Moderation Management
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
While I know many moderate drinkers, I don't know any that learned how to drink moderately from a support group. People who drink moderately just do it; they don't need "support" to be able to do so. Does no one else see this? This isn't rocket science.
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Singapore
Posts: 737
Originally Posted by ElegantlyWasted 
"...and was and still am interested in the efficacy of such an approach."
Go figure, I just realized that - minus a few small and stupid relapses - I have almost 2 years of sobriety, and a fast returning quality of life. Thing is, with all that considered there's a part of me still highly interested in the efficacy of moderation management... enough so that should I dwell on such fantastical nonsense I might even suspend my sobriety and try it again, despite the potential cost. I'd like to think of that part of me as the "alcoholic" part. (Yes, that was facetious, but not on purpose). Even though I had failed miserably at executing the principles of moderation for a decade or more, and even though after each attempt my life suffered worse from having made the attempt. Seems crazy, sure, but my addictive voice still salivates at the thought of more experimentation with moderating my drinking. Thank God I refuse to listen or even acknowledge that voice anymore.
I'd even go so far as to wonder how many of us drunks have not already unconsciously experimented with the efficacy of moderating, using various methods and systems, at different points in our drinking careers - you know - before booze had us all making complete fools of ourselves and tanking all of our best intentions and lives.
You'd think that where booze is concerned, a decade of failure would make something like moderation management at the very least dis-interesting to me, yes? Even when it is plainly obvious from my own history of problem drinking and alcoholism that moderation management is about as realistic as eating 10 cheeseburgers a day can lead to healthy weight loss. I often wonder why people like me continually take these leaps in logic... actually no, I don't wonder. I know why we revisit the possibility of drinking again. Because we're booze hounds. Full stop.
Then again, I'm not you EW. We are both on the same recovery board due to substance abuse problems, but I'm not you. So yeah, as so many are saying, good luck with your curiosity and experimentation EW. Do let us know how it works out for you.
I'd only add that a while back I remember you stating...
Originally Posted by ElegantlyWasted
If, for whatever reason, you are inclined to addictive behavior the cost far outweigh the benefits of ANY alcohol consumption in my opinion.
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: London
Posts: 29
I honestly believe if I drank again one of two things would happen. I would either end up in a mental home or dead.
The majority of these moderate drinking program are being sold to alcoholics who dont want to quit for good which is the only option.
Notice how I said 'sold' in the last sentance. Companies are trying to profit out of peoples reluctance to give up booze.
The majority of these moderate drinking program are being sold to alcoholics who dont want to quit for good which is the only option.
Notice how I said 'sold' in the last sentance. Companies are trying to profit out of peoples reluctance to give up booze.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
MM doesn't cost any more than any other recovery group, with recommended literature, etc, but even if it did, the implication here — that other recovery groups are free and that no one is making money out of them — is not quite true.
High on Life
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Been to Hell and Back
Posts: 1,157
Moderation used to be my dream, but then I woke up to reality. Now after being sober for a considerable amount of time I can't imagine trying so hard at something, that is literally poisoning my body. On Sunday, I will be running yet another marathon. My friend who is not an alcoholic has to bow out of the marathon this year, because going out too often with friends interfered with his training.
The things that I have accomplished physically running and in the gym this year, wouldn't have been possible even if I could be a moderate drinker. I'm like 5-6% body fat and in the best shape of my life.
One day I have a dream to compete in the Iron Man (when I'm done with school), which would not be possible drinking alcohol.
Honestly, Alcohol is a waste of time.
The things that I have accomplished physically running and in the gym this year, wouldn't have been possible even if I could be a moderate drinker. I'm like 5-6% body fat and in the best shape of my life.
One day I have a dream to compete in the Iron Man (when I'm done with school), which would not be possible drinking alcohol.
Honestly, Alcohol is a waste of time.
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
While I know many moderate drinkers, I don't know any that learned how to drink moderately from a support group. People who drink moderately just do it; they don't need "support" to be able to do so. Does no one else see this? This isn't rocket science.
I drank for 30+ years. About 25 of them I was able to moderate with little, if any, conscious effort. I simply was a moderate drinker.
About 5 of the final years, I made a 100% conscious effort to moderate and failed. Not every time but often enough to see a progression in my failures. I simply was a alcoholic (still am).
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Well, since I did do MM for a while, I did know people who'd been helped by the group. The group wasn't for me, as I was floridly addicted to alcohol and could not moderate. But there were absolutely people it helped.
Not unlike my experience with AA--I was in that program for a while too, and while it wasn't for me, I know people it helped.
