addiction recovery is cultural
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Originally Posted by freethinking 
I believe I am an alcoholic because it is in my genes. I come from a long line of hardcore drunks. Most either died to young for health reasons, or committed suicide. We just don't survive.
Alcoholic genes got weeded out through the generations of alcohol exposure because the fact that most of alcoholics in ancient times then either killed themselves very young or died too young to reproduce which means they must have
started drinking as soon as they were weened of breast milk because they were sexually mature by early teenage years and many became fathers at that age in ancient times. Maybe alcoholics were so shunned by society that none of them could get a date let alone get laid. Interesting theory.
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Looks like a fun and spirited debate.
I agree with you Cabo regarding the environmental impact as it relates to addiction and the disease model. I debated you previously on this topic and I was wrong. You planted seed that germinated into much research and it seems the genetic model was largely old thinking still perpetuated largely by the US for policy reasons. While there might be tendency to certain addiction based on genetic composition, I believe addiction is a greater function (95%) environmental.
FT - what if you were raised by alcoholics and you picked up on the same traits and were unable to get the same nurturing from them that resulted in their addiction? This is the brief environmental view on addiction. No two people could have the same experiences and so no two addictions could be the same. This has been studied in the twins models, which has largely found holes in the genetic thesis.
In terms of Moderation Management, I don't believe moderation is possible for the addcit/alcoholic. I believe the founder, Audrey Kishline, a self acknowledged problem drinker worked MM and ended up killing a father and 12 year old daughter in a drunk driving accident. Audrey had poked holes publicly on the Today show and other media outlets at AA. Dr. Stanton Peele has publicly supported Audrey and has since recanted his statements on Youtube videos and is now supporting AA. I am not sure if he supports AA before or after his YouTube segments though.
Statement on Audrey Kishline.
I agree with you Cabo regarding the environmental impact as it relates to addiction and the disease model. I debated you previously on this topic and I was wrong. You planted seed that germinated into much research and it seems the genetic model was largely old thinking still perpetuated largely by the US for policy reasons. While there might be tendency to certain addiction based on genetic composition, I believe addiction is a greater function (95%) environmental.
FT - what if you were raised by alcoholics and you picked up on the same traits and were unable to get the same nurturing from them that resulted in their addiction? This is the brief environmental view on addiction. No two people could have the same experiences and so no two addictions could be the same. This has been studied in the twins models, which has largely found holes in the genetic thesis.
In terms of Moderation Management, I don't believe moderation is possible for the addcit/alcoholic. I believe the founder, Audrey Kishline, a self acknowledged problem drinker worked MM and ended up killing a father and 12 year old daughter in a drunk driving accident. Audrey had poked holes publicly on the Today show and other media outlets at AA. Dr. Stanton Peele has publicly supported Audrey and has since recanted his statements on Youtube videos and is now supporting AA. I am not sure if he supports AA before or after his YouTube segments though.
Statement on Audrey Kishline.
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Jd, I believe that Ms Kishline's tragic drunk driving episode that killed two people happened after she began attending AA. I do not believe that that correlation argues for causation, but this fact might inform your post.
I don't know if MM would be possible for me, and I don't really care, having a Big Plan and all, but it might be possible for others. Some data says that it is. I think Peele's position is that there is no one size for all solution which seems to agree with our collective experience here.
Did you see the whole interview excerpted in caboblanco's OP? Context is everything.
I don't know if MM would be possible for me, and I don't really care, having a Big Plan and all, but it might be possible for others. Some data says that it is. I think Peele's position is that there is no one size for all solution which seems to agree with our collective experience here.
Did you see the whole interview excerpted in caboblanco's OP? Context is everything.
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I agree that cultural understandings, traditions and biases impact both the understanding of addiction and it's mode of recovery.
Beyond that I found his statements to be circular gobbeldygook. I watched a few other snippets of the interview and seems like usually there was a nugget that made sense, and then a lot of sentences that either made no sense, didn't go anywhere or contradicted themselves.
