meeting. I remeber like it was yesterday how good that made me feel. This isn't theory, it's real experience. Through service a newcomer gets to know how good it feels to live this life. That is why it is important to rotate service positions, so everyone has the opportunity for this experience.

I don't agree with the stats on the low success rate because I think you can only include in any trial those who actually take the medicine. But I do agree that if we did a better job of sponsorship and gave people more opportunity to be involved, many may stay longer and try the medicine.

Boleo

Ok, so you have outgrown your first sponsor. So did I. There came a point in my recovery where I saw that getting sober (steps 1-9) was a whole different ballgame than staying sober (steps 10-12).

However, that does not mean that your first sponsor was not "good enough" at the time. Good enough is like Einsteins law of relativity. It depends on the location of the observer.

jdooner

I agree with you. For me everything has happened for a reason. I needed certain things when and where I needed them. I was unaware of all this in the beginning though.

desypete

very well put and it sums up my complaints to a t

i got pushed into service work as i didnt want to do it, i just wanted to tell the world how to get sober i wasnt interested in doing any work to help anyone or the fellowship
thats not how it works as it doesnt say so in the book lol

its called the blind leading the blind
like i said i got pushed into service work by some very smart people in aa they knew it would do me the power of good and it did

today i am not interested in telling people how it works i will just be there to help them if they ask
i will take them to a meeting if they wish and i will pass on my hand of friendship and hopefully this act of kindness will stick with the new comer and one day he might be able to do the same thing for someone else who comes into aa

or he might simply forget about it and become super sober within a year and tell the world how its done, aa is nothing in this sober memebers eyes and the quest for knowledge and being able to come up with little gems of wisdom drive him on and on untill he gets bored with it all and stops going to aa meetings as he doesnt need it anymore

thats why i put it down to bad sponsoring and how it affects the success rate as if all your going to teach people is the steps and forget about the important role of service and 12th step work then your missing out on the most important area that shows the change and growth for each and everyone of us

of course you can just say sod it i am not going to do anything for aa but give out my info on what i know and mask that as 12th step work or see it as a calling from god and to spread the word about god as the message

but for me i have to be grateful to aa and help aa survive for the new comers to come to
and then they can get attacked by the super sobers who will pass on there peals of wisdom: )