The Concept Of Powerlessness
Laozi Old Man
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 6,665
When I say "I am powerless", I don't mean I can not stop drinking. What I mean is I can not stay stopped. Sooner or later, sobriety itself will become so uncomfortable for me that I will need to drink again, because it was my only source of comfort.
What keeps me sober today is that which allows me to be comfortable in my own skin without a substance. Namely, the peace of mind, joy and sense of purpose that comes from spiritual awakenings.
Again, not drinking has nothing to do with why I am sober today.
What keeps me sober today is that which allows me to be comfortable in my own skin without a substance. Namely, the peace of mind, joy and sense of purpose that comes from spiritual awakenings.
Again, not drinking has nothing to do with why I am sober today.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by JohnBarleycorn 
Perhaps a good question would be - for those people, how do we recognize that we ourselves may not be qualified to help, and that we need to let someone else, with a different experience/perspective/method, give it a shot?
My own experience with this, in the AA arena, is limited. I have worked, not as a sponsor, but in a supportive role, with others F2F... AA offers a spiritual solution... If one is unwilling or unable to embrace the concept of a higher power and TRUST it to work in their life... Then AA will not succeed, because as you pointed out earlier, once a person has come to concede powerlessness, then, perhaps, they are in even more desperate straits...
It takes considerable skill and personal experience to bring such a person to a place where this will work. AA is non professional and relies on the integrity and competence of it's individual members. In a strong AA group, highly skilled and motivated people are readily found, because they want to be of service and do not run and hide, for it is vital to their own recovery.
But once an impasse is reached.... Where does this unfortunate turn... The state? Charitable organizations? Hospitals? Chances are they have already been utilized and their methods met failure as well. It was out of this situation, exactly that AA was born.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 567
I don't think the BB can be read skirmishly and then put down and form an opinion.
Those of us who have taken to the AA way of life, identify with the authors who wrote the book from their own expirience and recovered.
There is a paragraph in the Doctors Opinion, where Dr Silkworth illustrates that even he must have thrown his hands up in the air, shrugged and could not come up with a solution.
All he could do at the time is note his observations. From these observations came a theory at the time of a physical "alergy", or phenomenon of craving. At the time medical science could not prove the physical connection. Since then they have.
But Dr. Silkworth also added that the main problem with the alcoholic centres in his mind. Dr Carl Jung touched on this to. And both pointed out that something beyond human is where the chronic suffering alcoholics may find hope. Ofcourse they had opposition, but neither sides had a solution anyway.
This was the 1930's.
What if "Bill W" and "Dr Bob" ( two alcoholics ) met last week and the idea of one alcoholic talking to another alcoholic happened 75 years later.
That would have given medical science 75 ~ years more to come up with that same idea Bill and Bob came up with back then.
If AA started last week ( May 1, 2011 ), I would not be here cos my moment of truth came in 2007. That is 4 years too late.
Well, how many other suffering alkies that missed the idea of AA in 1931 did not get that chance cos they did not make it to 1935?
Concept of Powerless can be derived from this illustration in the BB:
There are 3 sections starting from Moderate Drinkers, Hard Drinkers and Real Alcoholic.
The key words are in hard drinker and real alcoholic
In the hard drinker section, the key is becomes operative
operative
I don't have operative
Section that says, real alcoholic
lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.
In that statement, lose all control is because there is no operative
IT IS NOT THERE. No "Off Switch Lever". Zilch.
That's what seperates the real alcoholic from the rest.
A hard drinker can drink more than the real alcoholic cos the real alcoholic is in a mess while the hard drinker may be drunk, but not out of control.
I know, once I take that drink, 2 things happen and not in the same order,
the 2 things is a sudden change of personality and the craving to want more.
or, the craving to want more and that sudden change of personality.
I have no power to stop this once alcohol is in my body. I know this from my own expirience.
But there is more !
My mind tells me it's OK, I CAN drink more, I just won't drink too much this time, we all feel this way.