One snippet seemed to discount AA as a recovery method, right after he said that AA is based on certain cultural beliefs...which is why it is effective in a given culture.
Perhaps the oft spoken of declining recovery rates in AA have to do with changing cultural beliefs and a smaller % of Americans being steeped in the culture and beliefs that AA is founded on. Makes sense to me.
I am confused by the idea that moderation is an option for recovery for an alcoholic. What definition of alcoholic or "class" of alcoholic is that true for.
This is an honest question, not a jibe. My understanding of an alcoholic is someone who cannot drink in moderation. If once can moderate, then they aren't an alcoholic. Why seek treatment or recovery for an addiction that you don't need treatment for?
To me, people who can moderate aren't a class of alcoholic, they are not alcoholics. If I don't have a problem moderating something, then it's not a problem.
but I do understand that there are people who abuse substances, but are not addicted to those substances and can choose to moderate if they decide the over use is negatively affecting their lives.
I've made that decision in my life with behaviors and substances that I abused, but was not addicted to. My understanding of alcoholism is that it is defined as an addiction to alcohol.
As far as the discussion on the low tolerance to alcohol and the high alcoholism rate in NA, I have heard from people who work with them in a medical capacity that there are physiologic/metabolic components. They also have a higher rate of diabetes than people of European decent.
here is a quote from a web site of the Native American Diabetes Resource. "
According to the National Institute for Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, the "thrifty gene" theory proposes that African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, Asian Americans and Native Americans inherited a gene from their ancestors which enabled them to use food more efficiently during "feast and famine" cycles. Today there are fewer such cycles; this causes certain populations to be more susceptible to obesity and to developing type 2 diabetes."
It is not simply a case of people being weeded out by natural selection because of alcoholism. Alcoholism is just one of several metabolic issues that are related in these populations. The other issues are also factors that would select against people either having children or remaining healthy and competitive enough to raise those children to young adulthood. Again, culture rears it's head. We have to look at the genetic and cultural realities of these groups in their own right, not through the lens of modern American culture.
While NA may have origins and ties to Asia, they have been in the Americas at least 10,000 years under vastly different climactic conditions and challenges. Plenty of time for their genetics to vary through natural selection in significant ways.
Well before modern American culture and it's current attitudes towards alcohol, European immigrants recognized how easily Native Americans became addicted to alcohol and used that against them.
I am not denying, nor am I blind to associated socio economic factors, but I think it is short sighted to ignore the metabolic factors involved. Those are just as much a part of cultural reality as beliefs and customs, many of which are rooted in climate and the food available to a population.
These factors cannot be separated if one is to have an accurate and insightful analysis of these situations.
One of the cultural ideologies prevalent in America, and I believe in much of Western thinking is duality. There is a strong belief in the separation between body/mind...or as many call it "spirit". That is just one way the tendency toward dualistic thinking manifests, but in situations like this it is critical.
There is the idea that we are separate and not subject to our environment. That we can "think" our way out of all manner of physical realities. Advancement in technology often supports that idea, but evolution and physiology are realities that we cannot think our way out of, and we are still subject to.
Religious beliefs are often mocked and ridiculed in today's tech savvy culture, with no respect for or understanding of the roles they played in developing cultures in ancient or even prehistoric times. That these behaviors stem from behavioral tendencies selected for by evolution to support the creation and maintenance of tight communities. Communities that were necessary for the survival and success of the human species. These sprang from the particular and real challenges the various groups had to confront in order to survive.
While it may seem smart and advanced to say...ah well, primitive nonsense...time to shrug it off, again, that is to remain ignorant of the reality that such behaviors are hard wired into us.
As cultures collide and meld and meet new challenges, new "tribes" and belief systems form. Gangs, political parties, fan bases, fanatic adoration of sports teams, nationalism, genderism. We have not overcome evolution either behaviorally or physiologically.