One thing seems pretty obvious to me: our experiences are all valid, but they are all, by necessity, limited. We only see what our choices in life allow us to see. So a person who has tried only one approach and been successful in it is likely to see that approach as "the thing that works". And a person who hasn't been exposed to a particular approach will never have met someone for whom that approach worked, and therefore conclude that it isn't helpful.
But the larger reality is that drinking problems aren't all the same and people aren't all the same. Therefore different approaches are appropriate, and, IMO, the most important thing we can ALL do if we truly care about maximizing health is to promote CHOICE in recovery approaches.
And one thing I have to say MM does really well is to understand that it is not going to be right for everyone, that there are going to be people who try it who simply cannot moderate. So again, even though I failed miserably at MM, I still give them a lot of credit for their attitude...in some ways, abstinence-based approaches could learn a lot from that aspect of MM.
Not unlike my experience with AA--I was in that program for a while too, and while it wasn't for me, I know people it helped.
One thing seems pretty obvious to me: our experiences are all valid, but they are all, by necessity, limited. We only see what our choices in life allow us to see. So a person who has tried only one approach and been successful in it is likely to see that approach as "the thing that works". And a person who hasn't been exposed to a particular approach will never have met someone for whom that approach worked, and therefore conclude that it isn't helpful.
But the larger reality is that drinking problems aren't all the same and people aren't all the same. Therefore different approaches are appropriate, and, IMO, the most important thing we can ALL do if we truly care about maximizing health is to promote CHOICE in recovery approaches.
And one thing I have to say MM does really well is to understand that it is not going to be right for everyone, that there are going to be people who try it who simply cannot moderate. So again, even though I failed miserably at MM, I still give them a lot of credit for their attitude...in some ways, abstinence-based approaches could learn a lot from that aspect of MM.
Re-Tread
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Meditation
Posts: 1,300
EW ive been reading this thread and thinking on it for a few days. I dont know anything about moderation management the program other than whats been posted here. I am in the midst of another attempt to moderate myself. Im sure anyone on the outside would find it ridiculous given my past negative affairs with alcohol but such is life. I realized that the times I drank and acted alcoholically were all tied to shots and hard liquor. Ive cut those out of my life. No more shots at all as I step over the line too fast. If I feel like a beer or glass of wine with dinner, special occassions etc im gonna go ahead. Ive tried AA and I ended up obsessing more over alcohol than ever.
Im not gonna work the MM program but will do some reading on it. My real point of posting is to say there are those of us out there who dont scoff at the idea of trying to moderate. Since making this decision I feel totally comfortable, not stressing about it at all. I had a beer with friends after work last night then went home. No cravings for more. That was my only drink this week. Its a choice to be made just like total abstinence.
Im not gonna work the MM program but will do some reading on it. My real point of posting is to say there are those of us out there who dont scoff at the idea of trying to moderate. Since making this decision I feel totally comfortable, not stressing about it at all. I had a beer with friends after work last night then went home. No cravings for more. That was my only drink this week. Its a choice to be made just like total abstinence.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,146
Fallow, you may not be the best poster child for controlled moderate drinking.
You wrote this 5 days ago:
- i woke up in jail not knowing the extent of the charges
- i swore not to drink after jail and made only 30 days
- i got increasingly angrier and violent when drunk
- i woke up in bed not remembering how i got home only to find out I drove
Earlier classics:
1.feeling sorry for myself especially because I have done this to myself and so many times.
2.Just posting and hoping like hell I dont die and maybe someday if I can get better I will read this to remind myself before I decide I can be a social drinker for the thousandth time.
3.Got drunk as a skunk again last night. I dont even know how it happened. Sitting here hovering over the freakin toilet again this morning. Dont even remember leaving the bar last night. Got to take my baby girl to her doctor in 30 minutes. And I cant even move lest I puke again. What a waste of a man I am. If anyone who thinks they might be addicted reads this run away from drink dont land where i am its so not worth it.
4.This question is one I have struggled with for years. Countless examples of myself have proven to myself that if I am trying to control it I am definitely out of control. It sucks to admit it to myself
So this then would now be the thousandth time. That's a lot.
You wrote this 5 days ago:
- i woke up in jail not knowing the extent of the charges
- i swore not to drink after jail and made only 30 days
- i got increasingly angrier and violent when drunk
- i woke up in bed not remembering how i got home only to find out I drove
Earlier classics:
1.feeling sorry for myself especially because I have done this to myself and so many times.
2.Just posting and hoping like hell I dont die and maybe someday if I can get better I will read this to remind myself before I decide I can be a social drinker for the thousandth time.
3.Got drunk as a skunk again last night. I dont even know how it happened. Sitting here hovering over the freakin toilet again this morning. Dont even remember leaving the bar last night. Got to take my baby girl to her doctor in 30 minutes. And I cant even move lest I puke again. What a waste of a man I am. If anyone who thinks they might be addicted reads this run away from drink dont land where i am its so not worth it.
