What do you think of this quote?
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Originally Posted by TheEnd 
I have attended church my whole life (for other people) and never got anything out of it. I now have a relationship with my higher power and speak to him on a daily basis, not just when I'm in the foxhole begging for help.
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Yep, it's pretty smug, but for this alcoholic and addict, it resonates for several reasons. AA ain't for everyone. If you can bore inside your skull and fight the reasons you drank, if you still have an ounce of tenacity left in you, if you can intellectualize and self-analyze why you are pouring booze on your problems instead of facing your problems, then AA isn't for you.
It's for people like me who needed much more than just a program or a method to quit drinking, but to face the inner truth that made us pour booze over everything, for those who had to live life numb because a warm blanket of apathy is all we could handle.
The easy part of of my sobriety is not drinking or taking drugs. Seriously. I can do that. But I want something more -- the happiness thing.
I'm not saying that those who get sober without AA aren't really alcoholic. I am saying this alcoholic became so hopelessly mired in feeling nothing that I had to shed ego and pride and self will and just buy into the concept that if I surrendered I could learn.
Much of the rewrite of AA literature took place to remove the Christian concepts so that Jews and Muslims and agnostics could fit in. The result, in my befuddled mind, is a very Zen like approach to life that speaks to this Dead Head.
That said, my tolerance is seriously waning for those who attack addiction programs, but AA teaches me that I need to just hunker down a bit and examine what's inside of me that makes me feel that way. It usually goes something like this: They're pissing me off. Why? Because I used to be them.
It's for people like me who needed much more than just a program or a method to quit drinking, but to face the inner truth that made us pour booze over everything, for those who had to live life numb because a warm blanket of apathy is all we could handle.
The easy part of of my sobriety is not drinking or taking drugs. Seriously. I can do that. But I want something more -- the happiness thing.
I'm not saying that those who get sober without AA aren't really alcoholic. I am saying this alcoholic became so hopelessly mired in feeling nothing that I had to shed ego and pride and self will and just buy into the concept that if I surrendered I could learn.
Much of the rewrite of AA literature took place to remove the Christian concepts so that Jews and Muslims and agnostics could fit in. The result, in my befuddled mind, is a very Zen like approach to life that speaks to this Dead Head.
That said, my tolerance is seriously waning for those who attack addiction programs, but AA teaches me that I need to just hunker down a bit and examine what's inside of me that makes me feel that way. It usually goes something like this: They're pissing me off. Why? Because I used to be them.
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To me..this sounds like a contradiction.
Spirituality is journey to self-discovery. A connectedness to yourself as well as to others. It's the discovery of a deeper sense of self and inner peace. An inner security that does not depend upon events or circumstances in the world around. Becoming less self-centered, less needy of the others' approval or recognition and become happier and more loving people. A state in which you are connected to God, nature, eachother and the deepest part of ourselves.
How can a "spiritual" anyone quote this when its so full of comparison and arrogance and be proud to do it?
Do I believe in my Catholic religion? Yes I do... Its how I grew up and its what gives me comfort and a sense of closeness.
Would I love to be a lot more spiritual? Heck yes! Whatever brings ME to MY happiness.
To me, it doesn't matter what you believe in. That's YOUR decision and right. Whatever lets you sleep comfortably at night. No one's is less or greater than. But don't tell me you're spiritual, yet say your hell is greater than mine in the same breath. I may not be going through what you are or went through..but thats not my life. My struggles are MY hell in MY life. But it also doesn't give me the right to say to someone who's suffered less, within MY standards, that my way is righteous because of what I've gone through.
Maybe its time to dig a little deeper for that spiritual, inner peace.
Spirituality is journey to self-discovery. A connectedness to yourself as well as to others. It's the discovery of a deeper sense of self and inner peace. An inner security that does not depend upon events or circumstances in the world around. Becoming less self-centered, less needy of the others' approval or recognition and become happier and more loving people. A state in which you are connected to God, nature, eachother and the deepest part of ourselves.
How can a "spiritual" anyone quote this when its so full of comparison and arrogance and be proud to do it?
Do I believe in my Catholic religion? Yes I do... Its how I grew up and its what gives me comfort and a sense of closeness.
Would I love to be a lot more spiritual? Heck yes! Whatever brings ME to MY happiness.
To me, it doesn't matter what you believe in. That's YOUR decision and right. Whatever lets you sleep comfortably at night. No one's is less or greater than. But don't tell me you're spiritual, yet say your hell is greater than mine in the same breath. I may not be going through what you are or went through..but thats not my life. My struggles are MY hell in MY life. But it also doesn't give me the right to say to someone who's suffered less, within MY standards, that my way is righteous because of what I've gone through.
