Moderation Management
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,444
I don't think the Kishline story tells us anything more than active alcoholics can find themselves in ever more tragic circumstances.
As she left MM, I think her personal story is OT to this thread.
D
As she left MM, I think her personal story is OT to this thread.
D
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
I personally have nothing against MM and have no problem recommending that people who are considering a moderation path check it out. It's an interesting approach and I imagine it helps some.
I say that even though it didn't work for me. I tried it, and could not get past the first challenge, which was to abstain for a month. For me, anything that left open the option of drinking was doomed to failure. Nothing has ever worked for me other than an absolute commitment never to drink again (not drinking "just for today" didn't do much for me either, since it left open the option of drinking tomorrow).
The thing is that my month in MM helped me to see that I could not moderate. And the group gave me no judgment about that: their stance was "okay then, moderation obviously isn't for you, you're someone who needs to totally abstain". Nothing wrong with that.
I say that even though it didn't work for me. I tried it, and could not get past the first challenge, which was to abstain for a month. For me, anything that left open the option of drinking was doomed to failure. Nothing has ever worked for me other than an absolute commitment never to drink again (not drinking "just for today" didn't do much for me either, since it left open the option of drinking tomorrow).
The thing is that my month in MM helped me to see that I could not moderate. And the group gave me no judgment about that: their stance was "okay then, moderation obviously isn't for you, you're someone who needs to totally abstain". Nothing wrong with that.
12-Step Recovered Alkie
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West Bloomfield, MI
Posts: 5,797
I really didn't mean my post to look like a slam on MM.... As the facts showed, she was actually attending AA and RR meetings when the crash happened. (that, in itself, seems problematic to me - when AA's foundation is built upon one's total lack of ability to recognize the addictive voice and RR seems to be built upon one's ability to always recognize it......but I'm no expert).
What was in my mind when I put up that post was here was the FOUNDER of the program admitting that moderation didn't work for her. That doesn't mean it won't work for others but what really matters here is what the person trying to recover is willing to do / able to do.
Obviously, she wasn't able to moderate........even though she "thought" she could when she founded the program. I didn't look it up....and I won't because it doesn't really matter to me what her history is......but I'd be willing to bet she probably picked and chose what she liked from both AA and RR and never really committed to either program - so, in a way, she was once again trying to work her own version of recovery. AKA, a repeat of what led to the creation of MM.....and it didn't (obviously) work for her the second time around either.
I don't have any experience in RR but I can tell from what I've seen in 5 short years of AA meetings that EVERY single person I've seen who's gone back to drinking either didn't work the whole program or quit working it along the way.
What was in my mind when I put up that post was here was the FOUNDER of the program admitting that moderation didn't work for her. That doesn't mean it won't work for others but what really matters here is what the person trying to recover is willing to do / able to do.
Obviously, she wasn't able to moderate........even though she "thought" she could when she founded the program. I didn't look it up....and I won't because it doesn't really matter to me what her history is......but I'd be willing to bet she probably picked and chose what she liked from both AA and RR and never really committed to either program - so, in a way, she was once again trying to work her own version of recovery. AKA, a repeat of what led to the creation of MM.....and it didn't (obviously) work for her the second time around either.
I don't have any experience in RR but I can tell from what I've seen in 5 short years of AA meetings that EVERY single person I've seen who's gone back to drinking either didn't work the whole program or quit working it along the way.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: London
Posts: 1,384
Moderation for me is death by a 1000 cuts, slow extended torture.
Tried this so many times, and the hell of wanting more after a couple and the obsession with drink becomes manic.
Not drinking anything at all a 1000 times easier, well for me anyway.
But It may work for some, though I cant really see the point with it .
Tried this so many times, and the hell of wanting more after a couple and the obsession with drink becomes manic.
Not drinking anything at all a 1000 times easier, well for me anyway.
But It may work for some, though I cant really see the point with it .
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,451
Moderation management? Sounds fun! I can invite my friends over for burgers and moderation management. And when I go out to restaurants, instead of wasting my time enjoying food or conversations, I can manage my moderation. Good times!
Maybe that works for other people, but for me, abstinence is waaaaaaay better.
Maybe that works for other people, but for me, abstinence is waaaaaaay better.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 8,326
seems to me there was an experiment in the very late 60's early 70's by a married couple at the Norwalk Metropolitan Mental Hospital. Sobel? PhDs, I think. They tried to prove that through aversion therapy alcoholics could be taught to moderate. It was a huge failure.
the only reason I recall this is that my high school friend's father was a part of that experiment. He died from chronic alcoholism after numerous attempts to get well.
the only reason I recall this is that my high school friend's father was a part of that experiment. He died from chronic alcoholism after numerous attempts to get well.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by Dee74 
so why not cut it out of your life completely jojo - don't use it at all...wouldn't that be *really* controlling it?