And we want more of that because there is no sense of reason no matter what anyone says, it's not operative.
No one told me anything, I read this after my first meeting in AA.
Why was something written in 1939 still apparent to me in 2007 ?
And who is to say this is not apparent to someone who reads it for the first time tommorow considering alcohol is alcohol in chemical structre, same as it was in 1935 and milleniums before then?
Those of us who have taken to the AA way of life, identify with the authors who wrote the book from their own expirience and recovered.
There is a paragraph in the Doctors Opinion, where Dr Silkworth illustrates that even he must have thrown his hands up in the air, shrugged and could not come up with a solution.
All he could do at the time is note his observations. From these observations came a theory at the time of a physical "alergy", or phenomenon of craving. At the time medical science could not prove the physical connection. Since then they have.
But Dr. Silkworth also added that the main problem with the alcoholic centres in his mind. Dr Carl Jung touched on this to. And both pointed out that something beyond human is where the chronic suffering alcoholics may find hope. Ofcourse they had opposition, but neither sides had a solution anyway.
This was the 1930's.
What if "Bill W" and "Dr Bob" ( two alcoholics ) met last week and the idea of one alcoholic talking to another alcoholic happened 75 years later.
That would have given medical science 75 ~ years more to come up with that same idea Bill and Bob came up with back then.
If AA started last week ( May 1, 2011 ), I would not be here cos my moment of truth came in 2007. That is 4 years too late.
Well, how many other suffering alkies that missed the idea of AA in 1931 did not get that chance cos they did not make it to 1935?
Concept of Powerless can be derived from this illustration in the BB:
There are 3 sections starting from Moderate Drinkers, Hard Drinkers and Real Alcoholic.
The key words are in hard drinker and real alcoholic
In the hard drinker section, the key is becomes operative
operative
I don't have operative
Section that says, real alcoholic
lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.
In that statement, lose all control is because there is no operative
IT IS NOT THERE. No "Off Switch Lever". Zilch.
That's what seperates the real alcoholic from the rest.
A hard drinker can drink more than the real alcoholic cos the real alcoholic is in a mess while the hard drinker may be drunk, but not out of control.
I know, once I take that drink, 2 things happen and not in the same order,
the 2 things is a sudden change of personality and the craving to want more.
or, the craving to want more and that sudden change of personality.
I have no power to stop this once alcohol is in my body. I know this from my own expirience.
But there is more !
My mind tells me it's OK, I CAN drink more, I just won't drink too much this time, we all feel this way.
And we want more of that because there is no sense of reason no matter what anyone says, it's not operative.
No one told me anything, I read this after my first meeting in AA.
Why was something written in 1939 still apparent to me in 2007 ?
And who is to say this is not apparent to someone who reads it for the first time tommorow considering alcohol is alcohol in chemical structre, same as it was in 1935 and milleniums before then?
BB- first edition from pages 20-21
Page 20
How many times people have said to us: "I can take it or leave it alone. Why can't he?" "Why don't you drink like a gentleman or quit?" "That fellow can't handle his liquor." "Why don't you try beer and wine?" "Lay off the hard stuff." "His will power must be weak." "He could stop if he wanted to." "She's such a sweet girl, I should think he'd stop for her sake." "The doctor told him that if he ever drank again it would kill him, but there he is all lit up again."
Now these are commonplace observations on drinkers which we hear all the time. Back of them is a world of ignorance and misunderstanding. We see that these expressions refer to people whose reactions are very different from ours.
Moderate drinkers have little trouble in giving up liquor entirely if they have good reason for it. They can take it or leave it alone.
Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to gradually impair
Page 21
him physically and mentally. It may cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason - ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor - becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention.
But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.