Maybe its time to dig a little deeper for that spiritual, inner peace.
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Originally Posted by vinepest
My impression, based on how I've heard it used in the past, is that the distinction between "religion" and "spirituality" is emphasized because organized religion is commonly understood to be too-rigid, hypocritical, and/or otherwise inferior to a purer spiritual approach to godstuff. The precise boundary between religion and spirituality is never specified (in my experience anyway).
Of course I don't see why removing the organization from a religion is supposed to help. Whether a person is religious or merely "spiritual," it's still purely a matter of faith that his subjective experiences are being caused by the creator of the universe.
Of course I don't see why removing the organization from a religion is supposed to help. Whether a person is religious or merely "spiritual," it's still purely a matter of faith that his subjective experiences are being caused by the creator of the universe.
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Originally Posted by TheEnd
Somebody posted this on their Facebook wall
“Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there.”
After I did some googling, it seems that this is a popular saying in AA, although I have yet to hear it. What are your thoughts on this?
“Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there.”
After I did some googling, it seems that this is a popular saying in AA, although I have yet to hear it. What are your thoughts on this?
If we really think about it there have been millions of those practicing "religion" that could equally claim that they have been to hell on earth including millions of jews in the Nazi death camps. Jews do not even teach a literal hell as traditional Christianity teaches!
There are millions of people across the globe including completely innocent children dying of malnutrition and lack of clean water... that my friends is real hell on earth.
Addiction is hell...and for those that love the addict it is even more hellish because they do not have the luxury of drowning the pain in the escape of the drink or drug itself.
Any institutions that run by men will have their weaknesses and personally I am an organic person who believes in the simple church concept that is more in line with first century Christian faith and practice.
We are responsible for our own individual search for meaning and purpose and seeking out what we believe to be true about our Higher Power and what responsibilities that belief brings to our own lives.
Using care when we talk about others belief systems and belittling "religion" and its adherents is not kind nor wise in my opinion.... even when true.
My anonymous higher power is Jesus C. and he said we were to be salt and light and it is the truth in love that sets us free. He also said that the tongue is a deadly poison and we would give an account for every idle word!
If we could actually grasp that concept, take it seriously and actually practice it our idle words and silly sayings would probably fall by the wayside and we would be a lot more thoughtful in word and action.
In any event ... studying the world's religions and claims is a very worthwhile project that is both interesting and may help one determine what they really believe is true about a very serious subject... probably THE most important question of our individual lives!
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This thread deserves some level of scholarly input, so, for your consideration:
Conceptualizing Religion and Spirituality: Points of Commonality, Points of Departure — (PDF)
Conceptualizing Religion and Spirituality: Points of Commonality, Points of Departure — (Google Docs View)
Peter C. Hill, Kenneth II. Pargament, Ralph W. Hood, Jr., Michael E. McCullough, James P. Swyers, David B. Larson, Brian J. Zinnbauer
Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour, Volume 30, Issue 1, pages 51–77, March 2000
Conceptualizing Religion and Spirituality: Points of Commonality, Points of Departure — (PDF)
Conceptualizing Religion and Spirituality: Points of Commonality, Points of Departure — (Google Docs View)
Peter C. Hill, Kenneth II. Pargament, Ralph W. Hood, Jr., Michael E. McCullough, James P. Swyers, David B. Larson, Brian J. Zinnbauer
Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour, Volume 30, Issue 1, pages 51–77, March 2000
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I am a fallen Catholic. I sought spiritual solutions way before AA. I used LSD, Pscillocibin, Marijuana and of course Alcohol. They worked temporarily.
I half assed studied religions of the world and found much to be in common with respect to the treatment of our fellow human beings.
When I first heard this phrase in AA, it was somewhat of a flimsy reed to inspire me to move on and continue to apply the spiritual program of action in my life. Sort of like a team on the losing end of a football game - with time left in the game and no chance of winning at all - looking for SOMETHING to hold onto and gird themselves to play out the remaining time as best they can.
To me it was more of a "forget everything you think you know and move forward with this spiritual stuff". Then, with a new mind and an awakened spirit I can become aware that I've still a long way to go. A long road that probably will include the incorporation of religious ritual and rite into my daily practices. At the end I found a new sense of respect and admiration for practioners of religion. Their discipline, their faith.
Like the humble mother who prayed constantly and faithfully in her Catholic prayers and church attendences that her son might one day pull his head out of his ass and stop destroying the life he was given and sober up and do something with his life. So far I remain sober and on the path to spiritual growth, so maybe those prayers were answered ?
