kanamit

I did not intend tat post to sound offensive by the way; I just tried to make out that you can dress an insult as a compliment.

I do not have many answers let alone all of them.

BlueMoon

Religion is for people who are afraid of Hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there.

I LOVE that quote!

I've never taken it to be a judgement on/against either religion or spirituality - merely an attempt to express that there is a difference (no matter how slight) between the two.

When I first came into AA (back when meetings were in caves) this quote helped me understand what a "spiritual program" is - that yes, a Higher Power (ie: "God") is involved, but that it is different from attending religious services. Thank goodness because when I was brand new in AA, I was rather down on the whole "god-thing" . . . "religious" would have chased me straight OUT! I needed to understand what "spiritual" is. This quote did it for me.

That's *MY* take on it.

Blue

Jfanagle

I have never found that quote to be a denigration of "organized religion" nor do I feel qualified to judge the adherents of any religious activity. Perhaps I miss the point, but my take has always been that when we do things "religiously" we follow a set of rules or prescribed behavior, usually hoping to achieve a certain end result. Nothing wrong with the practice and certainly often achieves the desired result.

When I had to find a "spiritual answer" it was because I had found myself in a place, "hell if you choose that descriptor" and I needed a solution for an already existing problem. I wasn't able to follow a set of rules to "prevent" something, it had already occurred. It was necessary for me to establish a spiritual connection that could bring me back from an abyss that I had already fallen into.

If I had followed the rules that my Mother and her church had encouraged me to follow, in other words, "religiously" practiced the behavior that they encouraged, I may never have fallen into that abyss that some call Hell.

To my mind the saying is neither pejorative regarding religion nor is it a statement of the superiority of "spirituality," simply a statement of how each pattern of behavior fits certain situations.

Just my observation.

Jon

Terminally Unique

While true, surrendering to God "as you understand Him" was a well-known and long-used Oxford Group phrase that AA retained. This is readily apparent from "Bill's Story" in the BB, which recounts his meeting with Ebby Thacher. Contrary to AA lore, the phrase was not pulled out of a hat by Jimmy Burwell, and is not indigenous to AA.

Ranger

Respecfully, who cares? What is your intent in mentioning this?

Terminally Unique

I do, and also possibly anyone who is interested in AA's roots. 2GD was suggesting that this comes from outside religion, when in fact it comes straight from a Christian Protestant revival movement.

Ranger

Well, while we're spouting perceived suggestions as truth, your response suggests that because the concept came from the Oxford group and the Oxford group was affiliated with Christianity, then the concept is is somehow attributable to Christianity. This, of course, is hardly the case.

Terminally Unique

No. Frank Buchman’s Oxford Group movement was already on the outskirts of Christian theology even before AA began. While Buchman was a believing Christian, he strayed dramatically from tradition. AA might likewise be though of as being on the outskirts of Buchmanism. In this context, the true meaning of the slogan that started this thread becomes more clear.

langkah

Even if it bothers people who are not involved in AA, people in AA will probably continue using that line to help new people open their minds a bit more.

If we stopped doing and saying everything that bothered the uninvolved, there wouldn't be much left...and you wouldn't want that, would you?

BackToSquareOne

Most quotes and one-liners only have meaning in the context of a certain belief system. To make the assumption that they're meant to be deragotary of different ideologies is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

Ranger

Well then we agree the slogan does not stem from Christianity. I suspect G2D was suggesting this as well, in which case the agreement stands at three.

I think this thread has made clear this slogan has no true meaning.

Terminally Unique

Since many recoil at traditional religious injunctions against drunkenness, this line will undoubtedly continue to be used.

Terminally Unique

If this is what he meant, then yes.

surething

I'm neither spiritual nor religious, so the quote does not apply to me; however, I'm of the opinion that religion and spirituality are synonymous with one another. The root word of spirituality implies belief in a spirit or soul, an integral component to monotheism.

Threshold

I don't assume the quote is meant to be deragatory, in fact I tend to assume it is not meant to be so, but since we were asked what we think of it...whether it was intended to or not, it does smack of superiority.

I agree, in the context of an organization that makes a concerted effort to distinguish between religious and spiritual, it makes sense. But this discussion was not started in the AA forum, but placed where all were invited to comment according to their own context.

Threshold

Indeed it is this exact understanding that AA is based on. Do what we did to get the result that we got!

BlueMoon

Very interesting discussion!
My input with the aid of Wikipedia <Spirituality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia >

“ Whilst the terms spirituality and religion both relate to a search for an Absolute or God, and thus have much overlap,
there are also characteristic differences in their usage. Religion implies a particular faith tradition
that includes acceptance of a metaphysical or supernatural reality;
whereas spirituality is not necessarily bound to any particular religious tradition.
Thus William Irwin Thompson suggest that "religion is the form spirituality takes in civilization."

Those who speak of spirituality outside of religion often define themselves as "spiritual but not religious"
and generally believe in the existence of different "spiritual paths,"
emphasizing the importance of finding one's own individual path to spirituality.
According to one poll, about 24% of the United States population identifies itself as spiritual but not religious. “

Bright Blessings
Blue


ps William Irwin Thompson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BadCompany

I guess I should have qualified that a bit more on this thread. Religion and spirituality are not mutually exclusive, in fact while they are two different things they overlap into each others spheres of influence. I am as active in the church as I am in AA.

Threshold

My experience is that my religious practice helps me develop my spirituality, and some means of living what I've come to understand. My religious practice has been a useful guide and laboratory for my spiritual growth. It's not the only means by which I grow or practice my spirituality, but it is one I appreciate and that enhances my life.

My religion does not have the idea of a soul or afterlife, it is about this life, here and now. If there is a sense of it being about not going to hell, it is in the sense of making this life purposeful and satisfying, not insuring a particular eternal state of being. With that understanding, there is little dichotomy, I feel, between my experience of my religion and my experience of spirituality.

The means and ends are essentially the same.

A person does not need to have experienced hell in order to grow spiritually or to seek to grow spiritually.

The understanding of spirituality is based on a persons understanding of spirit. In my religion, what we experience as "spirit" is a function of the brain, not something supernatural or eternal.

bluoval

Although I haven't used the phrase personally, those I've heard say it I don't believe were necessarily misinformed or mal-intentioned. I believe we are largely a band of ego-driven individualists (12/12, pp. 146). I don't believe the upholding of Tradition Four has/will be threatened necessarily by such comments, or any comments I've heard to this effect. Rule 62 (12/12, pp. 149) might possibly apply to my over-concernment on such a phrase and what I think it means.