Here is the fellow who has been puzzling you, especially in his lack of control. He does absurd, incredible, tragic things while drinking. He is a real Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.note He is seldom mildly intoxicated. He is always more or less insanely drunk. His disposition while drinking resembles his normal nature but little. He may be one of the finest fellows in the world. Yet let him drink for a day, and he frequently becomes disgustingly, and even dangerously anti-social.
Page 20
How many times people have said to us: "I can take it or leave it alone. Why can't he?" "Why don't you drink like a gentleman or quit?" "That fellow can't handle his liquor." "Why don't you try beer and wine?" "Lay off the hard stuff." "His will power must be weak." "He could stop if he wanted to." "She's such a sweet girl, I should think he'd stop for her sake." "The doctor told him that if he ever drank again it would kill him, but there he is all lit up again."
Now these are commonplace observations on drinkers which we hear all the time. Back of them is a world of ignorance and misunderstanding. We see that these expressions refer to people whose reactions are very different from ours.
Moderate drinkers have little trouble in giving up liquor entirely if they have good reason for it. They can take it or leave it alone.
Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to gradually impair
Page 21
him physically and mentally. It may cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason - ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor - becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention.
But what about the real alcoholic? He may start off as a moderate drinker; he may or may not become a continuous hard drinker; but at some stage of his drinking career he begins to lose all control of his liquor consumption, once he starts to drink.
Here is the fellow who has been puzzling you, especially in his lack of control. He does absurd, incredible, tragic things while drinking. He is a real Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.note He is seldom mildly intoxicated. He is always more or less insanely drunk. His disposition while drinking resembles his normal nature but little. He may be one of the finest fellows in the world. Yet let him drink for a day, and he frequently becomes disgustingly, and even dangerously anti-social.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 222
I have SOME reservations about the wording of it, but I also still drink...coincidence? I think there is great validity to the first step, it basically says if you have admitted that you have repeated issues with alcohol then you should maintain a high level of vigilance (abstinence). I think its incredibly valid, and has room for interpretation (you dont have to take it 100% literally).
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
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Thank you
others that quoted them are also gone.
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Last edited by CarolD; 05-07-2011 at 06:42 PM.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 873
Reading Pete55's post, I kind of take away that according to AA you don't really understand the concept of powerlessness unless you're a "real alcoholic", and only "real alcoholics" are powerless.
I'm not hung up on labels or anything, I've said many times that I don't really care if I fit someone else's definition of alcoholic, I just want to live life without it.
But am I wrong in my interpretation of that line of thinking in AA? Just curious.
I'm not hung up on labels or anything, I've said many times that I don't really care if I fit someone else's definition of alcoholic, I just want to live life without it.
But am I wrong in my interpretation of that line of thinking in AA? Just curious.
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 162
I have always hated to admit that I was powerless over anything. I've went through life manipulating people and situations to do/become what I either personally wanted, or earnestly felt was best. To make matters worse for myself in the long run, I proved relatively successful at this for a long time. This proved a hardship when I repeatedly attempted to control my drinking.
I am powerless over alcohol once I ingest it. I most likely could have a few drinks tonight and have little-to-no consequences. I might be successsful at this several times, but I know (per my track record) that for me I would soon be drunk and (1) in jail, (2) in the hospital, (3) dead. It's happened too many times for me to convince myself that it would work out any different this time. Obviously I've yet to die, but its a logical progression.
I, too, do not believe that I am powerless over alcohol until I knowingly and willingly drink it. I make that decision based on my mental, emotional and spiritual state of mind at that time. But once I do so, I usually cannot control myself and often force others to do so. As a blackout drinker, this is not hard for me to rationalize. I often can't remember what I did after a binge, so how in the hell can I believe that I was in control of myself and anything but powerless over alcohol.