I recognize the arrogance in the statement because I was and can still be of arrogant mind. But there was a time when it was just a simple saying to help a deluded fool. I think it helped me once and can help again. It's the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. It's the spirit of willingness to submit oneself to a discipline and perhaps not the discipline or rite in and of itself that counts ?
I half assed studied religions of the world and found much to be in common with respect to the treatment of our fellow human beings.
When I first heard this phrase in AA, it was somewhat of a flimsy reed to inspire me to move on and continue to apply the spiritual program of action in my life. Sort of like a team on the losing end of a football game - with time left in the game and no chance of winning at all - looking for SOMETHING to hold onto and gird themselves to play out the remaining time as best they can.
To me it was more of a "forget everything you think you know and move forward with this spiritual stuff". Then, with a new mind and an awakened spirit I can become aware that I've still a long way to go. A long road that probably will include the incorporation of religious ritual and rite into my daily practices. At the end I found a new sense of respect and admiration for practioners of religion. Their discipline, their faith.
Like the humble mother who prayed constantly and faithfully in her Catholic prayers and church attendences that her son might one day pull his head out of his ass and stop destroying the life he was given and sober up and do something with his life. So far I remain sober and on the path to spiritual growth, so maybe those prayers were answered ?
I recognize the arrogance in the statement because I was and can still be of arrogant mind. But there was a time when it was just a simple saying to help a deluded fool. I think it helped me once and can help again. It's the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law. It's the spirit of willingness to submit oneself to a discipline and perhaps not the discipline or rite in and of itself that counts ?
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“Religion is for people who are scared to go to hell. Spirituality is for people who have already been there.”
I've heard this often over the years in AA and I can identify with it. Another great thing about AA (or any 12 Step program) is the option to choose a "GOD of my understanding"
That in itself goes against most Religions that I know.
I'm an alcoholic and naturally rail against authority or subservience even (especially) when the authorities agenda is in my best interest. I shoot my self in the foot naturally and without knowing it.
If i had to alter the original text to make it a little easier for my defective mind to understand, it would be "Religion is for normal people who are scared to go to Hell, Spirituality is the way out for alcoholics who have already been there"
I do truly identify with the original text and try to keep that "truth" in my heart.
Being an alcoholic I tend to take the simple truth and analyze it, rationalize it and water it down to suit me until I can't make out what the original message is because of my internally generated "pseudo" truths.
Sometimes I think that 2 + 2 = 5 and believe it...
Other times I know that 2 + 2 = 4 and I can't stand it.
Great post TheEnd, we need to be stimulated to think or we won't grow/learn/change.
This is a good thread to take what we need and leave the rest.. and still keep an open mind.
Bob
I've heard this often over the years in AA and I can identify with it. Another great thing about AA (or any 12 Step program) is the option to choose a "GOD of my understanding"
That in itself goes against most Religions that I know.
I'm an alcoholic and naturally rail against authority or subservience even (especially) when the authorities agenda is in my best interest. I shoot my self in the foot naturally and without knowing it.
If i had to alter the original text to make it a little easier for my defective mind to understand, it would be "Religion is for normal people who are scared to go to Hell, Spirituality is the way out for alcoholics who have already been there"
I do truly identify with the original text and try to keep that "truth" in my heart.
Being an alcoholic I tend to take the simple truth and analyze it, rationalize it and water it down to suit me until I can't make out what the original message is because of my internally generated "pseudo" truths.
Sometimes I think that 2 + 2 = 5 and believe it...
Other times I know that 2 + 2 = 4 and I can't stand it.
Great post TheEnd, we need to be stimulated to think or we won't grow/learn/change.
This is a good thread to take what we need and leave the rest.. and still keep an open mind.
Bob
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It's arrogant—and also insulting to anyone who subscribes to a religion.
It's part of the "I want my cake and eat it" mentality that says only you can say if you're an alcoholic, yet when you recover on your own you're told you never had a problem in the first place.
You must also bear in mind that the Bible does not actually say that anyone will burn in Hell so it's a non-argument. That idea is something Christendom added on as an afterthought way after the Bible was written. Conversely, the Bible likens dead people to that of someone who is asleep (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So this is yet another groundless, recovery group platitude.
It's part of the "I want my cake and eat it" mentality that says only you can say if you're an alcoholic, yet when you recover on your own you're told you never had a problem in the first place.
You must also bear in mind that the Bible does not actually say that anyone will burn in Hell so it's a non-argument. That idea is something Christendom added on as an afterthought way after the Bible was written. Conversely, the Bible likens dead people to that of someone who is asleep (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So this is yet another groundless, recovery group platitude.
Originally Posted by King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
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Good thread. Very interesting viewpoints on this.