D
D
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by ElegantlyWasted
Maybe some of us subconsciously still want what we really shouldn't have?
With that being said, your post brings two questions to my mind:
1. It's not a subconscious desire because you've voiced it and apparently attempted it. Whether you've been successful or not, only you know.
2. If you know that you "shouldn't have it", why flirt with the danger of trying moderation?
Again, not trying to judge, just pointing these facts out.
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by ElegantlyWasted
Maybe some of us subconsciously still want what we really shouldn't have?
With that being said, your post brings two questions to my mind:
1. It's not a subconscious desire because you've voiced it and apparently attempted it. Whether you've been successful or not, only you know.
2. If you know that you "shouldn't have it", why flirt with the danger of trying moderation?
Again, not trying to judge, just pointing these facts out.
SR Fan
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 7,910
Maybe some of us subconsciously still want what we really shouldn't have?
I can moderate - the problem is I don't want to. Knowing myself, sooner or later I would find an excuse to go just a teeny bit over the limit I set for myself, or make an exception to drinking X number of days because of a "special occasion."
It probably took me a year to be totally free of the obsession to drink. In the scheme of things, that's not really a huge price to pay. I just don't think you can get any better than being free from it altogether......
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by onlythetruth
I personally have nothing against MM and have no problem recommending that people who are considering a moderation path check it out. It's an interesting approach and I imagine it helps some.
I say that even though it didn't work for me. I tried it, and could not get past the first challenge, which was to abstain for a month. For me, anything that left open the option of drinking was doomed to failure. Nothing has ever worked for me other than an absolute commitment never to drink again (not drinking "just for today" didn't do much for me either, since it left open the option of drinking tomorrow).
The thing is that my month in MM helped me to see that I could not moderate. And the group gave me no judgment about that: their stance was "okay then, moderation obviously isn't for you, you're someone who needs to totally abstain". Nothing wrong with that.
I say that even though it didn't work for me. I tried it, and could not get past the first challenge, which was to abstain for a month. For me, anything that left open the option of drinking was doomed to failure. Nothing has ever worked for me other than an absolute commitment never to drink again (not drinking "just for today" didn't do much for me either, since it left open the option of drinking tomorrow).
The thing is that my month in MM helped me to see that I could not moderate. And the group gave me no judgment about that: their stance was "okay then, moderation obviously isn't for you, you're someone who needs to totally abstain". Nothing wrong with that.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by instant
We cannot will or train ourselves away from our biology. People with drinking problems seem to have a higher capacity to develop craving and that underpins ongoing consumption.
The other thing that seems to go along with this is wether you do or do not like "like" getting buzzed. If you don't you are probably less likely to become a problem drinker/ alcoholic.
That's my theory anyway.
My opinion is that Moderation is too much work and I have never been able to sustain it. Sobriety is sustainable, gets easier not harder with time. In my experience sobriety is a much better way to go.
The other thing that seems to go along with this is wether you do or do not like "like" getting buzzed. If you don't you are probably less likely to become a problem drinker/ alcoholic.
That's my theory anyway.
My opinion is that Moderation is too much work and I have never been able to sustain it. Sobriety is sustainable, gets easier not harder with time. In my experience sobriety is a much better way to go.
Blu**ed Lines...A ClockWork SR
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: AZ
Posts: 2,529
"With that being said, your post brings two questions to my mind:
1. It's not a subconscious desire because you've voiced it and apparently attempted it. Whether you've been successful or not, only you know."
Just 2 observations
1)Your #1 is not a question.
2)I was writing in general terms, not addressing my specific mindset. I was addressing the specific observation of a fellow member who observed that this thread has gotten surprisingly long. My specific mindset right now is "I overtly (consciously) want a drink, yet will do everything in my power not to drink for at least a month, and was and still am interested in the efficacy of such an approach."
1. It's not a subconscious desire because you've voiced it and apparently attempted it. Whether you've been successful or not, only you know."
Just 2 observations
1)Your #1 is not a question.
2)I was writing in general terms, not addressing my specific mindset. I was addressing the specific observation of a fellow member who observed that this thread has gotten surprisingly long. My specific mindset right now is "I overtly (consciously) want a drink, yet will do everything in my power not to drink for at least a month, and was and still am interested in the efficacy of such an approach."
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 162
Originally Posted by ElegantlyWasted
"With that being said, your post brings two questions to my mind:
1. It's not a subconscious desire because you've voiced it and apparently attempted it. Whether you've been successful or not, only you know."
Just 2 observations
1)Your #1 is not a question.
2)I was writing in general terms, not addressing my specific mindset. I was addressing the specific observation of a fellow member who observed that this thread has gotten surprisingly long. My specific mindset right now is "I overtly (consciously) want a drink, yet will do everything in my power not to drink for at least a month, and was and still am interested in the efficacy of such an approach."