I attend AA and attempt to participate in the program as instructed. I do this because for me, it was "the last house on the block". I couldn't quit drinking on my own and I couldnt competently moderate my drinking. I had tried both. I've noticed that different AA groups have variations on the program to some degree. I've been told that I'm powerless over alcohol (I agree to the extent above), people, places, things and situations. Personally, I believe that I can't control what other people do, nor how certain situations play out. I can however attempt to influence the actions and/or outcome of both, so I don't consider myself powerless over either. Now whether I should attempt to influence either often comes into question, but my option to do so orevents me from being "powerless". But, as for alcohol, I concede defeat.
I am powerless over alcohol once I ingest it. I most likely could have a few drinks tonight and have little-to-no consequences. I might be successsful at this several times, but I know (per my track record) that for me I would soon be drunk and (1) in jail, (2) in the hospital, (3) dead. It's happened too many times for me to convince myself that it would work out any different this time. Obviously I've yet to die, but its a logical progression.
I, too, do not believe that I am powerless over alcohol until I knowingly and willingly drink it. I make that decision based on my mental, emotional and spiritual state of mind at that time. But once I do so, I usually cannot control myself and often force others to do so. As a blackout drinker, this is not hard for me to rationalize. I often can't remember what I did after a binge, so how in the hell can I believe that I was in control of myself and anything but powerless over alcohol.
I attend AA and attempt to participate in the program as instructed. I do this because for me, it was "the last house on the block". I couldn't quit drinking on my own and I couldnt competently moderate my drinking. I had tried both. I've noticed that different AA groups have variations on the program to some degree. I've been told that I'm powerless over alcohol (I agree to the extent above), people, places, things and situations. Personally, I believe that I can't control what other people do, nor how certain situations play out. I can however attempt to influence the actions and/or outcome of both, so I don't consider myself powerless over either. Now whether I should attempt to influence either often comes into question, but my option to do so orevents me from being "powerless". But, as for alcohol, I concede defeat.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 567
I'm not hung up on labels or anything, I've said many times that I don't really care if I fit someone else's definition of alcoholic, I just want to live life without it.
where the light is
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,763
Powerless to stop on my own - permanently.
Willpower didn't work.
Self-help books didn't work.
Counselling didn't work.
AA = 12 steps = Higher Power did.
And in my experience, I didn't need someone to tell me I was powerless over alcohol to justify my drinking. I managed that just fine on my own. Just another cop-out.
Willpower didn't work.
Self-help books didn't work.
Counselling didn't work.
AA = 12 steps = Higher Power did.
And in my experience, I didn't need someone to tell me I was powerless over alcohol to justify my drinking. I managed that just fine on my own. Just another cop-out.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: SoCal CA
Posts: 1,319
Just a hypothetical question. If you suddenly found out through some scientific discovery tomorrow that there was no such thing as your HP of your own choosing, would you automatically go back to drinking? Would you lose all the power that you gained through your HP during your spiritual awakening. Basically would you be powerless again? Would you give up?
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Wappingers Falls, NY
Posts: 618
Re:The Concept Of Powerlessness Thanks...BackToSquareOne for the topic.
I believe there are consequences at stake here, far beyond the thought of the first drink and a recovering alcoholic wouldn't risk taking that first drink unless he knows where that will lead. Powerlessness is not just a concept but a stark reminder of what could eventually happen when we trigger the allergy known as alcoholism. The first step says and I'm quoting here from the 12&12: "Alcohol now becomes the rapacious creditor, it bleeds us of all self-sufficiency and all will to resist its demands. Once this stark fact is accepted, our bankruptcy as going human concerns is complete". How true...talk about powerlessness.
The principle of step 1 sums it up nicely and I'm quoting here: "The principle that we shall find no enduring strength until we first admit complete defeat is the main taproot from which our whole Society has sprung and flowered". Let’s forget powerlessness for a second and focus our attention on defeatism instead. I'll readily admit that I can't drink responsibly and I practice my defeatism by attending meetings. My sponsor calls it the “Department of Defeat” and rightfully so. I'm admitting my powerlessness over alcohol every time I attend a meeting. The day I give the power of persuasion back to its rightful owner is the day I stop attending meetings; which for recovering alcoholics means "the disease of alcoholism". That is not a good place and if I've treaded there at all, then I'm missing the point and have forgotten what it means to be powerless -period.