For myself, I've always found the quote in question amusing, one of those AA slogans parroted a lot by folks in their first couple of years as if it contained real wisdom. Kind of like "today is a gift, that's why we call it the present", or "God can move mountains, but you might want to bring a shovel".
Don't get me wrong, I think many AA slogans DO contain real wisdom. "Don't take the first drink and you can't get drunk" is absolutely stellar, as is "play the tape through to the end" and of course the Shakespearean quote on the medallions, "To Thine Own Self Be True".
For myself, I've always found the quote in question amusing, one of those AA slogans parroted a lot by folks in their first couple of years as if it contained real wisdom. Kind of like "today is a gift, that's why we call it the present", or "God can move mountains, but you might want to bring a shovel".
Don't get me wrong, I think many AA slogans DO contain real wisdom. "Don't take the first drink and you can't get drunk" is absolutely stellar, as is "play the tape through to the end" and of course the Shakespearean quote on the medallions, "To Thine Own Self Be True".
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Very interesting discussion. While reading, something stuck out at me that I hadn't given much thought to at the start of this discussion.
This quote which pretty much dismisses religion in favor of spirituality, uses the concept of Hell, which IS one that stems from some RELIGIONS.
It's like if my Dad carved me a wooden spoon, and then I took it and started hitting him with it and told him he didn't know what he was doing.
I think coming to realize that things can be valid all on their own, without need to compare them to anything else or prove they are better than something else, IS a spiritual principle.
This quote which pretty much dismisses religion in favor of spirituality, uses the concept of Hell, which IS one that stems from some RELIGIONS.
It's like if my Dad carved me a wooden spoon, and then I took it and started hitting him with it and told him he didn't know what he was doing.
I think coming to realize that things can be valid all on their own, without need to compare them to anything else or prove they are better than something else, IS a spiritual principle.
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Originally Posted by lillyknitting
Can anyone explain to me what spiritual/spirituality actually means!
Religion has an important historical dimension, spirituality is most concerned with the present moment.
Religion often has a speculative quality, spirituality is entirely practical.
Religion focuses on God's relationship with humankind, Spirituality focuses on a persons relationship with God.
Religion is concerned with God's relationship with the universe, spirituality is focused on the way a person sees his own place in the universe.
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Originally Posted by BadCompany
Religion is concerned with the person of God, spirituality is concerned with what God does.
Religion has an important historical dimension, spirituality is most concerned with the present moment.
Religion often has a speculative quality, spirituality is entirely practical.
Religion focuses on God's relationship with humankind, Spirituality focuses on a persons relationship with God.
Religion is concerned with God's relationship with the universe, spirituality is focused on the way a person sees his own place in the universe.
Religion has an important historical dimension, spirituality is most concerned with the present moment.
Religion often has a speculative quality, spirituality is entirely practical.
Religion focuses on God's relationship with humankind, Spirituality focuses on a persons relationship with God.
Religion is concerned with God's relationship with the universe, spirituality is focused on the way a person sees his own place in the universe.
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Originally Posted by BadCompany
Religion is concerned with the person of God, spirituality is concerned with what God does.
Religion has an important historical dimension, spirituality is most concerned with the present moment.
Religion often has a speculative quality, spirituality is entirely practical.
Religion focuses on God's relationship with humankind, Spirituality focuses on a persons relationship with God.
Religion is concerned with God's relationship with the universe, spirituality is focused on the way a person sees his own place in the universe.
Religion has an important historical dimension, spirituality is most concerned with the present moment.
Religion often has a speculative quality, spirituality is entirely practical.
Religion focuses on God's relationship with humankind, Spirituality focuses on a persons relationship with God.
Religion is concerned with God's relationship with the universe, spirituality is focused on the way a person sees his own place in the universe.
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Originally Posted by BadCompany
Religion is concerned with the person of God, spirituality is concerned with what God does.
Religion has an important historical dimension, spirituality is most concerned with the present moment.
Religion often has a speculative quality, spirituality is entirely practical.
Religion focuses on God's relationship with humankind, Spirituality focuses on a persons relationship with God.
Religion is concerned with God's relationship with the universe, spirituality is focused on the way a person sees his own place in the universe.
Religion has an important historical dimension, spirituality is most concerned with the present moment.
Religion often has a speculative quality, spirituality is entirely practical.
Religion focuses on God's relationship with humankind, Spirituality focuses on a persons relationship with God.
Religion is concerned with God's relationship with the universe, spirituality is focused on the way a person sees his own place in the universe.
When a Mormon is doing their two years of preaching (?) they would fit the latter half of each of the remarks above.
I think I might start spouting my own homily:
"Ask someone a question while they're in AA. That's the only time someone has all the answers."
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