4.This question is one I have struggled with for years. Countless examples of myself have proven to myself that if I am trying to control it I am definitely out of control. It sucks to admit it to myself
So this then would now be the thousandth time. That's a lot.
Re-Tread
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Meditation
Posts: 1,300
Oh im most definitely not the poster child for moderation! Ive definitely struggled with the idea of addictions and recovery for years now.
This week I took an inventory of sorts over all the addictions Ive had over the years and realized that I never made much of quitting much harder drugs I just decided to stop and did it. This was before I ever read books, sites, or went to meetings.
I sat down with an old friend who also has had drinking problems and we talked. For both of us it seems the hangovers and 'unmanageabiliy' came from our whisky drinkin shot takin reckless abandon nights. Not so much the cold beer after work nights. So he tells me he just doesnt drink hard liquor anymore which is obviously a good idea for me.
Maybe total abstinence is the best idea. But I personally dont sit around and get drunk off beer. I have a wine cellar in the basement thats not touched except once every couple months for dinner pairings with my wife. Ive never drank that stuff to excess. All or nothing has not worked for me so far quite the opposite I feel like its created more obsession. Just knowing I cant go get smashed on liquor but could drink a beer if I felt like it has definitely relieved some anxiety.
Could be dangerous I know. Well see. Im certainly not interested in getting too involved in a site thats strictly about abstinence if I choose to drink sometimes. I like to read here though and feel its helping me. Its saturday night and Im not drinking. And not because Im fighting any desires.
Time will tell.
This week I took an inventory of sorts over all the addictions Ive had over the years and realized that I never made much of quitting much harder drugs I just decided to stop and did it. This was before I ever read books, sites, or went to meetings.
I sat down with an old friend who also has had drinking problems and we talked. For both of us it seems the hangovers and 'unmanageabiliy' came from our whisky drinkin shot takin reckless abandon nights. Not so much the cold beer after work nights. So he tells me he just doesnt drink hard liquor anymore which is obviously a good idea for me.
Maybe total abstinence is the best idea. But I personally dont sit around and get drunk off beer. I have a wine cellar in the basement thats not touched except once every couple months for dinner pairings with my wife. Ive never drank that stuff to excess. All or nothing has not worked for me so far quite the opposite I feel like its created more obsession. Just knowing I cant go get smashed on liquor but could drink a beer if I felt like it has definitely relieved some anxiety.
Could be dangerous I know. Well see. Im certainly not interested in getting too involved in a site thats strictly about abstinence if I choose to drink sometimes. I like to read here though and feel its helping me. Its saturday night and Im not drinking. And not because Im fighting any desires.
Time will tell.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 443
Yes Fallow, time will tell.
But, you never did answer langkah's question about your previous posts. I assume all those statements were related to drinking "hard liquor"? whatever the case for them, I don't think there are too many "moderate drinkers" out there who can sport a resume like that. Not to mention, as impressive as that list is, I bet there's even more, huh?
My sarcasm aside, I have seen problem drinkers become moderate/social/light drinkers, so I do know it is possible. Personally, I may not have tried it 999 time like you have, but I know I tried it a whole bunch, and it never worked for me, least not for very long. But, that was me, and I'm being serious, that does not mean it won't work for you.
I just want to say, here's something else you said, this about moderation, "Could be dangerous I know." Remember, those are your words, so you might want to continue as you are, not drinking, and give it a lot of thought before hitting that magical number - "the thousandth time."
But, you never did answer langkah's question about your previous posts. I assume all those statements were related to drinking "hard liquor"? whatever the case for them, I don't think there are too many "moderate drinkers" out there who can sport a resume like that. Not to mention, as impressive as that list is, I bet there's even more, huh?
My sarcasm aside, I have seen problem drinkers become moderate/social/light drinkers, so I do know it is possible. Personally, I may not have tried it 999 time like you have, but I know I tried it a whole bunch, and it never worked for me, least not for very long. But, that was me, and I'm being serious, that does not mean it won't work for you.
I just want to say, here's something else you said, this about moderation, "Could be dangerous I know." Remember, those are your words, so you might want to continue as you are, not drinking, and give it a lot of thought before hitting that magical number - "the thousandth time."
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by Fallow
Its saturday night and Im not drinking. And not because Im fighting any desires.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Hey Fallow -----
"...I realized that the times I drank and acted alcoholically were all tied to shots and hard liquor. Ive cut those out of my life. No more shots at all as I step over the line too fast. If I feel like a beer or glass of wine with dinner, special occassions etc im gonna go ahead..."