Step 1 goes on to talk about the challenges of admitting defeatism. They say we revolt…especially over the thought of being powerless over anything –which includes alcohol. If we had self confidence than we wouldn’t’ have to worry about having “A Drink” at all, would we? (The power of persuasion at work, which I believe you talked about). The first step sums it up so brilliantly once again when it says: “Then we had been told that so far as alcohol is concerned, self-confidence was no good whatever; in fact, it was a total liability. Our sponsors declared that we were the victims of a mental obsession so subtly powerful that no amount of human willpower could break it”. How true…that's all the convincing I'll ever need. what I do know is this: I have a disease called alcoholism which has no known cure, only “A daily reprieve contingent upon my spiritual conditioning”.
Finally…I must return to the first step for a final thought, which, once again, sums it up brilliantly when it says: “Under the lash of alcoholism, we are driven to A.A., and there we discover the fatal nature of our situation. Then, and only then, do we become as open-minded to conviction and as willing to listen as the dying can be. We stand ready to do anything which will lift the merciless obsession from us”. Amen…thanks for reminding me of how powerless we can become.
~God bless~
All quotes are from "The Twelve and Twelve" of "AA"
I believe there are consequences at stake here, far beyond the thought of the first drink and a recovering alcoholic wouldn't risk taking that first drink unless he knows where that will lead. Powerlessness is not just a concept but a stark reminder of what could eventually happen when we trigger the allergy known as alcoholism. The first step says and I'm quoting here from the 12&12: "Alcohol now becomes the rapacious creditor, it bleeds us of all self-sufficiency and all will to resist its demands. Once this stark fact is accepted, our bankruptcy as going human concerns is complete". How true...talk about powerlessness.
The principle of step 1 sums it up nicely and I'm quoting here: "The principle that we shall find no enduring strength until we first admit complete defeat is the main taproot from which our whole Society has sprung and flowered". Let’s forget powerlessness for a second and focus our attention on defeatism instead. I'll readily admit that I can't drink responsibly and I practice my defeatism by attending meetings. My sponsor calls it the “Department of Defeat” and rightfully so. I'm admitting my powerlessness over alcohol every time I attend a meeting. The day I give the power of persuasion back to its rightful owner is the day I stop attending meetings; which for recovering alcoholics means "the disease of alcoholism". That is not a good place and if I've treaded there at all, then I'm missing the point and have forgotten what it means to be powerless -period.
Step 1 goes on to talk about the challenges of admitting defeatism. They say we revolt…especially over the thought of being powerless over anything –which includes alcohol. If we had self confidence than we wouldn’t’ have to worry about having “A Drink” at all, would we? (The power of persuasion at work, which I believe you talked about). The first step sums it up so brilliantly once again when it says: “Then we had been told that so far as alcohol is concerned, self-confidence was no good whatever; in fact, it was a total liability. Our sponsors declared that we were the victims of a mental obsession so subtly powerful that no amount of human willpower could break it”. How true…that's all the convincing I'll ever need. what I do know is this: I have a disease called alcoholism which has no known cure, only “A daily reprieve contingent upon my spiritual conditioning”.
Finally…I must return to the first step for a final thought, which, once again, sums it up brilliantly when it says: “Under the lash of alcoholism, we are driven to A.A., and there we discover the fatal nature of our situation. Then, and only then, do we become as open-minded to conviction and as willing to listen as the dying can be. We stand ready to do anything which will lift the merciless obsession from us”. Amen…thanks for reminding me of how powerless we can become.
~God bless~
All quotes are from "The Twelve and Twelve" of "AA"
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 567
Just a hypothetical question. If you suddenly found out through some scientific discovery tomorrow that there was no such thing as your HP of your own choosing, would you automatically go back to drinking? Would you lose all the power that you gained through your HP during your spiritual awakening. Basically would you be powerless again? Would you give up?