1. It's not a subconscious desire because you've voiced it and apparently attempted it. Whether you've been successful or not, only you know."
Just 2 observations
1)Your #1 is not a question.
2)I was writing in general terms, not addressing my specific mindset. I was addressing the specific observation of a fellow member who observed that this thread has gotten surprisingly long. My specific mindset right now is "I overtly (consciously) want a drink, yet will do everything in my power not to drink for at least a month, and was and still am interested in the efficacy of such an approach."
Today's Muse
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West end
Posts: 1,081
I think we all want to hang on to the notion that one day we can control our drinking. We like to drink and don't want to give it up. I lived with that for years and struggled with my drinking for many more. It gets worse and worse and the progression takes you down. Before you know it death is knocking at your door. Do you answer it and invite him in? Acceptance is key. I had to accept the fact that I could no longer drink. In fact, there was nothing enjoyable about it. I hated what I was doing. I drank because I was addicted and I couldn't rid myself of the compulsion. It is a horrible situation. I hate what I do, yet I do the same thing everyday. That is truly insanity. I had to learn and apply tools to become successful in abstinence. It just doesn't happen over night. I read this type of thread over and over again. Yes, I get it. We want to hang on to the notion of being able to drink. I've been there. On the other hand, I realize it doesn't work, not for me. I tried it and tried it again. I may still be trying it if it weren't for that uninvited guest knocking at me door. It is a harsh reality, but we all have to reach it in our own time. The bad news is, some of us run out of time before we find acceptance. I have a friend who is struggling right now. I'm watching her slip away, swallowed up by the progression. What will she lose along the way? The ultimate price is her life. If she survives, she may be without her job, her family. I despise alcohol. When it is a simple beverage, no problems. When it destroys lives, it is the devil himself. Why do we hang on? Why is it so hard to let go of? It all boils down to the roll of the dice. If you give it up for good, you have nothing to lose. If you are willing to gamble...you will go places you never imagined and not one of them good.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,444
Originally Posted by Jojo2012
Because I don't cut anything out of my life just because I can't control it...if I gain weight, I don't stop eating. If I get a speeding ticket, I don't stop driving.
but fair enough Jojo
I'm not actually trying to change your mind - you seem pretty determined and I was too for many years - drinking was 'not going to beat me' - but the funny thing? it was beating me, all the time - every time I took a drink.
Giving up that struggle set me free
I do realise we're not all the same, and you may be a different kind of drinker to me.
You'll have to find that out like I did.
I sincerely wish you the best.
D
I'm here to learn!
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: I'm on it!
Posts: 2,038
I have to admit, I didn't read much of the replies here so this may be a bit of rehash.
Moderation Management probably works great for some people, but I know that would never work for me. I had an epiphany after being sober for about three months that I just didn't enjoy alcohol in the same way that others do (duh!). I've never been a one or two beers kind of guy. I was only ever happy drinking as much as I possibly could before passing out. My first drinking experiences were at parties as a teenager where the sole purpose was to get drunk and/or get laid, and I never really grew out of that. In fact, I don't like how it feels to just have a few: I just feel disoriented, a little less sharp and witty and I get a little sleepy. I'm only happy once I'm 6 or 7 in and then I have to keep going until I run out of booze or I just get antsy and irritable.
I would imagine that if someone had a relatively normal history of drinking, but then found themselves slipping into a period of heavier drinking and they were mindful enough to realize this and take action on it, then I suppose that MM may work for them. I do appreciate the fact that there is a wide spectrum of drinking and drinkers, but I find it to be true that once you pass a certain threshold of dependence that you are unable to return to a pattern of "normal" drinking ever again.
For me, trying to moderate is just as much of a hell as drinking myself silly every night.
Moderation Management probably works great for some people, but I know that would never work for me. I had an epiphany after being sober for about three months that I just didn't enjoy alcohol in the same way that others do (duh!). I've never been a one or two beers kind of guy. I was only ever happy drinking as much as I possibly could before passing out. My first drinking experiences were at parties as a teenager where the sole purpose was to get drunk and/or get laid, and I never really grew out of that. In fact, I don't like how it feels to just have a few: I just feel disoriented, a little less sharp and witty and I get a little sleepy. I'm only happy once I'm 6 or 7 in and then I have to keep going until I run out of booze or I just get antsy and irritable.
I would imagine that if someone had a relatively normal history of drinking, but then found themselves slipping into a period of heavier drinking and they were mindful enough to realize this and take action on it, then I suppose that MM may work for them. I do appreciate the fact that there is a wide spectrum of drinking and drinkers, but I find it to be true that once you pass a certain threshold of dependence that you are unable to return to a pattern of "normal" drinking ever again.
For me, trying to moderate is just as much of a hell as drinking myself silly every night.
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