Part of culture resides in the chemistry of our bodies as well as in our behavior as both groups and individuals.
Beyond that I found his statements to be circular gobbeldygook. I watched a few other snippets of the interview and seems like usually there was a nugget that made sense, and then a lot of sentences that either made no sense, didn't go anywhere or contradicted themselves.
One snippet seemed to discount AA as a recovery method, right after he said that AA is based on certain cultural beliefs...which is why it is effective in a given culture.
Perhaps the oft spoken of declining recovery rates in AA have to do with changing cultural beliefs and a smaller % of Americans being steeped in the culture and beliefs that AA is founded on. Makes sense to me.
I am confused by the idea that moderation is an option for recovery for an alcoholic. What definition of alcoholic or "class" of alcoholic is that true for.
This is an honest question, not a jibe. My understanding of an alcoholic is someone who cannot drink in moderation. If once can moderate, then they aren't an alcoholic. Why seek treatment or recovery for an addiction that you don't need treatment for?
To me, people who can moderate aren't a class of alcoholic, they are not alcoholics. If I don't have a problem moderating something, then it's not a problem.
but I do understand that there are people who abuse substances, but are not addicted to those substances and can choose to moderate if they decide the over use is negatively affecting their lives.
I've made that decision in my life with behaviors and substances that I abused, but was not addicted to. My understanding of alcoholism is that it is defined as an addiction to alcohol.
As far as the discussion on the low tolerance to alcohol and the high alcoholism rate in NA, I have heard from people who work with them in a medical capacity that there are physiologic/metabolic components. They also have a higher rate of diabetes than people of European decent.
here is a quote from a web site of the Native American Diabetes Resource. "
According to the National Institute for Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, the "thrifty gene" theory proposes that African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, Asian Americans and Native Americans inherited a gene from their ancestors which enabled them to use food more efficiently during "feast and famine" cycles. Today there are fewer such cycles; this causes certain populations to be more susceptible to obesity and to developing type 2 diabetes."
It is not simply a case of people being weeded out by natural selection because of alcoholism. Alcoholism is just one of several metabolic issues that are related in these populations. The other issues are also factors that would select against people either having children or remaining healthy and competitive enough to raise those children to young adulthood. Again, culture rears it's head. We have to look at the genetic and cultural realities of these groups in their own right, not through the lens of modern American culture.
While NA may have origins and ties to Asia, they have been in the Americas at least 10,000 years under vastly different climactic conditions and challenges. Plenty of time for their genetics to vary through natural selection in significant ways.
Well before modern American culture and it's current attitudes towards alcohol, European immigrants recognized how easily Native Americans became addicted to alcohol and used that against them.
I am not denying, nor am I blind to associated socio economic factors, but I think it is short sighted to ignore the metabolic factors involved. Those are just as much a part of cultural reality as beliefs and customs, many of which are rooted in climate and the food available to a population.
These factors cannot be separated if one is to have an accurate and insightful analysis of these situations.
One of the cultural ideologies prevalent in America, and I believe in much of Western thinking is duality. There is a strong belief in the separation between body/mind...or as many call it "spirit". That is just one way the tendency toward dualistic thinking manifests, but in situations like this it is critical.
There is the idea that we are separate and not subject to our environment. That we can "think" our way out of all manner of physical realities. Advancement in technology often supports that idea, but evolution and physiology are realities that we cannot think our way out of, and we are still subject to.
Religious beliefs are often mocked and ridiculed in today's tech savvy culture, with no respect for or understanding of the roles they played in developing cultures in ancient or even prehistoric times. That these behaviors stem from behavioral tendencies selected for by evolution to support the creation and maintenance of tight communities. Communities that were necessary for the survival and success of the human species. These sprang from the particular and real challenges the various groups had to confront in order to survive.