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne
I've often felt that the concept of being powerless over alcohol was a copout, an excuse of sorts for an aberrant behavior. Do we say that the overweight person is powerless over food, the criminal powerless over their crime of choice, the smoker powerless over nicotene etc. etc.
In my drinking days I always found it very hard to stop once I started but it was still my bad choice to start. In retrospect I still have a hard time understanding why I made the same mistake (drinking) over and over again when I knew what the end result would be.
We can get addicted to a lot of things but does it follow that we are powerless over them? Can we surrender to an addiction without claiming to be powerless over whatever the addiction happens to be? Any thoughts?
In my drinking days I always found it very hard to stop once I started but it was still my bad choice to start. In retrospect I still have a hard time understanding why I made the same mistake (drinking) over and over again when I knew what the end result would be.
We can get addicted to a lot of things but does it follow that we are powerless over them? Can we surrender to an addiction without claiming to be powerless over whatever the addiction happens to be? Any thoughts?
However, this philosophical approach should not be confused with the unequivocal, empirical "truth". It is simply a way of looking at things that helps some people and not others. There are many people--and I am one of them--who find the concept unhelpful (and even damaging, when others with control over the person insist that this conceptualization is the only possible way to view things).
Fortunately, there are recovery programs and pathways that are not based on the Powerlessness concept. You do not have to believe you are Powerless to get sober.
OTT
Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 567
na na na,
it's, poweless over alcohol. Why don't you complete the illusatration ?
The way some of you like to interpret this, when the word "powerless" is selected to illustrate your agenda, seems global, both physical and moral.
No,
it's ( the word "powerless) used for alcohol, that alcohol's chemical attrubutes overwhelm the normal functions of the liver, pancreus during metabolisation, and the effect it has on brains cells to percieve what is happening once the alcohol reaches the brain. It is not saying powerless as a moral issue, it's physical.
If you don't have this issue, then you don't have a point to offer the suffering who is trying to find a way out of the drinking dilema. It's as if you are illsutrating that to admit powerless as whimpish?
Excuse me sir, it takes more guts to admit defeat at something like a liquid of fortified grape than to go on destroying body cells and wind up dead in the gutter. Cos that where it gets to.
And what then, get buried in full honors and martydom by the grape growers?
it's, poweless over alcohol. Why don't you complete the illusatration ?
The way some of you like to interpret this, when the word "powerless" is selected to illustrate your agenda, seems global, both physical and moral.
No,
it's ( the word "powerless) used for alcohol, that alcohol's chemical attrubutes overwhelm the normal functions of the liver, pancreus during metabolisation, and the effect it has on brains cells to percieve what is happening once the alcohol reaches the brain. It is not saying powerless as a moral issue, it's physical.
If you don't have this issue, then you don't have a point to offer the suffering who is trying to find a way out of the drinking dilema. It's as if you are illsutrating that to admit powerless as whimpish?
Excuse me sir, it takes more guts to admit defeat at something like a liquid of fortified grape than to go on destroying body cells and wind up dead in the gutter. Cos that where it gets to.
And what then, get buried in full honors and martydom by the grape growers?
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 224
I think all of these views are valid and fascinating. In the end isn't it whatever works for the individual? I mean, sober is empirically sober. The debate over what powerlessness is on a philosophical level is great. But are we really just debating whether the sun should be colored with the lemon-colored or buttercup-colored crayon? In the end it is just nice someone drew a sun.
Honestly I can't grip how I perceive powerlessness in alcoholism for myself. Sometimes it is intriguing. Other times I feel it is a hoax. In some cultures they don't think there is something wrong with the alcoholic, just the alcohol. It is hard to explain, but very different from the concept of it being a disease. Not that I'm saying it isn't. I'm saying I don't know what it is . . .but I think it may be sunny today.