Just a quick question here....you say with shots you step over the line too fast; does this mean that you step over the line with beer and/or wine, just not so fast; it takes longer.....? Also, can you really just have 'a' beer or 'a glass' of wine with dinner or special occasions. The type of alcoholic I was; I found that, like Lays, I couldn't have just one............. (o:
Lots of folks think along those same lines....stick with beer and/or wine only, and just don't do hard liquor....CarolD, here, is the person who usuall posts these stats, but since neither she, nor anybody else has, let me be the one.......... (o:
There's the same alcoholic content by volume in..............:
12oz can/bottle of beer
[5% alcohol (12 x.05 = .60)]
5oz glass of wine
[12% alcohol (5 x .12= .60)]
1.5oz shot of hard liquor
[80 proof is 40% alcohol (1.5 x .40 = .60)]
I hope MM helps you; it just wasn't for this type of alcoholic. .....if you're wondering what type of alcoholic that is (me....), here's my fave story definition of the difference between an alcoholic and a non-alcoholic.
Tom and Harry are friends. Tom is an alcoholic; Harry is not an alcoholic. They meet occasionally after work for drinks and friendly chit-chat. They get their drinks and find a table and sit, and drink, and talk, and........blah, blah-blah, blah-blah. After a bit they both start to feel the effect of the alcohol......Harry, our non-alcoholic, pushes the remains of his current drink away, and asks the bartender for a coffee; Tom, our alcoholic, gets this grin on his face, sneaks the rest of Harry's drink, and asks the bartender for one more (for the road, of course).
Well; I was like Tom. I often had so many "one-more-for-the-road's," the roads were more like rivers....... (o:
I truly hope 'MM' works for you. I just know I couldn't do it. Just remember; non-alcoholics do NOT 'mannage' their alcohol intake to keep said intake at 'moderate;' they simply stop at 'moderate' because they just don't want any more. Heck, I ALWAYS wanted more.............Only allowing a 'moderate' amount of alcohol in my system (daily, or weekly, or monthly, or however often) would just be a total 'tease' to my system. I would be screaming for more in very short order........... (o:
Again, I wish you luck...............
(o:
NoelleR
"...I realized that the times I drank and acted alcoholically were all tied to shots and hard liquor. Ive cut those out of my life. No more shots at all as I step over the line too fast. If I feel like a beer or glass of wine with dinner, special occassions etc im gonna go ahead..."
Just a quick question here....you say with shots you step over the line too fast; does this mean that you step over the line with beer and/or wine, just not so fast; it takes longer.....? Also, can you really just have 'a' beer or 'a glass' of wine with dinner or special occasions. The type of alcoholic I was; I found that, like Lays, I couldn't have just one............. (o:
Lots of folks think along those same lines....stick with beer and/or wine only, and just don't do hard liquor....CarolD, here, is the person who usuall posts these stats, but since neither she, nor anybody else has, let me be the one.......... (o:
There's the same alcoholic content by volume in..............:
12oz can/bottle of beer
[5% alcohol (12 x.05 = .60)]
5oz glass of wine
[12% alcohol (5 x .12= .60)]
1.5oz shot of hard liquor
[80 proof is 40% alcohol (1.5 x .40 = .60)]
I hope MM helps you; it just wasn't for this type of alcoholic. .....if you're wondering what type of alcoholic that is (me....), here's my fave story definition of the difference between an alcoholic and a non-alcoholic.
Tom and Harry are friends. Tom is an alcoholic; Harry is not an alcoholic. They meet occasionally after work for drinks and friendly chit-chat. They get their drinks and find a table and sit, and drink, and talk, and........blah, blah-blah, blah-blah. After a bit they both start to feel the effect of the alcohol......Harry, our non-alcoholic, pushes the remains of his current drink away, and asks the bartender for a coffee; Tom, our alcoholic, gets this grin on his face, sneaks the rest of Harry's drink, and asks the bartender for one more (for the road, of course).
Well; I was like Tom. I often had so many "one-more-for-the-road's," the roads were more like rivers....... (o:
I truly hope 'MM' works for you. I just know I couldn't do it. Just remember; non-alcoholics do NOT 'mannage' their alcohol intake to keep said intake at 'moderate;' they simply stop at 'moderate' because they just don't want any more. Heck, I ALWAYS wanted more.............Only allowing a 'moderate' amount of alcohol in my system (daily, or weekly, or monthly, or however often) would just be a total 'tease' to my system. I would be screaming for more in very short order........... (o:
Again, I wish you luck...............
(o:
NoelleR
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vashon WA
Posts: 1,035
I've got ninety days in sobriety now. When I was trying moderation I could never even get to five pm! I still think about drinking of course, I drank all the time for 25 years, but I don't fantasize about "drinking normally". I'm actually pretty interested in being sober. It's a blast.
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