While it may seem smart and advanced to say...ah well, primitive nonsense...time to shrug it off, again, that is to remain ignorant of the reality that such behaviors are hard wired into us.
As cultures collide and meld and meet new challenges, new "tribes" and belief systems form. Gangs, political parties, fan bases, fanatic adoration of sports teams, nationalism, genderism. We have not overcome evolution either behaviorally or physiologically.
Part of culture resides in the chemistry of our bodies as well as in our behavior as both groups and individuals.
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Originally Posted by caboblanco
I'm wondering if this is the theory form the book "Under the Influence."
Alcoholic genes got weeded out through the generations of alcohol exposure because the fact that most of alcoholics in ancient times then either killed themselves very young or died too young to reproduce which means they must have
started drinking as soon as they were weened of breast milk because they were sexually mature by early teenage years and many became fathers at that age in ancient times. Maybe alcoholics were so shunned by society that none of them could get a date let alone get laid. Interesting theory.
Alcoholic genes got weeded out through the generations of alcohol exposure because the fact that most of alcoholics in ancient times then either killed themselves very young or died too young to reproduce which means they must have
started drinking as soon as they were weened of breast milk because they were sexually mature by early teenage years and many became fathers at that age in ancient times. Maybe alcoholics were so shunned by society that none of them could get a date let alone get laid. Interesting theory.
You are taking that WAY TOO LITERALLY! Of course some alcoholics still lived and reproduced. Come on, I know you know that they are not stating natural selection literally killed off every single alcoholic.
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Originally Posted by Threshold
.
I am not denying, nor am I blind to associated socio economic factors, but I think it is short sighted to ignore the metabolic factors involved. Those are just as much a part of cultural reality as beliefs and customs, many of which are rooted in climate and the food available to a population.
I am not denying, nor am I blind to associated socio economic factors, but I think it is short sighted to ignore the metabolic factors involved. Those are just as much a part of cultural reality as beliefs and customs, many of which are rooted in climate and the food available to a population.
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Originally Posted by jdooner
FT - what if you were raised by alcoholics and you picked up on the same traits and were unable to get the same nurturing from them that resulted in their addiction? This is the brief environmental view on addiction. No two people could have the same experiences and so no two addictions could be the same. This has been studied in the twins models, which has largely found holes in the genetic thesis.
But to play along, I am sure we have all seen this happen (2 alcoholics raise kids). IMO, the kids either turn out alchoholic because they have the gene, or they become so turned off to alcohol that they barely, if ever, touch the stuff.
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Here is an article explaining the cultural differences in Protestants and Catholics in Europe that led to different drinking cultures
Roman Catholic and Protestant drinking attitudes have deep roots in the past: Dr. Engs
Roman Catholic and Protestant drinking attitudes have deep roots in the past: Dr. Engs
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Cabo, that article is a load of tosh. Its banging on about catholics consuming the most alcohol, but by far the most widespread religion is roman catholic. There are more agnostics and atheists than protestants.
Religiosity in the European Union (2012)[1]
Catholicism
48%
Protestantism
12%
Orthodoxy
8%
Other Christianity
4%
Islam
2%
Atheism
7%
Non-belief/ Agnosticism
16%
Other / Don't know
3%
Now look at per capita consumption
List of countries by alcohol consumption - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Greatest consumption is in the poorer eastern European nations.
There's more to this drinking than just culture, but its certainly a big factor.
Religiosity in the European Union (2012)[1]
Catholicism
48%
Protestantism
12%
Orthodoxy
8%
Other Christianity
4%
Islam
2%
Atheism
7%
Non-belief/ Agnosticism
16%
Other / Don't know
3%
Now look at per capita consumption
List of countries by alcohol consumption - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Greatest consumption is in the poorer eastern European nations.
There's more to this drinking than just culture, but its certainly a big factor.