Honestly I can't grip how I perceive powerlessness in alcoholism for myself. Sometimes it is intriguing. Other times I feel it is a hoax. In some cultures they don't think there is something wrong with the alcoholic, just the alcohol. It is hard to explain, but very different from the concept of it being a disease. Not that I'm saying it isn't. I'm saying I don't know what it is . . .but I think it may be sunny today.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 581
I agree with Supercrew, the issue is not about what happens once we ingest alcohol. There is violent agreement in most quarters about the physical nature of alcoholism, the inability to control consumption once alcohol has been introduced into the body.
"Powerlessness before the first drink" is where lines are drawn in this debate. I respect that for many it is a difficult or unacceptable premise-- it defies logic and introduces an almost mystical or magical force into an otherwise neat and understandable equation. The concept that an inanimate substance swirling in a bottle holds sway over my mind while outside my body requires some suspension of logic.
And this is why it's so critical for me to understand that it's more than that. I don't crave alcohol, per se, I crave the relief it provides. I'm powerless over my ravenous need to feel a certain way-- high, relieved, floating, at peace, sane. So in a sober state, I'm prey to the misery and distress of untreated alcoholism-- existence, putting one foot in front of the other, breathing, become nearly untenable. My mind and body, and my sick spirit, have been conditioned to seek the short-term medicinal effect of alcohol, despite the knowledge of longer-term consequences. Because the longer-term consequences can always be offset by short-term relief. It's the criminally insane version of pay-it-forward.
This is why an assessment of my sobriety is not "am I drinking" it's "how's my thinking?" Ideally, I'm doing very little thinking. I'm in the moment, my soul and mind are aligned with my feet. I'm present. I'm of service to others. I'm in the sunlight of the spirit that's relieved me of my insanity.
"Powerlessness before the first drink" is where lines are drawn in this debate. I respect that for many it is a difficult or unacceptable premise-- it defies logic and introduces an almost mystical or magical force into an otherwise neat and understandable equation. The concept that an inanimate substance swirling in a bottle holds sway over my mind while outside my body requires some suspension of logic.
And this is why it's so critical for me to understand that it's more than that. I don't crave alcohol, per se, I crave the relief it provides. I'm powerless over my ravenous need to feel a certain way-- high, relieved, floating, at peace, sane. So in a sober state, I'm prey to the misery and distress of untreated alcoholism-- existence, putting one foot in front of the other, breathing, become nearly untenable. My mind and body, and my sick spirit, have been conditioned to seek the short-term medicinal effect of alcohol, despite the knowledge of longer-term consequences. Because the longer-term consequences can always be offset by short-term relief. It's the criminally insane version of pay-it-forward.
This is why an assessment of my sobriety is not "am I drinking" it's "how's my thinking?" Ideally, I'm doing very little thinking. I'm in the moment, my soul and mind are aligned with my feet. I'm present. I'm of service to others. I'm in the sunlight of the spirit that's relieved me of my insanity.
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by Supercrew
Just a hypothetical question. If you suddenly found out through some scientific discovery tomorrow that there was no such thing as your HP of your own choosing, would you automatically go back to drinking? Would you lose all the power that you gained through your HP during your spiritual awakening. Basically would you be powerless again? Would you give up?
My HP doesn't specifically and magically make me not drink. It's not like that. That would be a cheap and gross use of His power, self centered in the extreme.
No, in my experience, it's not some sort of even trade... it's much, much, more than that.
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Originally Posted by JohnBarleycorn
I've worked with several of the "constitutionally incapables" and sometimes they make a quick turnaround.
I have worked with guys who might meet that description in the BB. I'm not even sure what is being described. But a couple of guys I've worked with have had some other mental health issues that involve these paranoid fantasies and delusions. The meds get off or they get out of balance, and they start thinking that people are out to get them, they can't rust anyone, etc. Those folks might be constitutionally incapable of seeing the truth.
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