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The Roman Catholic areas had higher amount of people that consumed alcohol while the protestant areas had higher binge drinking rates. i think if you are born roman catholic or Protestant that is part of your culture whether you become atheists or agnostic which I realize is a trend in Europe. The article was using past cultural influences that influence different regions today. The religious makeup is not the same but much of the culture has remained the same
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Article is all over the place, but seems to be making a link between the Romans and consumption of wine - as if that's some how significant to the price of bread. Of course the Scots are notorious for alcoholism - the catholic and the protestant ones. The Finn's and Norwegians are also known for their alcohol abuse and down here in Spain I see the local police regularly having a shot in the morning with their coffee...
And what about the Australian, they were predominantly protestant European. they now have a wine industry that's probably bigger than France.
Im not saying there are no links to alcohol abuse and nations or culture. I just think it doesn't explain everything, even though I have used the excuse of being English for my over consumption of beer when in mixed company many many times
And what about the Australian, they were predominantly protestant European. they now have a wine industry that's probably bigger than France.
Im not saying there are no links to alcohol abuse and nations or culture. I just think it doesn't explain everything, even though I have used the excuse of being English for my over consumption of beer when in mixed company many many times
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Originally Posted by caboblanco
the alcohol consumption per capita doesn't tell you the alcohol addiction or abuse rate..two totally different statistics
Should also point out that beer, or "ale" was consumed instead of water in many parts of northern europe, purely because the alcohol content killed the bugs that were present in normally available water.
In asia, they boiled the water and made tea, which has a similar effect of killing the bugs and making the water more fragrant.
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Originally Posted by MrTumble
You're right, but I reckon we can pretty safely make a correlation, no?
Should also point out that beer, or "ale" was consumed instead of water in many parts of northern europe, purely because the alcohol content killed the bugs that were present in normally available water.
In asia, they boiled the water and made tea, which has a similar effect of killing the bugs and making the water more fragrant.
Should also point out that beer, or "ale" was consumed instead of water in many parts of northern europe, purely because the alcohol content killed the bugs that were present in normally available water.
In asia, they boiled the water and made tea, which has a similar effect of killing the bugs and making the water more fragrant.
The northern European Protestant culture was ingrained in Australian society. The wine industry that blew up as of late will have little influence on that
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There is a difference in alcohol culture between southern and northern Europe, but also in difference northern countries (where I come from). The strength of protestant puritanism varies in different countries.
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Do we have the per capita alcohol addiction numbers?
One point here, whilst googling around im seeing all sorts of rankings for per capita consumption, so as always, there are lies, damn lies and statistics
This one reckons the USA is 10th in the world:
U.S. tenth in world's alcohol use per capita - Chicago Alcoholism Recovery | Examiner.com
This one reckons yourre some several multiples away from that:
List of countries by alcohol consumption - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
depends what pattern you are looking for. Make a hypothesis and I bet we can make it fit one way or another
One point here, whilst googling around im seeing all sorts of rankings for per capita consumption, so as always, there are lies, damn lies and statistics
This one reckons the USA is 10th in the world:
U.S. tenth in world's alcohol use per capita - Chicago Alcoholism Recovery | Examiner.com
This one reckons yourre some several multiples away from that:
List of countries by alcohol consumption - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
depends what pattern you are looking for. Make a hypothesis and I bet we can make it fit one way or another
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Originally Posted by soberhawk
There is a difference in alcohol culture between southern and northern Europe, but also in difference northern countries (where I come from). The strength of protestant puritanism varies in different countries.
Its a bloomin' great big mystery...
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I'm an alcoholic, regardless of the culture I live in. And there social ills on every continent on the planet. Changing society is nearly impossible, but changing ourselves is very possible. I choose to change what I can and not drink today.
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well there are reliable statistics on alcohol abuse and I will find them. as far as wikipedia on per capita consumption..i don't know. I'm talking about statistics published by the government. yeah statistical data can be skewed..you have to note the source and read the fine print and such
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